All Things Habitat - Lets talk.....

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Are the glory days of deer hunting coming to a close?

I do think about that dogs. Deer were nonexistent in about 1940 in Alabama. They had been wiped out. The state and scientist repopulated it. There are now more deer than the state can handle.

The question is, was that the right move. Humans are part of nature, and if we decimate a population, are we supposed to bring it back? It reminds me of people that think the climate was perfect in 1950 in America. The Earth has always gone through warming and cooling cycles, why are we constantly worried about that.

I am part of the chestnut repopulation strategy. They were the dominant tree for generations, and were wiped out by a blight. Yes it was from another continent which wouldn’t have been possible in the past, but nature obviously took them out. Is putting them back in the right thing to do? Do we wish dinosaurs were still the dominant species on the planet?
I think you have to consider each species on its own merit. I am not one of those who believes what was here before the white man got here has precedence. I feel sorry for ranchers in montana who are losing livestock and pets to wolves based on the decision of someone in washington dc.

Some animals - largely the large predators were extirpated because they competed directly with humans. Deer populations were largely decimated due to providing food for humans and habitat loss. To me - it is different bringing deer back compared to wolves or T-Rex
 
Like I said, it depends. Where I've hunted in Kentucky, yeah, I could kill a mature buck over bait. Where I've hunted in Louisiana, I rarely could. Two different worlds and different pressure. Where I've hunted in Louisiana, you don't even see many does when driving down the roads. Traveling the Interstate, once I get to north Alabama and into Tennessee, then Kentucky, I start seeing them. Seeing deer, in general, in daylight is a luxury in some parts. Pressure, not baiting, is the difference.
No body is saying that it makes it easy in the Deep South. Just easier. Of this I have no doubt. And when your chances without are nearly zero due to nocturnal nature of our deer, using bait to enable just a slim chance is a huge improvement mathematically.
 
I think you have to consider each species on its own merit. I am not one of those who believes what was here before the white man got here has precedence. I feel sorry for ranchers in montana who are losing livestock and pets to wolves based on the decision of someone in washington dc.

Some animals - largely the large predators were extirpated because they competed directly with humans. Deer populations were largely decimated due to providing food for humans and habitat loss. To me - it is different bringing deer back compared to wolves or T-Rex
Hunting a T. rex would be cool….

They made a documentary about the dangers of high fencing dinosaurs.
 
Hunting a T. rex would be cool….

They made a documentary about the dangers of high fencing dinosaurs.
My son has a custom double .500 nitro express. Might be a good test.
 
Please understand trail cams to protect property I totally understand. But when you watch so called hunting shows showing a deer on cam 15 minutes before they set up in a blind it's pathetic. I even sent a note to a hunting show and they said they would take it under advisement. I laughed my lmaoofff
 
Please understand trail cams to protect property I totally understand. But when you watch so called hunting shows showing a deer on cam 15 minutes before they set up in a blind it's pathetic. I even sent a note to a hunting show and they said they would take it under advisement. I laughed my lmaoofff
I am still scratching my head why/how trail cams infuriated you to the point where you didn't hunt this year?
 
No body is saying that it makes it easy in the Deep South. Just easier. Of this I have no doubt. And when your chances without are nearly zero due to nocturnal nature of our deer, using bait to enable just a slim chance is a huge improvement mathematically.
Definitely. That's why I was giving my experiences in both places. While it may be a sure thing in some spots, in others, it's not.
 
It seems Iowa has regulations that promote defensive baiting or sanctuary baiting, but not hunting over bait.
 
It seems Iowa has regulations that promote defensive baiting or sanctuary baiting, but not hunting over bait.
Wonder how that is used as a strategy there? I haven’t heard of it being used there but that doesn’t mean anything. I wonder if the juice isn’t worth the squeeze if the neighbors can’t legally hunt over it
 
I just had an hour drive and thought about this whole thread. Most won’t read this whole post….thats ok! It’s more for me.

This whole post is about corn.

There are two good thought experiments I’ve often heard and used dealing with these debates. First is the witch that comes and takes every single man made thing away from humans. She then tells every human if you as a people can make one iPhone I’ll give you everything back. Then she leaves.

Many have debated this question, but the consensus answer is it could never be done. Within a month 99.9% of humans would be dead (watch naked and afraid, and they are given fire starter, knife, and pot). The few left would spend generations just trying to survive, much like humans did for 100k years. People even a mile a way couldn’t communicate, no way to organize. iPhones take mines, factories, computers, electronics, mass communication. No one would be able to even write down what the witch wanted. Thousands of years later, if humans as a species survived, no one would even remember the witch or an iPhone and things would look totally different.

The second is if someone would pay ONE person 50 million dollars IF they could make one of the simplest things humans possess from start to finish….a pencil. The consensus is one person could not do it. You would have to cut a tree and process would down to a pencil. Drill a precise hole down the middle. That’s the easy part. Graphite has to be mined and processed, and takes machines and skill to make into a small tube. What about the tin cap that holds the eraser? Again mining, metallurgy, and forging to make a small precise cap. The rubber? Better be able to drill for oil and process it. And finally, yellow paint. Good luck making that.

I say all that to say that EVERYTHING we have and do was built on years and years and generations of other people and previous technological advancement. Even people that live “off the grid” use advanced tools, materials, and skills to live like they do. Hell homeless people have tents and clothing not available a generation ago.

Now to hunting. I was thinking of the things I use to hunt. My guess is everyone here has used some or all of these things, plus many more.

Clothing: the camo patterns are computer generated to fool a deers eyes. Goretex for water protection and breath ability. That goes for all synthetic fabrics. Insulation in our coveralls. Zippers. Buttons. Even our “traditional” wools are taken from sheep in Bangladesh, shipped to a factory, and machines weave them into tight patterns for our thermal underwear in a way not possible a generation ago.

Guns: modern rifling, machines with specs to make them shoot accurate and reliably. Same with bullet casings, primers, propellant. The bullets themselves are designed by engineers and tested in wind chambers and computers. The materials are created using AI and metallurgy techniques perfected by scientists. Crossbows, compound bows? Generations of tech infinitely better than what they used in midieval times. They can generate force no human could pull back and hold for a reliable shot with the mechanics of the pulleys. And hey, those were all made by machines and craftsmen that can almost guarantee the one you will buy shoots like the next one. Something like that impossible 1000 years ago. Only kings could have craftsmen make 500 years ago. Now I can buy one infinitely better than those used on the battlefields of England for 200 bucks at Cabellas.

Optics: the binos we use, designed over generations by master craftsmen. Took millennia to perfect. Now cut to fractions of a millimeter by machines. Same for rifle scopes. A 199 dollar bushnell would have been the most advanced optics on earth a hundred years back. Mounts on the rifles are reliable. Laser range finders? That is space age tech for 100 bucks. We use on the golf course or stand what was not invented in 1950, and was not available retail until 10-15 years ago.

Food plots: I could go on and on. Tractors, tillers, drills, bush hogs, pallet forks and front end loaders. Grain drills. Sprayers. Chemicals galore.

Seed: imagine if we had to only plant what we grew? No buying a strain scientists made to grow where it’s not supposed to, coated to defy weather patterns and droughts. Synthetic fertilizer? Back to being able to drill for oil and process it. Massive machines that dig rocks from the earth, process it, and let us buy it for 20 bucks at Walmart.

Cars: how do we get to our hunting spot two hours away? Men of Olden days would ride their horse fighting off natives for weeks to get to that honey hole. My wife is mad if I’m not home for dinner. What about the four wheeler we ride to the stand or use to spray?

Hunting stands: I think this might be the biggest tech we have created to help us fool prey. Nature doesn’t have death for large animals in trees. They don’t look up. So we all hunt from aluminum stands we build (ie put together) to outsmart evolution to get above deers nose and eyes. “Well I built my stand.” Where did the hammer and saw and nails come from? Hell even if you used a handsaw there are generations of tech to forge that metal into a cutting blade. Generations. And good luck making your own nails.

I’ve left out many many many things we use to help us kill deer that are way past cheating. But we take them for granted because we have alway had them, or don’t think about the advancements needed to obtain them. Just because grandpa used them doesn’t mean it’s any more fair or lack of technology that gives us an advantage over the deer.

Back to corn. So, no, I don’t think someone pouring corn on the ground to bring in deer is the THING that ruined hunting and made us harvesting a deer “not a fair chase.”
 
Definitely. That's why I was giving my experiences in both places. While it may be a sure thing in some spots, in others, it's not.
Gotcha. Yep. I believe when you combine its effect with the generally more daytime-active Midwest deer, it’s a real cheat code. But I haven’t hunted outside of MS.
 
You think ? Or you know?
it is not that hard to use Google to find out how many tags are being sold in your area, or how many deer are harvested, and by what weapon.
I am waiting for after this season to see how MN shaped up (1st year for x-bow).
no, I am not interested in researching AL. 😂😂😂

I think it was around forty years ago that Ohio made xbows legal, all the archery hunters went nuts. Deer hunting still got better and more deer killed, Ohio became one of the top five trophy states.
Almost half of Ohio's annual deer kill is archery, a little under half of Ohio's total deer kill are antlered bucks....over 70% of archery killed deer are killed by xbows now...Ohio is still in top five trophy states and lots of hunters don't get deer scored.
Baiting is legal too...has been for over a decade...hasn't hurt anything. Xbows are the #1 weapon used to deer hunt in Ohio now, even over guns.
It is what it is.

 
I just had an hour drive and thought about this whole thread. Most won’t read this whole post….thats ok! It’s more for me.

This whole post is about corn.

There are two good thought experiments I’ve often heard and used dealing with these debates. First is the witch that comes and takes every single man made thing away from humans. She then tells every human if you as a people can make one iPhone I’ll give you everything back. Then she leaves.

Many have debated this question, but the consensus answer is it could never be done. Within a month 99.9% of humans would be dead (watch naked and afraid, and they are given fire starter, knife, and pot). The few left would spend generations just trying to survive, much like humans did for 100k years. People even a mile a way couldn’t communicate, no way to organize. iPhones take mines, factories, computers, electronics, mass communication. No one would be able to even write down what the witch wanted. Thousands of years later, if humans as a species survived, no one would even remember the witch or an iPhone and things would look totally different.

The second is if someone would pay ONE person 50 million dollars IF they could make one of the simplest things humans possess from start to finish….a pencil. The consensus is one person could not do it. You would have to cut a tree and process would down to a pencil. Drill a precise hole down the middle. That’s the easy part. Graphite has to be mined and processed, and takes machines and skill to make into a small tube. What about the tin cap that holds the eraser? Again mining, metallurgy, and forging to make a small precise cap. The rubber? Better be able to drill for oil and process it. And finally, yellow paint. Good luck making that.

I say all that to say that EVERYTHING we have and do was built on years and years and generations of other people and previous technological advancement. Even people that live “off the grid” use advanced tools, materials, and skills to live like they do. Hell homeless people have tents and clothing not available a generation ago.

Now to hunting. I was thinking of the things I use to hunt. My guess is everyone here has used some or all of these things, plus many more.

Clothing: the camo patterns are computer generated to fool a deers eyes. Goretex for water protection and breath ability. That goes for all synthetic fabrics. Insulation in our coveralls. Zippers. Buttons. Even our “traditional” wools are taken from sheep in Bangladesh, shipped to a factory, and machines weave them into tight patterns for our thermal underwear in a way not possible a generation ago.

Guns: modern rifling, machines with specs to make them shoot accurate and reliably. Same with bullet casings, primers, propellant. The bullets themselves are designed by engineers and tested in wind chambers and computers. The materials are created using AI and metallurgy techniques perfected by scientists. Crossbows, compound bows? Generations of tech infinitely better than what they used in midieval times. They can generate force no human could pull back and hold for a reliable shot with the mechanics of the pulleys. And hey, those were all made by machines and craftsmen that can almost guarantee the one you will buy shoots like the next one. Something like that impossible 1000 years ago. Only kings could have craftsmen make 500 years ago. Now I can buy one infinitely better than those used on the battlefields of England for 200 bucks at Cabellas.

Optics: the binos we use, designed over generations by master craftsmen. Took millennia to perfect. Now cut to fractions of a millimeter by machines. Same for rifle scopes. A 199 dollar bushnell would have been the most advanced optics on earth a hundred years back. Mounts on the rifles are reliable. Laser range finders? That is space age tech for 100 bucks. We use on the golf course or stand what was not invented in 1950, and was not available retail until 10-15 years ago.

Food plots: I could go on and on. Tractors, tillers, drills, bush hogs, pallet forks and front end loaders. Grain drills. Sprayers. Chemicals galore.

Seed: imagine if we had to only plant what we grew? No buying a strain scientists made to grow where it’s not supposed to, coated to defy weather patterns and droughts. Synthetic fertilizer? Back to being able to drill for oil and process it. Massive machines that dig rocks from the earth, process it, and let us buy it for 20 bucks at Walmart.

Cars: how do we get to our hunting spot two hours away? Men of Olden days would ride their horse fighting off natives for weeks to get to that honey hole. My wife is mad if I’m not home for dinner. What about the four wheeler we ride to the stand or use to spray?

Hunting stands: I think this might be the biggest tech we have created to help us fool prey. Nature doesn’t have death for large animals in trees. They don’t look up. So we all hunt from aluminum stands we build (ie put together) to outsmart evolution to get above deers nose and eyes. “Well I built my stand.” Where did the hammer and saw and nails come from? Hell even if you used a handsaw there are generations of tech to forge that metal into a cutting blade. Generations. And good luck making your own nails.

I’ve left out many many many things we use to help us kill deer that are way past cheating. But we take them for granted because we have alway had them, or don’t think about the advancements needed to obtain them. Just because grandpa used them doesn’t mean it’s any more fair or lack of technology that gives us an advantage over the deer.

Back to corn. So, no, I don’t think someone pouring corn on the ground to bring in deer is the THING that ruined hunting and made us harvesting a deer “not a fair chase.”
I liked the post. I really value your thoughts. But I feel you’re overlooking a lot of nuance.

A thought: Of your list of advantages humans have and have developed, whittle it down to the ones that can literally compel the animal to stand in a specific 20’x20’ spot at a time of your choosing. Or I can save you the trouble. It’s BAIT.

ETA: this is not to bring into question ethics of baiting, only to highlight its unmatched effectiveness at increasing hunter efficiency, outside of season structure itself.
 
I liked the post. I really value your thoughts. But I feel you’re overlooking a lot of nuance.

A thought: Of your list of advantages humans have and have developed, whittle it down to the ones that can literally compel the animal to stand in a specific 20’x20’ spot at a time of your choosing. Or I can save you the trouble. It’s BAIT.

ETA: this is not to bring into question ethics of baiting, only to highlight its unmatched effectiveness at increasing hunter efficiency.
Thanks for the reply! I didn’t think anyone would read it! Ha
 
It seems Iowa has regulations that promote defensive baiting or sanctuary baiting, but not hunting over bait.
I'm not saying it never happens but I've literally never heard of someone doing that. The rules state you cannot use bait to to aid in a hunt. That includes hunting 200 yards away on a trail leading to bait.
Baiting simply isn't part of the culture here. For the most part, we don't even think about it. I've known a farmer or 2 who would "spill" a little corn in a strategic spot now and then but that's pretty rare.
Supplemental feeding after season to reduce winter stress and concentrate deer while shedding is a bit more popular in some circles but still isn't widely done.
 
I'm not saying it never happens but I've literally never heard of someone doing that. The rules state you cannot use bait to to aid in a hunt. That includes hunting 200 yards away on a trail leading to bait.
Baiting simply isn't part of the culture here. For the most part, we don't even think about it. I've known a farmer or 2 who would "spill" a little corn in a strategic spot now and then but that's pretty rare.
Supplemental feeding after season to reduce winter stress and concentrate deer while shedding is a bit more popular in some circles but still isn't widely done.
This is from the Lakosky cam last week:

1701902605376.png
 
This is from the Lakosky cam last week:

View attachment 60242
I'm not in lakoskys circles and couldn't possibly be paying less attention to him. He represents an extremely small portion of iowa hunters.
Like I said, I'm sure it happens, but I've never heard of it.
 
I just had an hour drive and thought about this whole thread. Most won’t read this whole post….thats ok! It’s more for me.

This whole post is about corn.

There are two good thought experiments I’ve often heard and used dealing with these debates. First is the witch that comes and takes every single man made thing away from humans. She then tells every human if you as a people can make one iPhone I’ll give you everything back. Then she leaves.

Many have debated this question, but the consensus answer is it could never be done. Within a month 99.9% of humans would be dead (watch naked and afraid, and they are given fire starter, knife, and pot). The few left would spend generations just trying to survive, much like humans did for 100k years. People even a mile a way couldn’t communicate, no way to organize. iPhones take mines, factories, computers, electronics, mass communication. No one would be able to even write down what the witch wanted. Thousands of years later, if humans as a species survived, no one would even remember the witch or an iPhone and things would look totally different.

The second is if someone would pay ONE person 50 million dollars IF they could make one of the simplest things humans possess from start to finish….a pencil. The consensus is one person could not do it. You would have to cut a tree and process would down to a pencil. Drill a precise hole down the middle. That’s the easy part. Graphite has to be mined and processed, and takes machines and skill to make into a small tube. What about the tin cap that holds the eraser? Again mining, metallurgy, and forging to make a small precise cap. The rubber? Better be able to drill for oil and process it. And finally, yellow paint. Good luck making that.

I say all that to say that EVERYTHING we have and do was built on years and years and generations of other people and previous technological advancement. Even people that live “off the grid” use advanced tools, materials, and skills to live like they do. Hell homeless people have tents and clothing not available a generation ago.

Now to hunting. I was thinking of the things I use to hunt. My guess is everyone here has used some or all of these things, plus many more.

Clothing: the camo patterns are computer generated to fool a deers eyes. Goretex for water protection and breath ability. That goes for all synthetic fabrics. Insulation in our coveralls. Zippers. Buttons. Even our “traditional” wools are taken from sheep in Bangladesh, shipped to a factory, and machines weave them into tight patterns for our thermal underwear in a way not possible a generation ago.

Guns: modern rifling, machines with specs to make them shoot accurate and reliably. Same with bullet casings, primers, propellant. The bullets themselves are designed by engineers and tested in wind chambers and computers. The materials are created using AI and metallurgy techniques perfected by scientists. Crossbows, compound bows? Generations of tech infinitely better than what they used in midieval times. They can generate force no human could pull back and hold for a reliable shot with the mechanics of the pulleys. And hey, those were all made by machines and craftsmen that can almost guarantee the one you will buy shoots like the next one. Something like that impossible 1000 years ago. Only kings could have craftsmen make 500 years ago. Now I can buy one infinitely better than those used on the battlefields of England for 200 bucks at Cabellas.

Optics: the binos we use, designed over generations by master craftsmen. Took millennia to perfect. Now cut to fractions of a millimeter by machines. Same for rifle scopes. A 199 dollar bushnell would have been the most advanced optics on earth a hundred years back. Mounts on the rifles are reliable. Laser range finders? That is space age tech for 100 bucks. We use on the golf course or stand what was not invented in 1950, and was not available retail until 10-15 years ago.

Food plots: I could go on and on. Tractors, tillers, drills, bush hogs, pallet forks and front end loaders. Grain drills. Sprayers. Chemicals galore.

Seed: imagine if we had to only plant what we grew? No buying a strain scientists made to grow where it’s not supposed to, coated to defy weather patterns and droughts. Synthetic fertilizer? Back to being able to drill for oil and process it. Massive machines that dig rocks from the earth, process it, and let us buy it for 20 bucks at Walmart.

Cars: how do we get to our hunting spot two hours away? Men of Olden days would ride their horse fighting off natives for weeks to get to that honey hole. My wife is mad if I’m not home for dinner. What about the four wheeler we ride to the stand or use to spray?

Hunting stands: I think this might be the biggest tech we have created to help us fool prey. Nature doesn’t have death for large animals in trees. They don’t look up. So we all hunt from aluminum stands we build (ie put together) to outsmart evolution to get above deers nose and eyes. “Well I built my stand.” Where did the hammer and saw and nails come from? Hell even if you used a handsaw there are generations of tech to forge that metal into a cutting blade. Generations. And good luck making your own nails.

I’ve left out many many many things we use to help us kill deer that are way past cheating. But we take them for granted because we have alway had them, or don’t think about the advancements needed to obtain them. Just because grandpa used them doesn’t mean it’s any more fair or lack of technology that gives us an advantage over the deer.

Back to corn. So, no, I don’t think someone pouring corn on the ground to bring in deer is the THING that ruined hunting and made us harvesting a deer “not a fair chase.”
I read the whole thing.. This is akin to golf. The equipment keeps getting more advanced and expensive yet the average golf score has remained around 100. The whole premise of this thread is absurd - but it has generated a lot of interesting conversation! Some of you will be getting new keyboards for Christmas...or don't we use those any more!
 
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