Build a doe factory to create a buck factory

[PrairieShadow]

Jeff Sturgis argues that you dont want a doe factory, because it will drive the bucks away at all times of the year other than the rut. However, then you hear that the majority of bucks highly shift their homerange once they enter Fall. Which I tend to believe more so than too many does and fawns drive the bucks away. I would rather have a good supply of does all year than hoping that does show up come Fall so that the bucks then show up.

I guess I can agree with this to an extent but maybe not in the context as sturgis does at all. I’ve got 1 piece of ground that holds numerous bucks on 80ac for months at a time. Oct 1ish rolls around and bucks start disappearing 1 by one no matter the number of does living there as well. Usually, if there are enough does around, the dominant buck from all summer will stick around the remainder of the year. My other piece, doesn’t have a decent buck show up most years until mid October. Interestingly enough, even though these properties are only 1 mile apart, I can only recall 1 instance a buck has been camera’d on both.

 

[PrairieShadow]

The interesting thing about Sturgis is that he is talking about small properties almost exclusively. It is also a way to make sure the goal posts are always moving because it is not like it is easy to say whether one does or does not have a doe factory, especially because it is unrealistic to really be able to manage a deer herd on a small property. So he always looks smart, because everyone wants more mature bucks to stay on their farm. I think wildlife writers have pressure to come up with new material and sometimes an observation becomes gospel under the guise of "I've been doing this for 30 years". Don Higgins kind of does the same thing, albeit to a lesser extent.

I think you nailed it. A lot of guys try and make it seem way more complicated that it really is.

 

[Turkey Creek]

Jeff sturgis dabbles in the arts of pseudo science.

Oh I dont put stock in almost all of the things the "big" names say, they only have one goal .... sell products or information. My wife used to often ask why I was skipping over parts of YouTube videos I was watching ...... because after 40 years of hunting and having spent many years working for wildlife departments I can tell you when someone is just blowing smoke. I am an advertiser's worst nightmare, pretty rare they are going to convince me to part with my money.

 

[Teeder]

My properties are small, 10 and 37 acres. All I can control is creating the best habitat I can with what I have to work with. I'll let the does and bucks work it out. So far, it seems the does bring the bucks in at the right time.

 

[Turkey Creek]

Sorry for the crappy picture! After a day of dealing with car sales people, I couldn't resist posting this up. The video cracked me up! Sturgis was once again going on about how does and fawns drive bucks out of an area accompanied by the video clip. Unfortunately the video clip showed fawns running around in a group of bucks..... Hmmmm you might want a new video editor. LOL

 

[b116757]

I do my best to improve my property to hold deer as much as I can and I don’t generally shoot does not that I’m completely against it but generally it’s not required. I usually have plenty of bucks to choose from we can cull a runt if we are just looking for some meat for the freezer.

 

[Natty Bumppo]

My properties are small, 10 and 37 acres. All I can control is creating the best habitat I can with what I have to work with. I'll let the does and bucks work it out. So far, it seems the does bring the bucks in at the right time.

Exactly my plan and my experience. On small properties I don't think you can have BOTH a doe factory and a buck factory. I create the best whitetail habitat I can on my small 45. Generally does and fawns and young bucks call it home. But right about mid-October I begin getting bucks showing up that I've never seen. That's OK by me. I don't care about having a personal history with them or giving them names. I never have a "target buck." I really don't want to feed them all summer. I'm just looking for high quality hunting opportunities in the fall, and my little doe factory seems to provide that.

 

[BOC]

To sum it up, the doe factory theory is nonsense. We all have as much experience as these guys and what everyone is saying is exactly what I see and how our properties are set up. It's 100% coming up with new content to further business. And people eat it up...

 

[H20fwler]

Our smaller place holds a bachelor group all summer, it always has. The woods is stupid thick with thorns and stickers on everything. Come mid September when velvet comes off the bucks disperse, usually in late January the survivors come back.

It is exactly the opposite at our bigger place mostly does and fawns all summer with maybe a small buck showing up. But come October big bucks start coming through and hanging around.

Having a “doe factory” is not a new concept at all, does are the best buck bait there is…find or hold does in fall and the bucks will come.

 

[gjs4]

The doe factory based on habitat attraction is nonsense......if you live in an area where the buck:doe ratio is whacked and there are many does around (lets throw out portions of NY), the does do displace bucks. Saying this usually evokes the "what about rut!?!?" defense. If you and handful of buddies find yourselves in an all girls college during the biggest drinking festival of the year, that happens to fall on Valentines weekend...the dancefloor and cafeteria wont be where you will be seen.

I think there is some relativity to spatial displacement. which becomes more exponential with a bucks age. I think Jeff has some great ideas but he's also put so much out the contradiction, and ego, factors are (all) very large.

Been all over this consultant thing for learning, shopping and consumerism. One of the big takeaways is relativity to a locale is not as transferable as the salesman make it. Yeah the basics (food, water, cover- hunting pressure, entry/exit....etc ) are, but knowing hunting culture, herd dynamics, macro weather, and a bunch of others is why generalities are used. A Swiss Army Knife is most useful when you have no other tools with you.

 

[Tree Spud]

Sorry for the crappy picture! After a day of dealing with car sales people, I couldn't resist posting this up. The video cracked me up! Sturgis was once again going on about how does and fawns drive bucks out of an area accompanied by the video clip. Unfortunately the video clip showed fawns running around in a group of bucks..... Hmmmm you might want a new video editor. LOLView attachment 56225

Sturgis is the "used car salesman" of the deer hunting mouth pieces.

 

[SD51555]

The interesting thing about Sturgis is that he is talking about small properties almost exclusively. It is also a way to make sure the goal posts are always moving because it is not like it is easy to say whether one does or does not have a doe factory, especially because it is unrealistic to really be able to manage a deer herd on a small property. So he always looks smart, because everyone wants more mature bucks to stay on their farm. I think wildlife writers have pressure to come up with new material and sometimes an observation becomes gospel under the guise of "I've been doing this for 30 years". Don Higgins kind of does the same thing, albeit to a lesser extent.

Absolutely.

If the deer gurus are true game changers, they'd be owning and working land in places that don't already have big bucks. I'm not impressed by media heads that have big bucks or big numbers of deer, when they were already there before they moved in and started filming.

 

[BenAllgood]

I will give the "deer gurus" some credit though. They know how to put their spin on basically the same concept, which is to provide security. There are different ways to build a place that offers "perceived" safe habitat resources. They each just put their own little tweak to it and coin catchy little terms and phrases.

 

[Tree Spud]

The interesting thing about Sturgis is that he is talking about small properties almost exclusively. It is also a way to make sure the goal posts are always moving because it is not like it is easy to say whether one does or does not have a doe factory, especially because it is unrealistic to really be able to manage a deer herd on a small property. So he always looks smart, because everyone wants more mature bucks to stay on their farm. I think wildlife writers have pressure to come up with new material and sometimes an observation becomes gospel under the guise of "I've been doing this for 30 years". Don Higgins kind of does the same thing, albeit to a lesser extent.

Sturgis and the other so called deer hunting experts are all chasing the google ranking. Saying something different or controversial, whether it is true or not, is just a form of clickbait. The more clicks on their website or papers are just a way to drive their ranking on google. When you are also selling other branded products, your advice becomes questionable.

You are correct, moving the goal posts just means more content (info) not better info.

I feel sorry for the small property folks who get drawn into the hype and pay the amount of money they do. They could post their property on here and get equal or better feedback on their situation for free.

 

[Maddog66]

When I first read about the “doe factory” concept, the first thing that went through my mind was…..CRAP I have a doe factorybut then realized another name for doe factory could be “doe nightclub”.

My goals haven’t changed. I make my property the best I can make it for all deer.

I think the part of this that makes some sense to me is the concept of letting someone else feed them all summer and pulling them into your property when the time is right. But when you think about it, that’s exactly what most of us are doing now with late brassica plantings.

I’ll share my article on “doe nightclubs” with you all soon

 

[rocksnstumps]

I will give the "deer gurus" some credit though. They know how to put their spin on basically the same concept, which is to provide security. There are different ways to build a place that offers "perceived" safe habitat resources. They each just put their own little tweak to it and coin catchy little terms and phrases.

Like "sidewalks", "lines of movement", "buffalo system". On the the other side of the coin could throw in "throw & mow" and "regenerative ag". Not a one system fits in every situation and landscape. And some of basics for concepts have been around like forever

 

[SwampCat]

To sum it up, the doe factory theory is nonsense. We all have as much experience as these guys and what everyone is saying is exactly what I see and how our properties are set up. It's 100% coming up with new content to further business. And people eat it up...

I agree 100%. I have a degree in wildlife management and worked in natural resources for 34 years - owned my land for 20 years - and learn something new about my place almost everyday. I would say outside sources have more effect on my deer herd than any of the habitat resources on my land. You dont understand how those outside sources influence the wildlife populations until you live there.

The biggest negative factor affecting my deer herd is low fawn recruitment - often below .5 per doe. This isnt something you visit a property for a few days and study aerial photos and figure out there is low fawn recruitment. Second biggest factor affecting my property is neighbor hunting pressure and baiting effort - again, you figure that out by spending years on the property and getting to know your neighbors.

A “deer consultant” would ride around my place one afternoon and see 30 antlerless deer and maybe one 2 yr old buck and proclaim I have created a doe factory and my buck:doe ratio was out of balance. Truth be known, I have determined for my conditions - I need about a 1:2.5 or 3 buck:doe ratio. Sub .5 fawn recruitment means you need more does to produce enough fawns to cover all mortality, and you need more does because I have 15 adjacent property owners - most owning 20 acres or less - and half of them are Putting four or five does in the freezer - so I dont need to kill any does. But a “deer consultant” would know none of this looking at aerial photos and spending a couple days on the property

 

[Bill]

Yeah but.
Don't throw the baby out with the water. I've learned something from most of them. I think the biggest take away for me has been from Bartylla. Among other things he has some interesting hunting styles in his books. I've adopted many of them with great success.

 

[BenAllgood]

Yeah but.
Don't throw the baby out with the water. I've learned something from most of them. I think the biggest take away for me has been from Bartylla. Among other things he has some interesting hunting styles in his books. I've adopted many of them with great success.

I agree 100%. They all are doing the same thing basically if you read between the lines. Reading between the lines is where you learn something. Deer are simple. People complicate it.

 

[SwampCat]

I agree 100%. They all are doing the same thing basically if you read between the lines. Reading between the lines is where you learn something. Deer are simple. People complicate it.

I have a next door neighbor who owns 1200 acres. A mile wide and two miles long. He has given me permission to hunt 100 acres adjacent to my land. His land is covered with deer - and plenty decent bucks. I have ridden through his property of an evening and seen over 200 deer. The land is about half wooded and half cow pasture. Besides me, he lets two guys hunt the rest of the property - bow only - if you kill it you mount it.

I cant explain in writing how many deer are on this property. Point being, he does nothing intentionally for deer other than minimize hunting pressure. He plants fescue. He sprays all broadleafs to keep his pastures clear of weeds. 270 head of cattle on the property. Continuous human activity - yet the place is covered up with deer. The owner does not hunt. Hard hunted land all around the 1200 acres. Nowhere on the property is farther than 1/2 mile from other’s hunting land.

Point being - you dont have to be a deer genius - or even care about deer - to have an excellent deer herd.