Wall

[Bowsnbucks]

SD51555 - Just for my own curiosity, what do you mean by your post #117 ?? I wasn't complaining about how I am kept safe - I don't feel threatened by anyone. (if that's what you were driving at.) Just because I don't think a wall is the total, complete answer to illegal immigration doesn't mean I'm FOR open borders and immigrants coming here illegally. Those 2 positions are not synonymous.

 

[SwampCat]

SD51555 - Just for my own curiosity, what do you mean by your post #117 ?? I wasn't complaining about how I am kept safe - I don't feel threatened by anyone. (if that's what you were driving at.) Just because I don't think a wall is the total, complete answer to illegal immigration doesn't mean I'm FOR open borders and immigrants coming here illegally. Those 2 positions are not synonymous.

I think the wall is a lot like deer season regulation. Ask 100 deer hunters what would be the perfect deer season regulations, and you will get 100 different answers. But, the g&f agencies have to do something or there wouldn’t be a deer left - even if it pleases no one. I think the wall is the same way. Yes, the are lots of different options, that might work with varying success. We know what we are now doing is not working. I don’t think anyone believes a wall will be - 100% effective - but it is something. And now we are doing almost nothing.

 

[Tree Spud]

I think the wall is a lot like deer season regulation. Ask 100 deer hunters what would be the perfect deer season regulations, and you will get 100 different answers. But, the g&f agencies have to do something or there wouldn’t be a deer left - even if it pleases no one. I think the wall is the same way. Yes, the are lots of different options, that might work with varying success. We know what we are now doing is not working. I don’t think anyone believes a wall will be - 100% effective - but it is something. And now we are doing almost nothing.

This is spot on ... don't let good be the enemy of perfect. The wall is only one part on the many tools & solutions required to address the illegal immigration problem. I have yet to hear a Border Agent or official when being interviewed, say that the wall would be a waste of time.

 

[Mortenson]

That's how I feel too. People are so sick of seemingly nothing getting done for the better. Sure there are lots of good ideas on helping curb these problems, but getting them implemented is another story. To actually think our inept govt will doing anything is dumb. It's like thinking that deputies and game wardens and threats of jail time will take care of your hunting property for you. In reality it's your own patrolling, fence building, gate building, berm building, screen planting, camera placing, that'll secure your place better. The wall is something physical we can reach out and touch. It's doing something, anything! People are fed up of being told the government is going to help them.

 

[SD51555]

SD51555 - Just for my own curiosity, what do you mean by your post #117 ?? I wasn't complaining about how I am kept safe - I don't feel threatened by anyone. (if that's what you were driving at.) Just because I don't think a wall is the total, complete answer to illegal immigration doesn't mean I'm FOR open borders and immigrants coming here illegally. Those 2 positions are not synonymous.

Trump is the first president to have the guts to take on the democrats and country club republicans and try to save America for the Americans. That effort includes securing border. I would think the first sincere effort at protecting the country from the folly of a porous border would be met with something better than all out hostility from a loud subset of the country.

 

[Tree Spud]

Trump is the first president to have the guts to take on the democrats and country club republicans and try to save America for the Americans. That effort includes securing border. I would think the first sincere effort at protecting the country from the folly of a porous border would be met with something better than all out hostility from a loud subset of the country.

A voice of reason ... a President holding the congress and senate accountable the duties he was sworn to do ... protect this against all enemies foreign & domestic.

How does one tie that into rebuilding roads?

 

[Bowsnbucks]

Spud - ^^^ The rebuilding roads & bridges comment by me was an attempt to compare what H20fwlr mentioned about Trump trying to get something done on infrastructure in Post #113, and my comment about Obama having tried to do the same thing. But Obama was blocked by Republicans in the House & Senate, as Trump is complaining now about Democrats blocking him. Blocking by either side for a needed action is not progress. It's all about who gets the credit. I doubt anyone who's had a family member killed or maimed by a bridge collapse wants to see or hear politicians jockeying for credit and blocking road & bridge repair.

H20 also had a post at #101 that mentioned our government handing over $10 billion to Central American countries to create jobs and repair infrastructure. H20 and I both think that money would be better spent here on our own problems. I agree with H20 on that.

H20's posts pointed out many things / topics. I was just commenting on one of them - the roads / bridges repair gridlock. It was just part of a multi-point post. That's all.

 

[Telemark]

have yet to hear a Border Agent or official when being interviewed, say that the wall would be a waste of time.

Same here. It's nearly unanimous among border patrol agents that a wall would help them do their job.

One thing people keep overlooking in the debate on illegal immigrants is the amount of drug smuggling a wall would prevent.

 

[Baker]

I'm just back from " the other side of the wall" . Great hunting trip with family and friends in the extraordinary brush country of Northern Mexico. Rut in full swing.

Couple of questions about the wall to hopefully add a little context:

I notice very few if any Texans on this site. How would you feel if the Govt expropriated a chunk of your farm/ranch, built a wall and road across your farm and proceeded to travel it daily with constant vehicles? Just curious.

The U.S. Govt already knows how many people cross the border daily...where, when, how and for what. The Govt. already knows where and how the folks are met in the U.S for transport to wherever their ultimate destination is. { We don't think they walk to San Francisco or Chicago do we? } Wouldn't it be easier, cheaper and more effective to stop this at the transportation connection which invariably is at a road system across the border?

The Govt. has all the technology in place now to 'see' everything and everyone crossing the border along just about the entire U.S. Mex. border. My experience is the current problem is one of a) manpower b) clear edict to stop illegal immigration via arrest c) political will to deal with the problem Wouldn't it be cheaper, more effective, and immediate if we simply put sufficient manpower on the border with proper equipment and directives to stop the problem? Wall or no wall it will still take manpower.

What would happen if we simply started strengthening and enforcing the laws against hiring illegal workers now? What does it cost to oversee and enforce employment law vs. the current cost to the legal system against illegal entry then flying them back home in commercial jets?

Just a couple conversation starters. I'm 100% for dealing with the illegal immigration problem just believe there are more realistic effective solutions .

 

[H20fwler]

I'm just back from " the other side of the wall" . Great hunting trip with family and friends in the extraordinary brush country of Northern Mexico. Rut in full swing.

Couple of questions about the wall to hopefully add a little context:

I notice very few if any Texans on this site. How would you feel if the Govt expropriated a chunk of your farm/ranch, built a wall and road across your farm and proceeded to travel it daily with constant vehicles? Just curious.

The U.S. Govt already knows how many people cross the border daily...where, when, how and for what. The Govt. already knows where and how the folks are met in the U.S for transport to wherever their ultimate destination is. { We don't think they walk to San Francisco or Chicago do we? } Wouldn't it be easier, cheaper and more effective to stop this at the transportation connection which invariably is at a road system across the border?

The Govt. has all the technology in place now to 'see' everything and everyone crossing the border along just about the entire U.S. Mex. border. My experience is the current problem is one of a) manpower b) clear edict to stop illegal immigration via arrest c) political will to deal with the problem Wouldn't it be cheaper, more effective, and immediate if we simply put sufficient manpower on the border with proper equipment and directives to stop the problem? Wall or no wall it will still take manpower.

What would happen if we simply started strengthening and enforcing the laws against hiring illegal workers now? What does it cost to oversee and enforce employment law vs. the current approach to the legal system against illegal entry then flying them back home in commercial jets?

Just a couple conversation starters. I'm 100% for dealing with the illegal immigration problem just believe there are more realistic effective solutions .

Build a wall on my property to help secure and protect my family and the country, while keeping illegals from trespassing on me stealing from me and running all over my place and my neighbors ? Non issue YES every time.

As just about everyone has said...build the wall and provide manpower to patrol it correctly and use the best most cutting edge security measures money can buy.
And I absolutely agree we need to start enforcing the immigration laws that are in place and start enforcing/writing better employment laws on employers who are hiring illegals and charge them with the maximum penalties.

Just the money saved to our welfare/education/medical systems and fines levied on illegal employers would pay for all of it.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

Enforcing immigration laws already on the books, and/or new laws on immigration, policing and punishing employers who hire illegals will take agencies & manpower= money. With all the "slash and burn" of budgets to accomplish those very things, you know …………. "big government" - how does all this get accomplished ?? People aren't going to do these jobs for free or for peanuts either. Who has been doing the slashing of budgets to policing agencies and regulatory bodies ( of all sorts ) ???

You can't expect good outcomes with self-policing. As an example - remember the banking meltdown & financial collapse ?? And now there's a push to eliminate many of the regulations put in place to protect the avg. citizen from the financial industry gambling with our money. Sound smart to you guys ?? Your retirement is what's at stake. Slash and burn these regs. and agencies ??? Do you like foxes guarding your henhouse ??

So with border security - we'll need Congress to address it in a comprehensive way, agencies & manpower to police and enforce those laws (old & new) with teeth - not a verbal reprimand or a $250 fine, which most businesses ( that have hired or want to hire illegals ) would regard as just a cost of doing business, like buying gasoline. Remember …….. there are lobbyists working 24/7 behind closed doors to accomplish things that are NOT good for the avg. citizen - regardless of political affiliation. Who among us here can afford to pay for a lobbyist and get him access to the "right people" ??

We want great systems and outcomes ……….... but at no cost / very little cost.

H20 - Not trying to be an a-hole here, but how do you know the specific dollar amounts being spent on the things listed in your last sentence above, and that dollar amount would pay for all of the new laws, regs. and enforcement agencies ?? If someone (inside, in the know) gave us a correct, exact dollar figure - how many of us would say "BS, that can't be right" !! and refuse to believe him/her ?? ( Just playing devil's advocate here !! )

 

[Telemark]

but how do you know the specific dollar amounts being spent on the things listed in your last sentence above, and that dollar amount would pay for all of the new laws, regs. and enforcement agencies ?? If someone (inside, in the know) gave us a correct, exact dollar figure - how many of us would say "BS, that can't be right" !! and refuse to believe him/her ?? (

The money already exists. It's just being spent on nonsense. We could build the wall, man it, dump billions into infratructure, give everyone free university, and still have a trillion dolars left over if the government hadn't wasted so much money on the useless F-35 boondoggle.

The 700 billion dollar bank bailout would have covered all that with Billions to spare as well.

The government has the money, they just spend it on other things. They funnel it to banks and corporations.

 

[H20fwler]

H20 - Not trying to be an a-hole here, but how do you know the specific dollar amounts being spent on the things listed in your last sentence above, and that dollar amount would pay for all of the new laws, regs. and enforcement agencies ?? If someone (inside, in the know) gave us a correct, exact dollar figure - how many of us would say "BS, that can't be right" !! and refuse to believe him/her ?? ( Just playing devil's advocate here !! )

OK

http://centerforhealthprogress.org/...MI5sHby8nN3wIVlI3ICh3QtQDVEAAYBCAAEgKRK_D_BwE
https://www.azcentral.com/story/new...documented-immigrants-cost-economy/691997002/
https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-...mmigration-policy-impose-300-billion-annuall/
https://fairus.org/issue/publicatio...n-illegal-immigration-united-states-taxpayers
https://www.watchdog.org/national/a...cle_b51222e8-8b7b-11e8-8546-37063af1f318.html

and there are hundreds more articles on it.

 

[H20fwler]

Even if you take the very lowest estimate of what illegal immigrants cost the US taxpayers say $46B a year I believe that could easily build and fund the wall annually with plenty of money left over for the all corrupt politicians that are blocking it to split up amongst themselves.

Then if you factor in the savings to the public on the crimes perpetrated by whatever the small percentage is that the illegal immigrants commit with violent and petty crimes not to mention vehicle accidents by non insured illegals that eventually raises OUR insurance rates...and not to forget..how could you ever put a price any American citizens and their families hurt or killed by this small fraction of deviant illegal aliens? Just look at the savings.....

The wall and beefed up border security only makes sense no matter if you are republican democrat or independent...how couldn't it? There is absolutely no valid reason not to do it IMO.

 

[Telemark]

H2O, don't forget all the drugs that come across the border.

 

[H20fwler]

H2O, don't forget all the drugs that come across the border.

Oh I’m not forgetting that at all or the rampant human trafficking.

My response was to the question posed to me about the actual dollar amount not having the wall is costing US taxpayers.

 

[Baker]

Couple more thoughts.

I am totally on the side of successful border security . I also think it is not a question of money. I do think it is a question of money effectively spent.

First the wall. Even if it is funded and they move forward building it, construction will take years. They have already built 600 miles of the easiest portion. The river between Texas and Mexico is not a pretty line on paper. It is full of steep bluffs, canyons, arroyos draining in and generally hostile and very remote countryside. . There will be untold litigation between landowners that resent having their property stolen by the govt. that delay the process.{ These same landowners know how and where to stop the problem and know the wall is a joke} And no matter, even with the wall it will take a significant increase in manpower to assure any positive results. Why not just add the manpower now placed where they know to intercept crossings and connections? Hell, I know where standard crossing are that have been in place for years and I'm just a red neck from La.

There is a difference between wet backs seeking employment in U.S and drug smuggling. Certainly some wet backs smuggle a garbage bag of whatever across the border where they are met on the other side by transportation on a public road. { Cheapest easiest to stop it there } But large scale smuggling comes across a) Standard border crossings everyone else uses via mules in cars, specially equipped 18 wheelers, trains etc. b) Via well developed tunnels that are all along the entirety of the border c) planes, submarines and things we haven't figured out yet. Do we really think Chapo Guzman was worth $16 Billion by having a wet back sneak across the river with garbage bags? And he's just one. Drug smugglers use different tactics than illegal aliens seeking employment.

Almost all illegal immigration in the u.s is met by transportation on the u.s side of the border. That is the obvious, cheapest place to disrupt the process. It is well known where and by whom this happens. Someone please tell me why that cant happen starting today easily and effectively? I also propose the wall will be grossly ineffective and still require manpower to be successful and that manpower could be employed today with great success utilizing knowledge already in place. I see the wall as an expensive metaphor.

 

[swat1018]

Couple more thoughts.

I am totally on the side of successful border security . I also think it is not a question of money. I do think it is a question of money effectively spent.

First the wall. Even if it is funded and they move forward building it, construction will take years. They have already built 600 miles of the easiest portion. The river between Texas and Mexico is not a pretty line on paper. It is full of steep bluffs, canyons, arroyos draining in and generally hostile and very remote countryside. . There will be untold litigation between landowners that resent having their property stolen by the govt. that delay the process.{ These same landowners know how and where to stop the problem and know the wall is a joke} And no matter, even with the wall it will take a significant increase in manpower to assure any positive results. Why not just add the manpower now placed where they know to intercept crossings and connections? Hell, I know where standard crossing are that have been in place for years and I'm just a red neck from La.

There is a difference between wet backs seeking employment in U.S and drug smuggling. Certainly some wet backs smuggle a garbage bag of whatever across the border where they are met on the other side by transportation on a public road. { Cheapest easiest to stop it there } But large scale smuggling comes across a) Standard border crossings everyone else uses via mules in cars, specially equipped 18 wheelers, trains etc. b) Via well developed tunnels that are all along the entirety of the border c) planes, submarines and things we haven't figured out yet. Do we really think Chapo Guzman was worth $16 Billion by having a wet back sneak across the river with garbage bags? And he's just one. Drug smugglers use different tactics than illegal aliens seeking employment.

Almost all illegal immigration in the u.s is met by transportation on the u.s side of the border. That is the obvious, cheapest place to disrupt the process. It is well known where and by whom this happens. Someone please tell me why that cant happen starting today easily and effectively? I also propose the wall will be grossly ineffective and still require manpower to be successful and that manpower could be employed today with great success utilizing knowledge already in place. I see the wall as an expensive metaphor.

I've always been Ok with the wall, but you have knowledge I don't. I just wish they would make a meaningful effort one way or another.

 

[Northbound]

The government dose not have the money, notice the debt lately? We're foolish enough to be handing out imaginary money on welfare and every other 'freebie'. Take away the handouts and no one will come seeking them. And as a bonus we starve off some of the problem we already have. I voted for trump hoping he'd run things a little more like a business and never get the wall nonsense passed. spending such crazy amounts on a ineffective wall makes you sound kinda like a liberal.
Even (realistically) if we don't stop feeding the problem there's many more cost effective methods than a wall. Heck treat it like a hunting season. Make it clear that border can only be crossed is certain areas and shoot anyone crossing in other areas. People might actually pay to help! No baiting tho :)
As far as drug traffic, I highly doubt a wall would stop much drug traffic, even high schoolers don't smoke Mexican brick weed anymore. marijuana is mostly American made(if you still count cali as America)now days. Any of the more high dollar stuff is likely not trusted on a mule crossing by foot. Now days isn't the real epidemic pills and meth not traditional 'drugs'? Take away free health care and you can bet the pill passing around slims down as well
I really think those in favor of the wall should discuss or listen to reasoning of those from the area or better yet the folks that have illegally come here. I've never been near the border and have no intention to do so however I've heard from those that have crossed illegally and a wall isn't going to change the travel plans they've used. From the midwest yes we could see a impressive wall on the news but if it won't do anything other than look impressive what do we gain

 

[Mortenson]

"Someone please tell me why that cant happen starting today easily and effectively?" - Baker

Yes, I can. Politics.

Those in favor are trying to take the politics out of it and build a stupid barrier. We don't care anymore. High ranking politicians who used to be in favor of barriers and stopping illegals are no longer in favor. It's not rocket surgery. If the wrong guy helps solve the problem when you're no longer in power, then you lose. That's their mentality. Hard to blame them, they're politicians. You potentially lose your life long gravy train. Can the cost of the wall be justified? Great question. I say let's find out! Can the cost of your Reconyx be justified? How about the cost of your 12 apple trees that may not pan out, but it just cost a guy 3% of his yearly income to put them in beautifully. Sometimes you just have to go for it. I agree with the others who have said the 25 billion is chump change. Some of you remind me of my brother, who probably voted for Trump (thankfully), but who I still consider a Nevertrumper. --

"But Trump tweets too much" ... "Guess what? I don't care anymore"
"But he's not really a Christian" ... "Guess what? I don't care anymore"
"But Republicans don't like him" ... "I don't care!"
"He filed 69 bankruptcies and hooked up with Ms. December '99" ... "I don't give a bleep anymore!"
"But he's really a NY liberal" ... "Guess what? He just put in 2 constitutional SCOTUS judges, and that alone validated my vote!"

A bunch of us stopped caring about anything but results anymore. Republicans are as bad as D's. I loathe both of the parties, R's only slightly less. At least the D party has motives that are obvious. The R's are mostly snakes.

About the border and the eminent domain aspect. Tough luck. If you want to be a landowner, then be prepared for what can happen. If you don't want to be a landowner, then you can share in the lack of problems that other peons have a lack of, and sell or donate your land. Or get a good team of lawyers and get paid well. Or advertise your newly protected land as being more valuable and capitalize. We should all know that land along borders, government property, municipalities, roadways, utility pathways, etc. is vulnerable.

It's easy to say "take away the free healthcare" as Northbound just did. But it's never going away. The freebies aren't going away. They may get shuffled around a little, that's all. We're a welfare state. Not changing anytime soon. Once a part of the population gets a handout, good luck ever saying goodbye to it! Votes and power. It's all politics. I want to reach out and touch a wall. And truthfully we should have a wall along small parts of Canada too. Therefore I'm going to donate to the wall fund again. I'll be "Habitat Speaker" on the recent donor list in about 3 minutes. I can sacrifice half a trail cam in '19. Oh yeah, happy new year!