Ma. Deer project leader being evasive.

[MA VT Flatlander]

On August 3rd I wrote our deer project leader and asked him this question. My question is what is the deer population in zone 7 ? you say there are about 90,000 deer in the state. How many of those deer are in zone 7? His reply back to me was.

Estimating animal numbers is not easy. There are entire textbooks on it and no one perfect way. We use several sources of data for deer to come up with ranges and trends (harvest, biological data collected by staff, hunter survey data, vegetation data, deer surveys, etc.). But, if we are talking numbers, it is easier to talk in densities, so that the size of the area can be taken out of the equation (e.g., not all zones and towns are the same size).
We have a statewide goal to keep deer numbers below the level where major impacts are seen to the habitat, but in balance with social desires/tolerance. For the western and central parts of the state (zones 1-9), this means a management range of 12-18 deer per square mile of forest. Above 18, you start to see forest impacts. For the most part, deer densities tend to be within this range and on the rise in zones 1-9. So, Zone 7 would be in the 12-18 deer per square mile of forest range. There are always exceptions and deer numbers will be patchy on the landscape: some areas can be heavily hunted or have poor deer habitat and see lower densities and other areas can have limitations on hunting (within discharge setbacks or otherwise closed to hunting) and see deer numbers well above this. So, it is near impossible to say there are x deer in this particular town.
I don’t publish harvest per town on the website because everyone’s inclination is to see it and say this town had twice as many deer shot, so there must be twice as many deer – I’m going there. It won’t give you much of an idea for how one town compares to another for deer numbers, because it is highly related to how much land is open to hunting and hunter effort (how many hunters). If you really want to know buck harvest for certain towns, I can send those, but I wanted to tell you that first…
Let me know if this was helpful or if I can help you with anything else,


Regards

 

[dipper]

That sounds like a fair answer. He just can't say. He gave u reasons why. Some places have more deer, some have less, so he can not say.
Guys this is a complicated issue, and there is limited resources. I know everyone expects everything from these guys, it's just not realistic.
If your not happy, and smarter than everyone else. Create a way of achieving your desires.

 

[MA VT Flatlander]

Well I replied back that I would like the buck kill for the two towns I own property in that he said he would send. One month later am still waiting.

I asked him how he came up with 2250 antlerless deer permits for zone 7. Suggested he split zone 7 into north of the turnpike and south of the turnpike. Towns south of the pike have more deer because towns there are restricted hunting by written permission only.

 

[wiscwhip]

Well he did give a density range, whether or not that is based in some scientific data or not is another story. I think many states(j-bird in IN) that either don't collect data at all or limited data sometimes just throw out the old 12-18 range, because that seems to be the low end tolerance for hunter satisfaction, as in, many hunters are happy with those numbers as long as they are seeing a few deer on stand, they seem believable. Now tell a guy that when he is seeing nothing on stand(sandbur in MN) and he will start to scream BS and want much more information. I would personally start requesting all data on every metric your state collects on the deer herd and what they use to set those quota numbers. This is all public information and either he or one of his minions is required by law to get you that info or at least make it available to you in a timely fashion, or you put up a huge stink with your state Representatives as stu has stated. They are your employees, you pay their wages, both the DNR guy and the Reps and you are entitled to this information.

 

[j-bird]

Answers? Hahahahaha!

 

[SD51555]

Huh.

You know we "typically" hear the same forest impact at 18 DPSM here too. Afterall, all habitat is the same across the landscape.

 

[MA VT Flatlander]

MA,

Don't you have to check in or report deer taken and town of kill? If so that should all be entered into a database at the state. We are passed 8 months into this year so I'd think they have that info readily available. After all he is the deer project leader. NH publishes a booklet each year with the town and county kills for deer and bear.

Yes in shotgun season deer need to be brought to a check station. Where biologist weigh them and check the teeth, they measure the antler base with calipers, ask what town and zone it was killed in, and if taken on public or private property.

I am sure it is in a data base.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

Here in Pa., we were told for years that all the deer harvest data was taken from actual harvest report cards. And they were all kept for the public to view if anyone doubted the numbers. Well ......... after numbers of deer seen " on the hoof " kept dropping, some folks took the PGC to task and wanted to see all the " actual harvest report cards ". The state backed off and said the cards were used as a guide and that the kill numbers put out to the public were a " good estimate "

So take your state's " O - FICIAL " report numbers with a grain of salt. ( Not that they all tend to do and say the same things, densities, etc. ) :rolleyes:

 

[wiscwhip]

Yes in shotgun season deer need to be brought to a check station. Where biologist weigh them and check the teeth, they measure the antler base with calipers, ask what town and zone it was killed in, and if taken on public or private property.

I am sure it is in a data base.

Pound them for this info and you can scrutinize it as to whether it is worth bothering the electrons they used to send it to you. I(and I'm sure others on here) would be glad to look it over and give you an honest opinion on whether I think it would be relevant data or not. It is not all that hard to decipher whether it is realistic usable data or smoke and mirrors. As I said before, get every piece of info they gather and you can start putting the puzzle pieces together.

 

[dipper]

What's the puzzle? This state clearly doesn't care to know their population. You don't even have to register a deer u harvest. If that doesn't tell u the state doesn't value herd estimates and data, what else do u need? They don't know. You guys are so funny, u think there is the massive conspiracy about deer and hunters.
It's the same way in some western states I've hunted. You don't register your deer. The state doesn't wAnt to commit $ to knowing.
Wi has been the standard for their work with the deer. The people bitched and the governor said, ok less $, less resources to the dnr. It's what the people want, right? Be careful for what u wish for.

 

[bat man]

When the state agency tasked with managing the resource intentionally deceives the public to accomplish an agenda they need taken to task.

So take them to task, and harness the power of social media to share the deception.

 

[dipper]

Power to the people!!!!!!hahaha

 

[bat man]

You could shove your head in the sand and ignorantly assume whatever the govt does is the best possible scenario. That is also an option. Just not a real good one. One that wont result in any positive change.

 

[dipper]

Everyone needs a hobby I guess. If trying to stick it to Uncle Sam is ure passion, to each his own. If that makes u happy, thats great.

 

[bat man]

You interpret a quest for transparency and accountability regarding management of public resources as sticking it to someone. Strange.

 

[wiscwhip]

Glad dipper isn't in charge of overseeing our tax codes, they would really be sketchy and abused worse than they are now if they were dealt with on his terms.

 

[wooduck]

Everyone needs a hobby I guess. If trying to stick it to Uncle Sam is ure passion, to each his own. If that makes u happy, thats great.

Dipper didn't you know there is now two big game seasons in Minnesota,, Whitetails sept 20 thru dec 31 choose your season bow, firearms , muzzy, , Then there is the other season Boogie man (DNR) most use a computer , seasons run January thru early sept no limit take all the shots you need to get your way .

Lighten up a bit the DNR in Minnesota did what you asked let the process play out

 

[bat man]

Lighten up a bit the DNR in Minnesota did what you asked let the process play out

The have not done what we requested. That is why an audit is happening as we speak.

They have no plans to include hunters when they pen the written deer plan. Because they don't want to do as we request.

Its not time to lighten up. But I appreciate your efforts to dictate my actions.

 

[wooduck]

Was not an effort to dictate to anyone ,,Do as you please its still a semi free country,, Another thought cry wolf enough and maybe sooner than later no one will hear it anymore , Let the audit move forward and the deer plan be implemented and I will bet the boogie man (DNR) will be all wrong no matter how it plays out . Some of the extreme deer pops will never happen for all kinds of reasons and some don't have anything to do with DNR

 

[MA VT Flatlander]

That sounds like a fair answer. He just can't say. He gave u reasons why. Some places have more deer, some have less, so he can not say.
Guys this is a complicated issue, and there is limited resources. I know everyone expects everything from these guys, it's just not realistic.
If your not happy, and smarter than everyone else. Create a way of achieving your desires.

Dipper,

What's the puzzle? This state clearly doesn't care to know their population. You don't even have to register a deer u harvest. If that doesn't tell u the state doesn't value herd estimates and data, what else do u need? They don't know. You guys are so funny, u think there is the massive conspiracy about deer and hunters.
It's the same way in some western states I've hunted. You don't register your deer. The state doesn't wAnt to commit $ to knowing.
Wi has been the standard for their work with the deer. The people bitched and the governor said, ok less $, less resources to the dnr. It's what the people want, right? Be careful for what u wish for.

The deer are registered in Massachusetts when you take them to the check station they put a metal seal on them with a number. You have 48 hr. to check your deer in.
Archery season and muzzle loader season you can check them in on line, and are issued a confirmation number.