Ma. Deer project leader being evasive.

Seems like every thread lately somehow goes back to MN? And ends up in a bickering fest.

MA VT Flatlander...his reply to you does sound evasive. I have asked the same thing before. If you ever came out and hunted zone 1 (west of Rte. 8 in Northern Berkshire County) I think you would be shocked by the paucity of deer and turkey. It frustrates me. Back in the mid 80's through the 90's when turkey hunting first started you could go out on the last day of the season and still hear plenty of birds and call one in and have a good time. Today, it is hard to even locate a gobbler the weekend before the season opens. The forest is sterile...void of wildlife. His DPSM estimate to you for western Mass. is probably double what it actually is here around Mt. Greylock and environs.

Natty his DPMS estimate for zone 7 not close to what is in the woods around here 8-10 is more like it.. All the hunters I talk to are complaining they don't see deer. I have hunted Savoy state forest in the past. Not worth the drive up there for me.
 
At the end of the day, hunters always will want more deer and the rest of society will want less. Just because hunters are a management tool of the dnr, doesn't mean we will get our way.
 
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Grass isn't always greener...
 
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There also seems to be a false sense that wi has a deer behind every tree. It doesn't! Some areas hold more deer than others. Like my properties, some specific pockets in these prime areas, hold really high amounts of deer. There are many places in my county that hardly have a deer.
These land owners have Still paid up to $6000-$7000/ acre for strictly hunting land. You would fall out of your chair if you knew property taxes on that land. Hell there are guys down the road from me that paid $1000/acre on land they can't even cut a tree on. They don't own the timber on their land and they are paying $1800 a year in taxes on 40 acres. They can't clear some trees for a food plot, nothing. It's basically a $40,000 deer lease on a 40 acre chunk.
Let's all raise our hands on who pays this much $ for strictly hunting land and taxes?
Now let's imagine who's gonna have better hunting? A entire neighborhood of rich guys who want mega bucks, or a blue collar section, where guys want meat! The dnr wants the deer shot just as much as any place else, guys just aren't shooting.
My relative turned down $1.1 million for 275 acres, and he never had it for sale. If u wanna put your $ where your mouth is, I might be able to help you negotiate $1.5? Your gonna need an easy 5 digits for taxes a year, so budget wisely.
Keep dreaming boys, quality deer hunting doesn't come cheap. If u got the $, you will get awesome hunting. Otherwise, deal with seeing a deer now and than!
This bold print^^^ can not be ignored.
 
:)
 
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I guess a simple question for Dipper and wooduck would be how many deer do you see on your property on an average sit? 5? 10? 20?

What number would it take for you to be concerned with low deer numbers around your land? 5 per sit? 1 per sit? 1 per every 5 sits? 1 per season?

Truthfully, would your view change if you had low numbers where you saw one per season on your land?
Last season in area 225 that was voted for a 50 percent increase last spring , we averaged 5 plus deer per evening sit about 2 hrs at the current populations that's enough to keep us happy , fill tags easily and have a good time . But very near here the population can be dismal so rather than keep the season the same zone wide an increase was chosen , Using some logic of the deer groups they increased the entire area rather than just the low population areas , Micro managing deer wont work too many other factors .

What we call quality hunting is probably not what some other call quality hunting so another factor involved , we are just easier to please as our standards are not unrealistic we don't have to have a 150 inch buck every season to be satisfied , We go out fill the tags with what comes down the trail and are happy and we would be happy with half as many .
 
My place is in a poor area of a poor county with poor soil. Small parcels are the norm. My expectations for deer hunting must remain reasonable for this area or I'd drive myself nuts dreaming about how good it "could/should" be.

Most "younger" bucks that guys share pictures of on this and other sites will NOT get passed on by hunters in my area or even on my property for that matter.
 
Solid points by Dipper and the Duck.

Most hunters can't stop shooting if they have a tag nearby. They dug their own little holes, and the real bitch is they are not part of the effort to fix their own ignorance.

I have solid hunting and I sit here and argue with other guys that actively manage their own herd.

Our DNR does not want to 'fix' their 'problem'. Just like Dipper stated and most of know, we are the tool to lower the numbers. Imagine how many deer there would be if every parcel was 'managed' for deer. Ducks 5 deer per sit is likely more than the DNR is managing for.

I just don't like the way our crew has duped the masses into pulling the trigger.
 
The early antlerless rifle seasons and unlimited doe tags destroyed our local herd especially the public lands. Years later even with lower tags given out its still not the same. But it is improving. Hopefully that trend will continue.
 
Natty his DPMS estimate for zone 7 not close to what is in the woods around here 8-10 is more like it.. All the hunters I talk to are complaining they don't see deer. I have hunted Savoy state forest in the past. Not worth the drive up there for me.

I live in Savoy and hunt here as well. You nailed it. Back in the 80's and early 90's the roads would be lined with trucks on opening day and the weekends. Now, it's silent. No hunters, and very few deer. I do enjoy the low hunter density. But it would be nice to see a deer every now and then. I'm in a thick spruce and mixed hardwood grove...no ag for miles, and no hard mast at all. I'm hoping a few small food plots that I am working on will help.
 
The early antlerless rifle seasons and unlimited doe tags destroyed our local herd especially the public lands. Years later even with lower tags given out its still not the same. But it is improving. Hopefully that trend will continue.
You are preaching to the d@mn choir there bueller. Juneau Co had better hunting in the 70's when I was just a pup tagging along with the crew than it has had in the last 6 or 7 years and the decline was ALL due to mismanagement by the DNR and their unlimited antlerless tags and T-Zone/Kill-'Em-All type season structure. Some of the guys that have just started hunting Juneau Co in the last 10-12 years will never know how good it was when I was growing up. The potential for it being that good again is clouded now by the kill-'em-all mentality that the DNR insisted upon throughout the 2000's and the constant expansion of the area around the big lakes.
 
Natty,

Any updates on your plots from your earlier thread?

Funny you ask I was going to post an update of all my summer work on my new land...plots. logging, tree planting, etc. I'll get it up this weekend. But yes, I'm excited. Got a lot of work done, but still need one more summer to grind or pull stumps, clear brush, etc. Hoping to get some winter rye down this weekend.
 
Last season in area 225 that was voted for a 50 percent increase last spring , we averaged 5 plus deer per evening sit about 2 hrs at the current populations that's enough to keep us happy , fill tags easily and have a good time . But very near here the population can be dismal so rather than keep the season the same zone wide an increase was chosen , Using some logic of the deer groups they increased the entire area rather than just the low population areas , Micro managing deer wont work too many other factors .

What we call quality hunting is probably not what some other call quality hunting so another factor involved , we are just easier to please as our standards are not unrealistic we don't have to have a 150 inch buck every season to be satisfied , We go out fill the tags with what comes down the trail and are happy and we would be happy with half as many .
Not all of us are fixed on the big bucks. We just want to see some deer and have enough deer for kids to have continued interest. Firearms safety instructors said they could not keep kids interested in hunting as none of them were seeing deer. It was that bad.

Our efforts are for a reasonable deer herd with a chance of seeing a deer over a weekend hunt.
 
Regarding Wisconsin, do I think the DNR has made some mistakes...yes. But, I always try and put things in perspective. If your formative hunting years were the late 80's and 90's you have a skewed view of what deer hunting should be (in my opinion). 1970 had a gun success rate of 14.5%, 1978 had a record kill and success rate 23%. 1980- 1984 had 4 consecutive years of record harvests with a 39% success rate in '84. 1990 had a record number of licenses sold, (700,000) and the success rate was 50%!! Since then it's ranged from 40-50%. I may add that the number of licenses sold from 1970 - the record year of 1990 was only an increase of 40%.

I started hunting in 1972, there were many years we would have a party tag (could shoot 1 doe between us), and we never saw anything to fire a bullet at. I understand that there are parts of the State where the deer herd has been negatively affected from policy, wolves, etc. ,but in the grand scheme deer hunting in this State overall is still pretty good...especially from a historical perspective.
 
Life is choices
 
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Here's another thing, you guys read into others success/ lack of success, way to much. I don't care what the state or county numbers are, I worry about my hunting and my land. I could careless how many deer everyone else has, I'm worried about myself.
 
it's your choice to hunt where you do. If u can't afford to up grade, u can't afford it.
Just like anything in this world it's all about $ and attitude!

Nice. You go stand in front of a group of kids on their hunter safety field day and tell them that. See where that takes the future of hunting. "Buck up kids, the deer are gone and since you have no cash and your dad won't buy you a good place to hunt, your screwed. To hell with your excitement and the future of our sport. I have a lot of deer."

I could careless how many deer everyone else has, I'm worried about myself.

We all know that Dipper.
 
It will get better
 
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Seeing and killing deer in the US has never been a rich mans sport. It will only get that way if people like you dictate policy. Your callous and self centered nature mostly disgusts me.
 
:)
 
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