Are the glory days of deer hunting coming to a close?

[FarmerDan]

Yeah good question. I fear we lose any semblance of a balanced herd. I am a huge proponent, in as much as we can achieve nowadays, in harmony and balance. We are the “rulers” of wildlife and the habitat. Because of our impacts nature cannot manage itself anymore. Heavy is the head that wears the crown and all that. Bucks are by and large not able to even sniff maturity in a free range setting. That is due to man’s inability to care OR show restraint. If we make taking the life of something that has been alive for less time than I own a pair of underwear even easier what is the future of the deer herd like and by default deer hunting.
I can also go into the sanctity of the pursuit and the merits of fair chase but I fear I’ve already run long on my 2 to 3 sentence answer!

Caveat- I’m painting with a broadbrush I know. There’s a lot of amazing managers and hunters and properties and will be forever god willing.

I suspect you didn't start this thread with that lofty a statement....but I like it because there are no answers to what you propose. If you agree to that then this becomes a discussion about man's place in the nature of things and what each man values in his or her place. We will forever be debating those issues because it depends on your place and time of origin. Yet, somehow - and this is where we are lost today - we need to come to some sort of agreement, a compromise, if we are to live in "harmony and balance."

To your statements, not to be argumentative, but to begin a discussion of what's important to you so I, and I hope others, can understand your value position-

1. What is a "balanced" herd? Would we recognize it if we saw it? Are you referring to age and sex structure?
2. Rulers of wildlife and habitat? Yes, we are at the top of the food chain. I want to ask, are we not more aware now than we have ever been of our position and are we not more equipped to be good stewards of the same? And is we position we are not being good stewards?
3. Is your remorse over the age of your underwear misplaced? If we failed to hunt and kill any deer what would the herd look like? density? age? sex? health?
4. The future of the deer herd? I can only speak from where I sit. We have a hard time keeping the herd in check in a lot of places. In other places the habitat precludes any sort of habitation. What should we do? It sounds to me, and I'm trying to honestly reflect your vision, like we should do nothing?
5. Finally, fair chase. Isn't that a contrived (but important) value judgement designed to keep all of us sportsmen sportsmen? I gotta tell ya' as a farmer growing crops and a timber owner there's only chase! And, having said that, does it come back around to need for us to keep the herd from overrunning humanity? That's a little heave but doesn't it make a point that permeates governmental herd management?

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

I’ve got a couple buddies that I can’t even be around during deer season anymore they have gotten so judgmental over people shooting any bucks under 150, they are obsessed with horns.
It gets so old hearing them complaining about how others hunt.
They used to be fun to hang out with during season.

Do they want to be neighbors!


I kid

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

I suspect you didn't start this thread with that lofty a statement....but I like it because there are no answers to what you propose. If you agree to that then this becomes a discussion about man's place in the nature of things and what each man values in his or her place. We will forever be debating those issues because it depends on your place and time of origin. Yet, somehow - and this is where we are lost today - we need to come to some sort of agreement, a compromise, if we are to live in "harmony and balance."

To your statements, not to be argumentative, but to begin a discussion of what's important to you so I, and I hope others, can understand your value position-

1. What is a "balanced" herd? Would we recognize it if we saw it? Are you referring to age and sex structure?
2. Rulers of wildlife and habitat? Yes, we are at the top of the food chain. I want to ask, are we not more aware now than we have ever been of our position and are we not more equipped to be good stewards of the same? And is we position we are not being good stewards?
3. Is your remorse over the age of your underwear misplaced? If we failed to hunt and kill any deer what would the herd look like? density? age? sex? health?
4. The future of the deer herd? I can only speak from where I sit. We have a hard time keeping the herd in check in a lot of places. In other places the habitat precludes any sort of habitation. What should we do? It sounds to me, and I'm trying to honestly reflect your vision, like we should do nothing?
5. Finally, fair chase. Isn't that a contrived (but important) value judgement designed to keep all of us sportsmen sportsmen? I gotta tell ya' as a farmer growing crops and a timber owner there's only chase! And, having said that, does it come back around to need for us to keep the herd from overrunning humanity? That's a little heave but doesn't it make a point that permeates governmental herd management?

A lot to digest. And the problem we run into is philosophical. I won’t convince you of where I stand and you most likely won’t convince me on where you stand, wherever that may be.
I appreciate your thoughts and questions and that’s what makes these types of discussions important. If I just operated in an echo chamber I wouldn’t be rounded enough to have a debate.

Without breaking down every point I will highlight a couple things off the top of my head. Balance does refer to age and sex. We both know that our efforts have not produced a proper buck:doe ratio combined with a heavy skew towards immature bucks. I have been able to help manage and be an active observer on a closed loop environment (high fence) and have seen what balance looks like. We are not close in most free range landscapes. Why is that? Should we strive for that?

Technology theoretically should allow us manage at the highest of levels. Is it? Is the landscape better today than 50 years ago? Did quail and turkey and ducks get the memo if it is? Is fence row to fence row agriculture doing anyone but the farmer any good? Are we raising a generation of hunters or cell phone app bait sitters?

The last point about fair chase is a very important one to me. It’s also a personal one. This is where I find myself projecting my ethics on someone else. The problem I have is removing my bias because I naturally feel I’m right. That’s not pompous or vain as it would be the acme of foolishness to think your own ethics are wrong. So when I see a buck killed at 500 yards by a anti aircraft round with a gun fixed to a lead sled while it had its head in an aluminum feed trough while the cell cam captured the whole carnage I can’t be excited for you. My personal thoughts are legislation is not concerned with the hunt or the resource. They are concerned with money and keeping the masses at bay. So for someone to say well it’s legal so shut up doesn’t fly with me. Legality doesn’t equal morality. We should do better as stewards in my opinion, which probably isn’t worth much!

Edit:
This topic has generated 27 pages of opinions. Obviously this is a hot button topic and worthy of thought. I’m pretty pleased with how the back and forth has gone.

 

[matinc]

It's reading lines like deer are so sophisticated and smart. My God they are pretty stupid animals most of the time. And when you have of all the above advances noted above by omicron and I hear guys bragging how difficult it is to shot their 14th 4 pointer I wanna puke. Don't tell me a bait pile and a trail cam telling you where to go is fair chase. It's really time to take a look at your own ethics. It's an inline muzzleloader with a scope. How about open sights only.

 

[chucker66]

Deer are pretty smart. I'm thinking we have a few cousin Ray's here LOL

 

[SwampCat]

What I hear a lot of folks saying - is the more difficult you make the harvest - the more moral the hunter. No bait, no cameras, a longbow, and wooden arrows and a knapped stone arrowhead killing only five year old bucks would probably be close to the pinnacle. I know someone who has done that - with the exception of only shooting five year old bucks. I truly do believe he is a breed apart. But he has no kids and a job that allows him to hunt a lot.

Most of the guys I know work 60 hours most week, and have several kids going every which way at once. Four or five days hunting during the season is what they get. They are probably hunting with a ten yr old kid. They love to hunt - but have other commitments that get in the way. Yes, they like to kill 150’s - and they have - even down here in the commercial loblolly pine timberlands. But that was before life got in the way. Not only do they like to kill 150’s - they like to kill 125’s - which is a good five year old buck for here. They also want the excitement of tracking a deer, the camaraderie at the skinning pole, and they like to eat deer meat. Contrary to what a lot of folks think - “just kill a doe” does not work everywhere. I would rather someone kill a sub par mature buck or a 2 yr old buck that shows no potential than kill a doe. A single buck or two is not going to make one bit of difference to the future of the herd. And if they hunt where a camera showed there was a decent buck a week ago, over a pile of bait, with a .300 prc - their morals are to be questioned.

These folks should be commended, instead - because they made the most of their limited opportunity and have the ability to accept less than perfect without whining about neighbors shooting THEIR deer.

 

[sandbur]

Art.. we’ve had this argument before on other sites . Nothing personal … we are just on opposite ends of the deer hunting perspective.

I’d be careful to criticize the pursuit of mature bucks. Just because your wife told you something, doesn’t mean it applies to everyone that hunts deer.

First off, the last person I’m listening to on deer hunting advice is my wife . Second, killing a young buck is fine on your land.. but if I want to pass young bucks on my farms and hope they actually lives a few years, absolutely nothing wrong with that . It’s better for the sport in my opinion.

More deer around, more balanced deer herd. Rut is more intense with more competition… Age structure is better! All positives!!

I have to agree with most of what you said. I was on your side of the fence for decades. My wife is also a deer hunter and gave me great advice. This obsession with big antlers was making it difficult for others to want to hunt with or around me. I grumbled about deer others killed and my wife pointed out that my daughters would not want to hunt with me if I continued on that path.

I respect a landowner making choices for his own land.

I pass some young bucks nearly every year, and I also occasionally shoot one. It depends on what looks best for the local herd and what venison we would like to eat.

 

[sandbur]

I have to agree with most of what you said. I was on your side of the fence for decades. My wife is also a deer hunter and gave me great advice. This obsession with big antlers was making it difficult for others to want to hunt with or around me. I grumbled about deer others killed and my wife pointed out that my daughters would not want to hunt with me if I continued on that path.

I respect a landowner making choices for his own land.

I pass some young bucks nearly every year, and I also occasionally shoot one. It depends on what looks best for the local herd and what venison we would like to eat.

Kurt, I have to add that what is good for my family and hunting is not necessarily the right choice for your family and it’s hunting.

Times change, people change. All is well!

 

[TreeDaddy]

A lot to digest. And the problem we run into is philosophical. I won’t convince you of where I stand and you most likely won’t convince me on where you stand, wherever that may be.
I appreciate your thoughts and questions and that’s what makes these types of discussions important. If I just operated in an echo chamber I wouldn’t be rounded enough to have a debate.

Without breaking down every point I will highlight a couple things off the top of my head. Balance does refer to age and sex. We both know that our efforts have not produced a proper buck:doe ratio combined with a heavy skew towards immature bucks. I have been able to help manage and be an active observer on a closed loop environment (high fence) and have seen what balance looks like. We are not close in most free range landscapes. Why is that? Should we strive for that?

Technology theoretically should allow us manage at the highest of levels. Is it? Is the landscape better today than 50 years ago? Did quail and turkey and ducks get the memo if it is? Is fence row to fence row agriculture doing anyone but the farmer any good? Are we raising a generation of hunters or cell phone app bait sitters?

The last point about fair chase is a very important one to me. It’s also a personal one. This is where I find myself projecting my ethics on someone else. The problem I have is removing my bias because I naturally feel I’m right. That’s not pompous or vain as it would be the acme of foolishness to think your own ethics are wrong. So when I see a buck killed at 500 yards by a anti aircraft round with a gun fixed to a lead sled while it had its head in an aluminum feed trough while the cell cam captured the whole carnage I can’t be excited for you. My personal thoughts are legislation is not concerned with the hunt or the resource. They are concerned with money and keeping the masses at bay. So for someone to say well it’s legal so shut up doesn’t fly with me. Legality doesn’t equal morality. We should do better as stewards in my opinion, which probably isn’t worth much!

Edit:
This topic has generated 27 pages of opinions. Obviously this is a hot button topic and worthy of thought. I’m pretty pleased with how the back and forth has gone.

Be patient

All threads end in tubes v cages

Once broached , the end is near

bill

 

[hunts_with_stick]

Just found this thread. Sorry I'm behind, and I didn't read all the posts.

As a hunter in Pa. of 50+ years, I can say that our deer numbers are down compared to years ago - but the quality of bucks is better than ever in my lifetime. AR has made a difference for sure, with more bucks getting some age on them. Where years ago here, a 6 or 8 pt. with a spread of 10 inches was a noteworthy kill, now it's common to see 8 pts. of 16 inch spread and 100" to 125" on a regular basis in the summer and early fall. Some of those go down in archery season, but they aren't rare anymore.

Hunter numbers are down here, compared to the 1970's, 1980's, and 2000's. Younger guys not getting into hunting as much as in the past here either.

As for quality / passing on smaller bucks - more guys are doing it here. IMO, seeing more better-racked bucks is incentive to let the smaller guys get some age on them to grow for next year. At our camp, it used to be if we sighted an 8 pt. measuring around 100" - guys would turn themselves inside out to get a shot at him. For a number of years now, after doing some logging (new browse) and planting food plots, we see maybe 8 to 10 good bucks eating together in the same food plot. Other camps in the area are doing much the same - planting food plots, logging, and letting some smaller bucks walk. I personally have been letting lesser (legal) bucks walk for about 10 or more years now. If I'm going to shoot one, and go through the "afterwork", I'd rather it be a big one. Other camp members are doing the same. We have cams out & enjoy watching them grow from one year to the next.

In my home region of Pa. - 3 hours from camp - I know of guys that aren't into shooting smaller bucks either, so size / quality has risen here too. IMO - if I could go back to bigger deer numbers / smaller deer - I'd rather hunt now with a few less deer, but bigger-bodied deer .... bucks and does.

I wouldn’t say hunter numbers are down, I’d say they are up, they just bought crossbows and hunt archery.

 

[Tree Spud]

This thread is turning into the Festivus thread ... we just need the Festivus pole for all the airing of grievances.

 

[T-Max]

A lot to digest. And the problem we run into is philosophical. I won’t convince you of where I stand and you most likely won’t convince me on where you stand, wherever that may be.
I appreciate your thoughts and questions and that’s what makes these types of discussions important. If I just operated in an echo chamber I wouldn’t be rounded enough to have a debate.

Without breaking down every point I will highlight a couple things off the top of my head. Balance does refer to age and sex. We both know that our efforts have not produced a proper buck:doe ratio combined with a heavy skew towards immature bucks. I have been able to help manage and be an active observer on a closed loop environment (high fence) and have seen what balance looks like. We are not close in most free range landscapes. Why is that? Should we strive for that?

Technology theoretically should allow us manage at the highest of levels. Is it? Is the landscape better today than 50 years ago? Did quail and turkey and ducks get the memo if it is? Is fence row to fence row agriculture doing anyone but the farmer any good? Are we raising a generation of hunters or cell phone app bait sitters?

The last point about fair chase is a very important one to me. It’s also a personal one. This is where I find myself projecting my ethics on someone else. The problem I have is removing my bias because I naturally feel I’m right. That’s not pompous or vain as it would be the acme of foolishness to think your own ethics are wrong. So when I see a buck killed at 500 yards by a anti aircraft round with a gun fixed to a lead sled while it had its head in an aluminum feed trough while the cell cam captured the whole carnage I can’t be excited for you. My personal thoughts are legislation is not concerned with the hunt or the resource. They are concerned with money and keeping the masses at bay. So for someone to say well it’s legal so shut up doesn’t fly with me. Legality doesn’t equal morality. We should do better as stewards in my opinion, which probably isn’t worth much!

Edit:
This topic has generated 27 pages of opinions. Obviously this is a hot button topic and worthy of thought. I’m pretty pleased with how the back and forth has gone.

Spot on about the legislation. Nothing but money and power will persuade these people. That is not debatable.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[BenAllgood]

I'll just throw this into the mix. Our legislation of hunting was started after building and adopting the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation. This is what every game department and their decisions are based on (or supposed to be based on). The model has 7 tenets. Attached is a pdf copy.

1. Wildlife Resources Are a Public Trust
2. Markets for Game Are Eliminated
3. Allocation of Wildlife Is by Law
4. Wildlife Can Be Killed Only for a Legitimate Purpose
5. Wildlife Is Considered an International Resource
6. Science Is the Proper Tool to Discharge Wildlife Policy
7. Democracy of Hunting Is Standard

 

[bwoods11]

Kurt, I have to add that what is good for my family and hunting is not necessarily the right choice for your family and it’s hunting.

Times change, people change. All is well!

Agree! I like to pursue mature bucks but I have no problem with guys shooting what they want on their land . I never tell my neighbors what to shoot, or even suggest it .

They can shoot what they want, and I understand the guy hunting public land may not see a buck all week. He’s not going to pass one in most cases !

It’s all good.. this topic has been talked about since the old QDMA forum days ! We will never all agree on management, but as deer hunters we should discuss it and respect each other.

 

[T-Max]

I'll just throw this into the mix. Our legislation of hunting was started after building and adopting the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation. This is what every game department and their decisions are based on (or supposed to be based on). The model has 7 tenets. Attached is a pdf copy.

1. Wildlife Resources Are a Public Trust
2. Markets for Game Are Eliminated
3. Allocation of Wildlife Is by Law
4. Wildlife Can Be Killed Only for a Legitimate Purpose
5. Wildlife Is Considered an International Resource
6. Science Is the Proper Tool to Discharge Wildlife Policy
7. Democracy of Hunting Is Standard

"Supposed to be." That is the key point. Our Fish and Game Department floated the idea of banning baiting this year. It is not unprecedented. Their reasoning was concern for disease mainly. Whether you agree with that or not, they found it to be backed by evidence and took the first steps to explore the financial impact, etc... They were immediately challenged by two state legislators who threatened to withdraw $1,000,000 in funding if they followed through.

 

[Belo]

Makes me sick. My 4th grader is one of few without cell phone. We put in a landline (over internet of course) the boys can use when we leave them for short periods.

Thinking of getting a prepaid voice and text, no internet no camera we can keep charged, and give them when out and about. They won’t have their own phone till 13. We catch grief from them but oh well.

What we did was make one of my old iphones available. all apps and stuff are locked out, but my oldest can use whats app, facetime or google voice to call/text when they're left alone (dad sneaks out to hunt afternoons for about an hour before mom gets home) haha. It's free and they can still communicate if there's an emergency and often when there's not lol.

 

[Belo]

I avoid the gram/tic toc/facebook because they are terrible for mental health! Hunting forums are just one rung down the ladder.. Im to the point where i should probably put myself on a forum hiatus and focus on work/family more until i can reign in their impact on my ADD..

I actually took a break from my local hunting forum this fall. Mostly due to a few members being insufferable and I'd find myself being drawn in despite my best efforts not to be. I will probably hop back in when the season ends. I've found my season to be more free. I don't feel like i've been jealous of others success or pressured to share my own. Social media in any form does that to even the best of us.

I'm already sort of in off season mode and planning my spring habitat work, so browsing this site feels safer and less "controversial"... I'm sure there are fun little disagreements to be had.

 

[Belo]

When it comes to all the states the temptation is to add more seasons and weapons. Illinois, Minnesota, Michigan, Missouri, Iowa has even done it .

Crossbows, longer Muzzy seasons, early Muzzy seasons, youth hunts, early doe, and much more.

In theory it’s more tags sold, more opportunity! But overall the quality goes downhill and it has had the reverse effect!

add NY to the list. I know it's not viewed as a big buck state, but 200k hunters and some nice areas to hunt. They keep piling it on. added crossbows about 5 years ago, but only the 2nd half of bow season (funny enough the rut). Added a new antlerless gun september hunt and "holiday" hunt last year. The holiday hunt is a whole extra week tacked on over christmas break. NY, for those that don't know already has a 4 week gun season and a 10 day mz season on the tail of a 1.5 month archery season. Like if you can't get it done in that time, then i don't know what to tell ya. But they want more dead deer, and have openly said as much. However, they have taken zero action on access. So the public land is sparse with deer, and good luck with a mature buck. Ag land is pounded into the ground and meanwhile the burbs have deer like they're squirrels.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

add NY to the list. I know it's not viewed as a big buck state, but 200k hunters and some nice areas to hunt. They keep piling it on. added crossbows about 5 years ago, but only the 2nd half of bow season (funny enough the rut). Added a new antlerless gun september hunt and "holiday" hunt last year. The holiday hunt is a whole extra week tacked on over christmas break. NY, for those that don't know already has a 4 week gun season and a 10 day mz season on the tail of a 1.5 month archery season. Like if you can't get it done in that time, then i don't know what to tell ya. But they want more dead deer, and have openly said as much. However, they have taken zero action on access. So the public land is sparse with deer, and good luck with a mature buck. Ag land is pounded into the ground and meanwhile the burbs have deer like they're squirrels.

People are pretty cordial for the most part here. There are some hotter topics. Definitely don't suggest that COVID vax had any positive benefits. Also, don't tell everyone with less than 1000 acres that they are not capable of QDM haha.

 

[Belo]

To be honest, I worried about all this stuff ten years ago. I can even remember back in the 70’s when I came home to Georgia from college with a compound bow and my dad said - “I see you went out and bought a CHEATER”. Georgia had yet to legalize compounds. Back then - we had the same discussion as now - just exchange the word compound for crossbow. How many folks do you think would be bow hunting now, and how many fewer deer would be killed if we had to use traditional archery. Those who use compound bows are using a bow with training wheels.

to be fair the mechanics of drawing a trad bow vs a compound are the same. Sure the power, letoff etc make a compound much, much easier. But you're still drawing. The crossbow doesn't require the same mechanics. It's cocked and ready to go with potentially little to no movement if you're shooting off a rest.

This is my new favorite example of how having to draw your bow (compound or not) creates a challenge that the crossbow does not. And yes, he wouldn't have been able to hold it at all if it was trad, but with a crossbow that buck is dead