Build a doe factory to create a buck factory

[bwoods11]

I have a next door neighbor who owns 1200 acres. A mile wide and two miles long. He has given me permission to hunt 100 acres adjacent to my land. His land is covered with deer - and plenty decent bucks. I have ridden through his property of an evening and seen over 200 deer. The land is about half wooded and half cow pasture. Besides me, he lets two guys hunt the rest of the property - bow only - if you kill it you mount it.

I cant explain in writing how many deer are on this property. Point being, he does nothing intentionally for deer other than minimize hunting pressure. He plants fescue. He sprays all broadleafs to keep his pastures clear of weeds. 270 head of cattle on the property. Continuous human activity - yet the place is covered up with deer. The owner does not hunt. Hard hunted land all around the 1200 acres. Nowhere on the property is farther than 1/2 mile from other’s hunting land.

Point being - you dont have to be a deer genius - or even care about deer - to have an excellent deer herd.

I have a neighbor with similar high deer numbers in Minnesota, except it’s 440 acres. The most prime habitat I’ve seen. But zero crop/food plots. So we plant a lot of food on our 52 acres and draw in the deer (high doe numbers).

You’d swear he’s Grizzly Adams as he drives his electric cart around the land and the deer just stand there and watch him.

Either way he doesn’t do anything for the deer, but has the highest deer numbers I’ve seen (at least in Minnesota hunting). Bucks, does, fawns, everything!

 

[SwampCat]

We use a good amount of korean lespedeza in some of our pastures and will drill in winter rye in addition to normal broadleaf control. Some hay meadows are native grass some are or where red clove before we started row cropping 150 acres. Your neighbor likely has a lot more going on than just fescue in those pastures if I was a betting man. I’m currently trying to figure what to over seed into a 50 acre poor quality native grass pasture to improve its feed value. Right now I’m leaning towards frost seeding some of the Durano White clover I’ve been fooling with into that 50 acres it will likely cost me $1400 or so to seed it. I may yet go a different route and plant something else idk yet.

My durana clover has not made it through this heat and drought this year

 

[Brian662]

I might be in the minority on this, but I believe Sturgis has a great handle on the market for landowners in the upper Midwest who own between 20 and 200 acres. I believe that is the lion's share of the demographic he caters to and his principles are solid for those guys.
If you fall into that demographic (I do), you likely don't have enough open acres to have full season food and if you do have those acres, you are likely better transitioning that into better cover or more fall food (depending on dpsm numbers in your area). There is nothing wrong with letting the neighboring farmers or hunters feed deer in the summer with their beans/alfalfa, it really is preferable in my cases. You (me) don't have enough acres to foolishly think you're meeting the herd's needs year round anyways, so focus on the portion of the season when deer are most vulnerable - the fall.

It makes perfect sense to me and I believe he lays it out in ways that are easy for the layman (me) to understand which is why he has such a big following. His hunting strategy and tactics are often repetitive but considering they're free, it's hard to beat.

Where he loses me is the philosophical changes he has made over the years and especially now that he has a food plot seed company. Several things he said for years as gospel, he literally changed 180° in order to sell seed. Burned some industry bridges along the way and the sales pitch in every video gets tiresome.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

Wind Gypsy: I was referring to Clover/Alfalfa, especially Alfalfa. Is helpful because it frees up more acreage for Fall/Winter food.....helps keep does (factory lol) and bucks on my land and not leaving for neighbors that provide Fall/Winter food (pretty serious whitetail hunting areas with good soils and big ag nearby during the spring/summer/early fall).

Makes total sense to me if a guy doesn’t have sufficient acres in fall plots to keep the cupboards full until season is over to not want to limit acreage in order to have perennial clover or alfalfa that’s going to go dormant earlier.

 

[b116757]

My durana clover has not made it through this heat and drought this year

I frost seeded mine last winter and it has done very well so far. I can’t wait for September when it will likely really take off as it starts cooling off this fall.

 

[drycreek]

I think that is a problem with the so called deer consultants is they dont quantify a lot of their comments. If he would have said - summer is a time of plenty - up north - there may have been more accuracy to his statement. Summer time in the deep south with continual temperatures over 100 degrees and little to no rain - we are quickly drying out - and it is going to get worse. Summer is our stress period.

A lot of folks who are just getting into habitat management believe everything that these guys say - but I do know it is extremely difficult to quantify every single statement. I worry much more about my Aug/Sep food supply than my Jan/Feb food supply.

I’m with you, everything is drier than a popcorn fart here, been a month and a half since our last rain and temps of a hundred degrees for almost that long. There is no “one size fits all” template for desirable and nutritious food plots, or even habitat for that matter. The country is too diverse for that. What works here won’t work everywhere. A good example is brassicas. Deer on my places will not eat them, period. I’ve planted them and they go untouched, even though they are a heavy draw in the North. I planted purple top turnips a couple times and nothing touched them, tops or bulbs. I pulled some of them up and the hogs wouldn’t even eat them, and they will eat nearly anything, including each other. I watch Dr. Woods’ videos but take them with a grain of salt and try to adapt them to my uses.

 

[SwampCat]

I do have to give credit where credit is due - I read the doe factory article by sturgis where he recommended against creating a doe factory. I wanted to increase my doe numbers - and I did what he said not to do. No doubt, he did know what it takes to create a doe factory. In 2010 or 2011 or somewhere back then I had four does on a camera survey. Not sure when I read about the doe factory from sturgis - five or six years ago maybe - but last year’s doe numbers were right around 30 to 35. That is a pretty healthy increase from 4 to 35 does in 11 years. Plus fawns and bucks

 

[Brian662]

I’m with you, everything is drier than a popcorn fart here, been a month and a half since our last rain and temps of a hundred degrees for almost that long. There is no “one size fits all” template for desirable and nutritious food plots, or even habitat for that matter. The country is too diverse for that. What works here won’t work everywhere. A good example is brassicas. Deer on my places will not eat them, period. I’ve planted them and they go untouched, even though they are a heavy draw in the North. I planted purple top turnips a couple times and nothing touched them, tops or bulbs. I pulled some of them up and the hogs wouldn’t even eat them, and they will eat nearly anything, including each other. I watch Dr. Woods’ videos but take them with a grain of salt and try to adapt them to my uses.

Do you plant them in standalone fields or mix them up near other desirable crops. Sometimes all it takes is for a few deer to realize they are palatable and the rest of the herd begins to feed on them. One method would be to plant strips of brassicas inside crops they normally prefer; clover, cereals, etc. Normally they will give the new food a try.

Have a property down the road that has taken 4 years to get them eating the brassicas a steady amount which has increased year over year. Plenty goes to wasted every spring, so I've planted less of them to find the sweet spot. Adversely at the house, only 3 miles away, they eat every single one to the ground every year.

 

[drycreek]

Do you plant them in standalone fields or mix them up near other desirable crops. Sometimes all it takes is for a few deer to realize they are palatable and the rest of the herd begins to feed on them. One method would be to plant strips of brassicas inside crops they normally prefer; clover, cereals, etc. Normally they will give the new food a try.

Have a property down the road that has taken 4 years to get them eating the brassicas a steady amount which has increased year over year. Plenty goes to wasted every spring, so I've planted less of them to find the sweet spot. Adversely at the house, only 3 miles away, they eat every single one to the ground every year.

I had them planted beside WINA clover, (which they loved) my master planwas when the clover went dormant the brassicas would thrive. That all worked like clockwork except the part where they actually ate the brassicas.

I’ve seen before where guys had to ”train” their deer to eat certain crops. I don’t want to do that, nor do I have time for that. I want to plant something every year that deer will want to eat.

Edit to say that our winters do not get extended cold like yours. We have a little snow about one out of five years. Wheat grows from when I plant it in September/October until I terminate it or the heat does next summer. I know that deer will dig for turnip bulbs under the snow in New York state, or Illinois, or a half dozen other states, but our deer get by well in our mild winters. Down here, it’s mid June until October that I try to provide nutrition for them. Bucks building antlers and does suckling fawns need all the help I can give them, which admittedly, isn’t enough !

 

[b116757]

Deer do require time to learn to eat some food items this is true I’ve seen it myself.

 

[Ikeman]

I might be in the minority on this, but I believe Sturgis has a great handle on the market for landowners in the upper Midwest who own between 20 and 200 acres. I believe that is the lion's share of the demographic he caters to and his principles are solid for those guys.
If you fall into that demographic (I do), you likely don't have enough open acres to have full season food and if you do have those acres, you are likely better transitioning that into better cover or more fall food (depending on dpsm numbers in your area). There is nothing wrong with letting the neighboring farmers or hunters feed deer in the summer with their beans/alfalfa, it really is preferable in my cases. You (me) don't have enough acres to foolishly think you're meeting the herd's needs year round anyways, so focus on the portion of the season when deer are most vulnerable - the fall.

It makes perfect sense to me and I believe he lays it out in ways that are easy for the layman (me) to understand which is why he has such a big following. His hunting strategy and tactics are often repetitive but considering they're free, it's hard to beat.

Where he loses me is the philosophical changes he has made over the years and especially now that he has a food plot seed company. Several things he said for years as gospel, he literally changed 180° in order to sell seed. Burned some industry bridges along the way and the sales pitch in every video gets tiresome.

I hate the fact that he is so pigeon holed to that demographic, and will preach his methods as gospel regardless of the persons location. Most of his dogma ONLY works there, and is completely out of place anywhere else. Yet, he will act like his cookie cutter plan will perform the same elsewhere.
I have learned that very few of the habitat “personalities” really have much experience or knowledge outside of the specific conditions they have personally.


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[Brian662]

I hate the fact that he is so pigeon holed to that demographic, and will preach his methods as gospel regardless of the persons location. Most of his dogma ONLY works there, and is completely out of place anywhere else. Yet, he will act like his cookie cutter plan will perform the same elsewhere.
I have learned that very few of the habitat “personalities” really have much experience or knowledge outside of the specific conditions they have personally.


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I guess I understand your point, but then why listen to his stuff?
I listen to Craig Harper, Bronson Strickland, etc because they're knowledgeable about deer from the studies they/others have done. Very little about their management practices relates directly to me and my parcels, so when they talk about prescribed fire and managing pine plantations, I turn it off. No big deal.

 

[drycreek]

O

I have learned that very few of the habitat “personalities” really have much experience or knowledge outside of the specific conditions they have personally.


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Amen brother ! I wouldn’t presume to know the ends and outs of habitat management or what to grow when or where In Michigan or Iowa or Illinois, or any other state other than the one I live and hunt in. Even in my home state, our terrain and climate is so diverse that means and methods vary greatly across the state. The guys in the Hill Country just mostly erect corn feeders, protein feeders, etc. and hunt. That’s all it takes and when that feeder goes off, the deer come running….mostly does and young bucks. The mature bucks will be seen hanging around in the short brush downwind of the feeders. Every now and then a nice buck will follow a hot doe into your shooting lane and he will die for his short love affair. I hunted that country for 18 years and thoroughly enjoyed it. A sit rarely was absent any deer. We killed lots of does and you couldn’t tell the difference in numbers the next year. For the first 15/16 years there were zero coyotes and we had numerous twins make it to adulthood.

Contrast the scenario above with where I hunt now, East Texas. I am in the north end of what TPWD calls the Pineywoods. Pine timber, hay fields, and natural timber are the norm. No farming. No beans, no corn, no beets, etc. My neighbor’ places look just like mine with one exception. I grow good food plots. They are small, but we don’t have many deer. What we do have is plenty of coyotes so recruitment is very low. Another thing we have plenty of is feral hogs. They are a damn plague ! You can’t plant anything with a head on it because they will tear it down and destroy it. They even eat my wheat and clover just like deer do. I do try to kill evey one I see. My theory now is, if I can grow good plots, both here at home and my lease, then that attracts the does and the does attract the bucks. It’s working so far.

 

[SwampCat]

Brassicas in the south are a crap shoot. They need to be planted in the next two weeks and the forecast is highs near 100 and no rain - not ideal planting weather. Down here in the south, I am not sure why someone would want to mess with brassicas when cereal grains and clover are much more reliable - and I have never seen deer ignore wheat or oats, here.

I used to plant every seed known to man, until I figured out not much of anything is going to get more deer to travel long distances to eat

O

Amen brother ! I wouldn’t presume to know the ends and outs of habitat management or what to grow when or where In Michigan or Iowa or Illinois, or any other state other than the one I live and hunt in. Even in my home state, our terrain and climate is so diverse that means and methods vary greatly across the state. The guys in the Hill Country just mostly erect corn feeders, protein feeders, etc. and hunt. That’s all it takes and when that feeder goes off, the deer come running….mostly does and young bucks. The mature bucks will be seen hanging around in the short brush downwind of the feeders. Every now and then a nice buck will follow a hot doe into your shooting lane and he will die for his short love affair. I hunted that country for 18 years and thoroughly enjoyed it. A sit rarely was absent any deer. We killed lots of does and you couldn’t tell the difference in numbers the next year. For the first 15/16 years there were zero coyotes and we had numerous twins make it to adulthood.

Contrast the scenario above with where I hunt now, East Texas. I am in the north end of what TPWD calls the Pineywoods. Pine timber, hay fields, and natural timber are the norm. No farming. No beans, no corn, no beets, etc. My neighbor’ places look just like mine with one exception. I grow good food plots. They are small, but we don’t have many deer. What we do have is plenty of coyotes so recruitment is very low. Another thing we have plenty of is feral hogs. They are a damn plague ! You can’t plant anything with a head on it because they will tear it down and destroy it. They even eat my wheat and clover just like deer do. I do try to kill evey one I see. My theory now is, if I can grow good plots, both here at home and my lease, then that attracts the does and the does attract the bucks. It’s working so far.

I have two properties in the same river bottoms 7 air miles apart. There are many differences in the ways they need to be managed. You dont know those differences the first day, week, month or first few years you own the place. And oftentimes, management requirements are changing.

On one of those pieces of property, I put some ricebran out three weeks ago. I have fed ricebran and other foods poured on the ground starting every year in July - plus run a corn feeder for hog hunting - always with a lot of success attracting plenty of deer and hogs. I killed 153 hogs off this 60 acres in a six month period a few years back. We have killed our three biggest bucks off this property.

To date, not one deer has stopped to feed on the rice bran. I have freshened it up. I have poured out some corn. There is one buck that has walked through maybe three times in three weeks. One pic of three does and one pic of a single doe. A single boar hog did show up night before last and eats only the corn. There were five steady bucks on feed in this exact same location last year - as late as antler drop time - and numerous does. It is like the deer and hogs just disappeared in six months time.

How does a wildlife consultant from afar manage something like that.

 

[Ikeman]

O

Amen brother ! I wouldn’t presume to know the ends and outs of habitat management or what to grow when or where In Michigan or Iowa or Illinois, or any other state other than the one I live and hunt in. Even in my home state, our terrain and climate is so diverse that means and methods vary greatly across the state. The guys in the Hill Country just mostly erect corn feeders, protein feeders, etc. and hunt. That’s all it takes and when that feeder goes off, the deer come running….mostly does and young bucks. The mature bucks will be seen hanging around in the short brush downwind of the feeders. Every now and then a nice buck will follow a hot doe into your shooting lane and he will die for his short love affair. I hunted that country for 18 years and thoroughly enjoyed it. A sit rarely was absent any deer. We killed lots of does and you couldn’t tell the difference in numbers the next year. For the first 15/16 years there were zero coyotes and we had numerous twins make it to adulthood.

Contrast the scenario above with where I hunt now, East Texas. I am in the north end of what TPWD calls the Pineywoods. Pine timber, hay fields, and natural timber are the norm. No farming. No beans, no corn, no beets, etc. My neighbor’ places look just like mine with one exception. I grow good food plots. They are small, but we don’t have many deer. What we do have is plenty of coyotes so recruitment is very low. Another thing we have plenty of is feral hogs. They are a damn plague ! You can’t plant anything with a head on it because they will tear it down and destroy it. They even eat my wheat and clover just like deer do. I do try to kill evey one I see. My theory now is, if I can grow good plots, both here at home and my lease, then that attracts the does and the does attract the bucks. It’s working so far.

I’m west of you in the far northern reaches of the Blackland Prairies… southern Fannin County. Our numbers are starting to rise finally. The doe season went from 3 days, to 5 days over the last decade, and just jumped to 15 days for this season. Only 1 doe frequents the 40 acres my parents own, and a couple yearling bucks. My only bet for an AR legal buck on that property is a rut cruiser.


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[drycreek]

Brassicas in the south are a crap shoot. They need to be planted in the next two weeks and the forecast is highs near 100 and no rain - not ideal planting weather. Down here in the south, I am not sure why someone would want to mess with brassicas when cereal grains and clover are much more reliable - and I have never seen deer ignore wheat or oats, here.

I used to plant every seed known to man, until I figured out not much of anything is going to get more deer to travel long distances to eat

I have two properties in the same river bottoms 7 air miles apart. There are many differences in the ways they need to be managed. You dont know those differences the first day, week, month or first few years you own the place. And oftentimes, management requirements are changing.

On one of those pieces of property, I put some ricebran out three weeks ago. I have fed ricebran and other foods poured on the ground starting every year in July - plus run a corn feeder for hog hunting - always with a lot of success attracting plenty of deer and hogs. I killed 153 hogs off this 60 acres in a six month period a few years back. We have killed our three biggest bucks off this property.

To date, not one deer has stopped to feed on the rice bran. I have freshened it up. I have poured out some corn. There is one buck that has walked through maybe three times in three weeks. One pic of three does and one pic of a single doe. A single boar hog did show up night before last and eats only the corn. There were five steady bucks on feed in this exact same location last year - as late as antler drop time - and numerous does. It is like the deer and hogs just disappeared in six months time.

How does a wildlife consultant from afar manage something like that.

My point exactly !

Speaking of the rice bran, we tried it on my lease near Ballinger years ago. I already knew deer would eat it, I had used it at home. I set up a tripod in a mesquite tree on a little drain that fed into a pond. Deer traveled it in a casual way, but not on an established trail like they would do in the woods back home. So in order to get one into bow range I poured out a little pile of rice bran about 20 yards from the tripod. The first thing after daylight I saw a doe down at the pond and she began browsing her way to me. When she got within about 20 yards of the bran pile she hit the brakes and pointed it as well as any bird dog I ever owned. She then turned wrong side out getting the hell out of there ! I’m quite sure they would get used to it if you left it out long enough but it was still there many days later. On the other hand, I was invited to bow hunt a place near the Red River a few years back, small window to hunt and not knowing the territory, I used some crushed acorn product with a buck on the bag. I was in a brushed in pop up blind and had a ringside seat with the Acorn Crush and a similar product called Beet Crush (maybe) in piles. I saw does and a yearling buck compete for the acorn product untill it was gone. Nothing touched the beet pile until the little buck came back and ate a little of it. Who knows why deer do what they do ? They have been studied for years by smart people and some things are still a mystery.

 

[drycreek]

I’m west of you in the far northern reaches of the Blackland Prairies… southern Fannin County. Our numbers are starting to rise finally. The doe season went from 3 days, to 5 days over the last decade, and just jumped to 15 days for this season. Only 1 doe frequents the 40 acres my parents own, and a couple yearling bucks. My only bet for an AR legal buck on that property is a rut cruiser.


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You are actually NW of me, I’m near Tyler. I will be dove hunting somewhere near Bonham the first of September. (In 100* temps like the idiot I am)

 

[Telemark]

This is one thing I dont really understand - neighbor has a ton of deer - and they are "tamer" than mine. Bucks much more predictable. I have 400 acres next to him and bucks are much more nocturnal. He is out and about all over his ground five times as much as I am - someone drives the entire perimeter fence every other day - plus eight to ten hours a day within internal acreage hauling feed, checking waterers, checking and repairing internal fencing, etc - almost everyday. Hunting pressure is probably more days on his place than mine - but obviously spread out over more acreage.

Do deer recognize the difference between work activities and hunting pressure? Human activity by itself cant be the determining factor on neighbor's place or on mine. One difference is some of our hunting activity is done with a firearm and none of the hunting is done with a firearm on his place. We shoot maybe twice a year at deer. There are a couple of deer killed a year off his 1200 acres with a bow and a couple of deer killed a year off my 400 with bow or rifle. He has no hesitation about shooting at coyotes, hogs, or black vultures (with permit) with a rifle - anytime of year. My deer habitat is much higher quality than his - but he has much more marginal habitat. That is the only real glaring difference.

My take is this:


There is a lot of human activity on his land, and the vast majority of it is not hunting deer. The deer there are therefor far more comfortable with human activity on his land.

If deer on a certain piece of land experience that most of their interaction with humans is dangerous, they will avoid human interaction. Likewise if their interaction wit humans is rare.

It's the same principle for any animal. I believe it's called "classical conditioning."

 

[SwampCat]

My point dxactly !

Speaking of the rice bran, we tried it on my lease near Ballinger years ago. I already knew deer would eat it, I had used it at home. I set up a tripod in a mesquite tree on a little drain that fed into a pond. Deer traveled it in a casual way, but not on an established trail like they would do in the woods back home. So in order to get one into bow range I poured out a little pile of rice bran about 20 yards from the tripod. The first thing after daylight I saw a doe down at the pond and she began browsing her way to me. When she got within about 20 yards of the bran pile she hit the brakes and pointed it as well as any bird dog I ever owned. She then turned wrong side out getting the hell out of there ! I’m quite sure they would get used to it if you left it out long enough but it was still there many days later. On the other hand, I was invited to bow hunt a place near the Red River a few years back, small window to hunt and not knowing the territory, I used some crushed acorn product with a buck on the bag. I was in a brushed in pop up blind and had a ringside seat with the Acorn Crush and a similar product called Beet Crush (maybe) in piles. I saw does and a yearling buck compete for the acorn product untill it was gone. Nothing touched the beet pile until the little buck came back and ate a little of it. Who knows why deer do what they do ? They have been studied for years by smart people and some things are still a mystery.

Yes - exactly. I have fed a ton of ricebran a year for the past six years on this property. This year, they wont touch it. On my other property, they are eating like always

My take is this:


There is a lot of human activity on his land, and the vast majority of it is not hunting deer. The deer there are therefor far more comfortable with human activity on his land.

If deer on a certain piece of land experience that most of their interaction with humans is dangerous, they will avoid human interaction. Likewise if their interaction wit humans is rare.

It's the same principle for any animal. I believe it's called "classical conditioning."

i dont think his deer density varies that much from mine. I sometimes see 50 or 60 deer on an evening ride on my 400 acres - 200 deer on an evening ride on his 1200 acres.

That really isnt the point of my comments. The point is, he does nothing habitat wise to improve his deer herd. In fact, the opposite is true. He manages for fescue. He kills deer preferred broadleafs. His woods are open grazed by cattle. I do everything I can to promote deer use on my place. Promote nwsg, timber stand improvement to foster bedding cover. 40 acres of year round food plots. Feed tons of high protein feed. Etc, etc. Human activity on both places is not even thought about - we both go do what we want to do anytime, and anywhere. Very selective buck harvest.

The common denominator is we both protect our does. I just wonder if I quit all the habitat work and did nothing but protect the does with a very selective buck harvest - if I would find the habitat work does not matter much. I do understand this may be specific to my land use area.

 

[BenAllgood]

Yes - exactly. I have fed a ton of ricebran a year for the past six years on this property. This year, they wont touch it. On my other property, they are eating like always

i dont think his deer density varies that much from mine. I sometimes see 50 or 60 deer on an evening ride on my 400 acres - 200 deer on an evening ride on his 1200 acres.

That really isnt the point of my comments. The point is, he does nothing habitat wise to improve his deer herd. In fact, the opposite is true. He manages for fescue. He kills deer preferred broadleafs. His woods are open grazed by cattle. I do everything I can to promote deer use on my place. Promote nwsg, timber stand improvement to foster bedding cover. 40 acres of year round food plots. Feed tons of high protein feed. Etc, etc. Human activity on both places is not even thought about - we both go do what we want to do anytime, and anywhere. Very selective buck harvest.

The common denominator is we both protect our does. I just wonder if I quit all the habitat work and did nothing but protect the does with a very selective buck harvest - if I would find the habitat work does not matter much. I do understand this may be specific to my land use area.

I'd like to know how he's sustaining at least a deer per 6 acres. What are they eating? Is it fescue alone in the pastures or is it mixed with something?