Thoughts on culling bucks with poor genetic potential.

[SwampCat]

Kind of interesting. It seems that all the answers to not culling a genetically weaker young buck applies in the positive to harvesting does late in the season. All the answers that “make sense” make no impact due to the scientists.

Ask Wired To Hunt: Should You Shoot Does After the Rut?

Should you shoot does after the rut? It’s a question I see debated on social media regularly this time of year and it’s something I’ve pondered myself. Having thoroughly examined the pros and cons, as well as my own specific circumstances, I’ve always answered with a definitive yes. If the doe...

www.themeateater.com

That article is heavily based upon the premise for the doe harvest that you NEED to remove does - not that you want to kill a doe for food. Yes, if you are killing them to reduce deer density - then anytime is good. That is not my case. We very selectively harvest a doe or two, based upon our fawn recruitment of that year or previous year. We are not killing does to reduce density - we are killing them for some fine eating and only when we feel fawn recruitment that year or previous year justifies the removal of a doe or two.

We like to take a 1.5 yr old doe - with no fawn. If you wait until the end of december, it is impossible to determine if that doe had a fawn earlier in the fall and it can be difficult at that point to determine age based upon body size and shape. That is why we do camera surveys in Sept.

I think in the article, they are speaking in generalities. As far as not being able to influence genetics of the herd - I will buy that - for the most part. I will not buy that you cannot influence genetics of a next spring’s individual fawn. The number of does thought to be breed by a mature buck in a wild herd varies greatly by the articles I have read - but IN GENERAL seems to fall between two and four. I have high buck numbers on my place - so probably toward the lower side.

Whether true or not, we hunters generally think that the biggest buck on our place is carrying some good genetics. I know on deer farms - typically the biggest buck is considered the most valuable breeder. I consider the same on my farm. If my biggest buck (or one of top 25% bucks) breeds a doe - and this is theory on my part - that doe’s offspring will carry genetic material of my best buck. Again, in theory - the fawn produced from that breeding stands to have a better chance of being a better genetic specimen. No, the overall genetics of the herd may not be genetically altered - but that single fawn is. I believe that is how the biggest bucks of the place are made. Purely Chance meetings of genetically Superior parents - that produce a true a anomaly for the area. Since a mature buck may only breed three does in a year, it would be a shame if one or two of his breedings came to naught because someone killed a doe in January to make hamburger out of. Early to mid Oct doe harvest will curtail that.

Now, to the 6-8 lbs food per deer per day. Our state’s private land doe hunt was mid Oct and now it is around first of Jan - 75 days later - the two does we might normally take would eat approximately a half ton of food combined in that period of time. In the big picture, my remaining deer are not going to die of starvation, but grazing my wheat/clover food plots provides a very high protein source at a time of the year when other high quality forages are scarce. I want my deer to be in as good health as possible coming out of winter to benefit fawn production and antler growth. A half ton of food lost is a half ton of food lost.

While I am a trained wildlife biologist - I dang sure am not a specialized deer bio. A lot of theory here.
L

 

[omicron1792]

That article is heavily based upon the premise for the doe harvest that you NEED to remove does - not that you want to kill a doe for food. Yes, if you are killing them to reduce deer density - then anytime is good. That is not my case. We very selectively harvest a doe or two, based upon our fawn recruitment of that year or previous year. We are not killing does to reduce density - we are killing them for some fine eating and only when we feel fawn recruitment that year or previous year justifies the removal of a doe or two.

We like to take a 1.5 yr old doe - with no fawn. If you wait until the end of december, it is impossible to determine if that doe had a fawn earlier in the fall and it can be difficult at that point to determine age based upon body size and shape. That is why we do camera surveys in Sept.

I think in the article, they are speaking in generalities. As far as not being able to influence genetics of the herd - I will buy that - for the most part. I will not buy that you cannot influence genetics of a next spring’s individual fawn. The number of does thought to be breed by a mature buck in a wild herd varies greatly by the articles I have read - but IN GENERAL seems to fall between two and four. I have high buck numbers on my place - so probably toward the lower side.

Whether true or not, we hunters generally think that the biggest buck on our place is carrying some good genetics. I know on deer farms - typically the biggest buck is considered the most valuable breeder. I consider the same on my farm. If my biggest buck (or one of top 25% bucks) breeds a doe - and this is theory on my part - that doe’s offspring will carry genetic material of my best buck. Again, in theory - the fawn produced from that breeding stands to have a better chance of being a better genetic specimen. No, the overall genetics of the herd may not be genetically altered - but that single fawn is. I believe that is how the biggest bucks of the place are made. Purely Chance meetings of genetically Superior parents - that produce a true a anomaly for the area. Since a mature buck may only breed three does in a year, it would be a shame if one or two of his breedings came to naught because someone killed a doe in January to make hamburger out of. Early to mid Oct doe harvest will curtail that.

Now, to the 6-8 lbs food per deer per day. Our state’s private land doe hunt was mid Oct and now it is around first of Jan - 75 days later - the two does we might normally take would eat approximately a half ton of food combined in that period of time. In the big picture, my remaining deer are not going to die of starvation, but grazing my wheat/clover food plots provides a very high protein source at a time of the year when other high quality forages are scarce. I want my deer to be in as good health as possible coming out of winter to benefit fawn production and antler growth. A half ton of food lost is a half ton of food lost.

While I am a trained wildlife biologist - I dang sure am not
L

I was just giving the board a hard time. Ha.

I think same as you.

I will say the same argument could be made on culling a smaller racked buck before rut. Get him out of way, and you know your does will be bred by larger bucks on your property. That is fact.

Will that effect genetics, my guess is some. Not alot. Not enough for scientists to say it does. But you will have better genetic deer running around the next year. No doubt some of those deer leave area, but some might stay.

I think my original point was what if as a group hunters followed these strategies. Would it make a difference?

I often read about needing 1-2k acres to make a difference. I will say in my experience that is a lot of land to manage. Unless extremely wealthy or extremely well organized I’m not sure those people do any better than I do on my 300. You would have to cull so many deer on 2k acres and feed them so much. I think people like @Baker have figured it out. My guess is many of the large land owners have not.

Great convo!

 

[SwampCat]

I was just giving the board a hard time. Ha.

I think same as you.

I will say the same argument could be made on culling a smaller racked buck before rut. Get him out of way, and you know your does will be bred by larger bucks on your property. That is fact.

Will that effect genetics, my guess is some. Not alot. Not enough for scientists to say it does. But you will have better genetic deer running around the next year. No doubt some of those deer leave area, but some might stay.

I think my original point was what if as a group hunters followed these strategies. Would it make a difference?

I often read about needing 1-2k acres to make a difference. I will say in my experience that is a lot of land to manage. Unless extremely wealthy or extremely well organized I’m not sure those people do any better than I do on my 300. You would have to cull so many deer on 2k acres and feed them so much. I think people like @Baker have figured it out. My guess is many of the large land owners have not.

Great convo!

I agree with you in theory. I cant help but think removing bucks with a specific trait - like no brow tines - would at least keep that specific buck from passing his genes. But, the recognized fact that buck fawns tend to leave the area - you may never see the fruits of your labor - although your does will be less likely to carry that bad gene. We try to take the obvious mutant buck, but if we killed every buck that displayed some form of undesirable trait, we wouldnt have but five left. But, we have about six different folks who hunt occasionally including some grandkids. We all like deer meat, but we never feel like we have enough does to kill four or five. On my home ground 350 acres, we have killed one buck and one doe this year. I would prefer them to kill a subpar buck - but it can be hard to get folks to do that mid season. They will the last weekend of season - but then you cant find one.

 

[omicron1792]

I agree with you in theory. I cant help but think removing bucks with a specific trait - like no brow tines - would at least keep that specific buck from passing his genes. But, the recognized fact that buck fawns tend to leave the area - you may never see the fruits of your labor - although your does will be less likely to carry that bad gene. We try to take the obvious mutant buck, but if we killed every buck that displayed some form of undesirable trait, we wouldnt have but five left. But, we have about six different folks who hunt occasionally including some grandkids. We all like deer meat, but we never feel like we have enough does to kill four or five. On my home ground 350 acres, we have killed one buck and one doe this year. I would prefer them to kill a subpar buck - but it can be hard to get folks to do that mid season. They will the last weekend of season - but then you cant find one.

That last week you should kill your does….

I kid my friend.

 

[BenAllgood]

I used to lease 2100 acres. We formed a cooperative with other clubs in the area. We had around 30,000 contiguous acres. It was pretty eye opening to see "my bucks" on the opposite end of the co-op. And, this wasn't just one or two bucks. It was multiple. And, it was bucks that were recognizable. Meaning, we weren't taking into account your average 8 points. It really opened my eyes about how much ground you would need to control to "manage" a herd or even affect genetics to a minute degree. This wasn't habitat with a lack of food or cover either. It was bottomland hardwoods that were select cut regularly. The bucks didn't need to go far, but they did.

 

[Brian662]

I think ~70% of yearling bucks get dispersed by their mothers and move on to other locations between 2-10 miles away according to studies done.

If you feel your habitat and health of your herd are superior to your neighbor's then you should be shooting does with buck fawns to stop the dispersal.

 

[SwampCat]

I have performed camera surveys for the past ten or twelve years. When I first started, we had ten or twelve does. That was back in the days we attempted to balance the herd by shooting the does down to match buck numbers. But even in those low doe days - we would have 15 resident bucks. We pretty much lost them all during rut - but they were here the rest of the year. Now we have 40 does - and only slightly more bucks than we used to have - maybe 18 to 20. But they dont tend to leave during rut - and we are much more likely to see different bucks during rut that we had not previously seen.

I think there is so much influence that is specific to the local area - habitat, land use, hunter habits, adjacent land owners, free roaming dogs, predation, food availability - so many things that make a lot of the studies non-applicable to your own area.

I have an area at the far corner of my property that is adjacent to 200 acres of four or five yr old clearcut on my neighbors’ ground. Almost impenetrable. Perfect bedding. I have had two big bucks use a feed location for three years in a row in that area. Two 150” bucks in the same picture in my area is unheard of. We tried to kill them starting when the deer were 4.5 yrs old. Both deer were killed last year when they were 6.5 - one by us and one by the neighbor.

I always considered that area the best big buck habitat on my place. A mile and half from the nearest road. Very seldom visited by neighbors. 200 acres of bedding cover. Great doe population. My very best food plot. Was really interested to see what showed up there this year. Biggest buck I got on camera in that area this year was a 90” eight point. I had several big bucks living almost in my front yard with barking dogs, paved highway, school buses, etc. But down in the bottoms away from everything - no buck over 2 years old. Maybe those bucks fill the void by growing into it instead of moving into it.

 

[Catscratch]

Hmmm. Lots of great reading here!
What do you guys think of this scenario; I seldom shoot a buck or a doe. Maybe 1 buck every couple of years. I have a great balance of buck to doe according to camera surveys and eye witness. The rut can be spectacular. My place has plenty of food and browse surveys show that there isn't any shortage to the food supply. With that said we get big herds of does in the late winter due to ag (there's no ag for 20 miles east of my place). The neighbor adjacent has started aggressively harvesting does in Jan (when our herds get big). What's you all's thought; harvest does along with him, don't harvest "my own" does, does his herd reduction help my hunting or hurt my hunting? Etc

 

[SwampCat]

Hmmm. Lots of great reading here!
What do you guys think of this scenario; I seldom shoot a buck or a doe. Maybe 1 buck every couple of years. I have a great balance of buck to doe according to camera surveys and eye witness. The rut can be spectacular. My place has plenty of food and browse surveys show that there isn't any shortage to the food supply. With that said we get big herds of does in the late winter due to ag (there's no ag for 20 miles east of my place). The neighbor adjacent has started aggressively harvesting does in Jan (when our herds get big). What's you all's thought; harvest does along with him, don't harvest "my own" does, does his herd reduction help my hunting or hurt my hunting? Etc

From experience on my place-
Neighbors shooting does doesnt help me, and no, I wouldnt join in

 

[omicron1792]

Hmmm. Lots of great reading here!
What do you guys think of this scenario; I seldom shoot a buck or a doe. Maybe 1 buck every couple of years. I have a great balance of buck to doe according to camera surveys and eye witness. The rut can be spectacular. My place has plenty of food and browse surveys show that there isn't any shortage to the food supply. With that said we get big herds of does in the late winter due to ag (there's no ag for 20 miles east of my place). The neighbor adjacent has started aggressively harvesting does in Jan (when our herds get big). What's you all's thought; harvest does along with him, don't harvest "my own" does, does his herd reduction help my hunting or hurt my hunting? Etc

Seems like most biologists say harvest does harvest does harvest does.

The old timers say leave does alone. But I think that’s burned in memory from back when you couldn’t harvest them.

I personally like to have a lot of does for rut purposes, but I try to harvest one a beginning of season (see swamp) and then one at end.

 

[SwampCat]

Seems like most biologists say harvest does harvest does harvest does.

The old timers say leave does alone. But I think that’s burned in memory from back when you couldn’t harvest them.

I personally like to have a lot of does for rut purposes, but I try to harvest one a beginning of season (see swamp) and then one at end.

View attachment 60708

The biologist told me to harvest does. We killed them until we had a 1:1 buck:doe ratio. Then we ran out of deer. You might can shoot the crap out of your does when your fawn recruitment numbers are one fawn per doe. You cant do it when your fawn recruitment numbers are .3 per doe. Believe me, it takes a lot longer to get your does back than it does to get rid of them.

My personal opinion - a lot of these “shoot your doe” comments are made without knowing what your true fawn recruitment numbers are. At my place - that makes a huge difference.

 

[Brian662]

The biologist told me to harvest does. We killed them until we had a 1:1 buck:doe ratio. Then we ran out of deer. You might can shoot the crap out of your does when your fawn recruitment numbers are one fawn per doe. You cant do it when your fawn recruitment numbers are .3 per doe. Believe me, it takes a lot longer to get your does back than it does to get rid of them.

My personal opinion - a lot of these “shoot your doe” comments are made without knowing what your true fawn recruitment numbers are. At my place - that makes a huge difference.

Believe me when I say, your situation is not normal. Most people (especially on this forum) make habitat improvements and their doe recruitment is such that they can harvest a substantial amount of does relative to the acres they own. Some people's property all it takes to attract does is a few food plots if the neighbors don't have them, others already have high populations including a few of mine. I truly believe your situation is somewhat of an anomaly, but it is a good reminder for others to use caution.

 

[Angus 1895]

It’s weird here in Idaho ( lemhi county) does have two fawns usually into January.

Maybe 1.6? I can’t fathom that low of fawn count.

 

[SwampCat]

Believe me when I say, your situation is not normal. Most people (especially on this forum) make habitat improvements and their doe recruitment is such that they can harvest a substantial amount of does relative to the acres they own. Some people's property all it takes to attract does is a few food plots if the neighbors don't have them, others already have high populations including a few of mine. I truly believe your situation is somewhat of an anomaly, but it is a good reminder for others to use caution.

15 adjacent property owners see to it that I dont have an excess of does. Combine that with AR having one of the lowest fawn recruitment numbers in the nation - sub .5.

success with our deer herd is all about the does. We worry about the bucks after we take care of the does.

 

[SwampCat]

It’s weird here in Idaho ( lemhi county) does have two fawns usually into January.

Maybe 1.6? I can’t fathom that low of fawn count.

If our fawn recruitment was that high, we would be hunting deer like we do feral hogs

 

[Angus 1895]

If our fawn recruitment was that high, we would be hunting deer like we do feral hogs

Yeah the whitetail population finally got so dense about 5 years ago, a bunch of them got sick and perished.

The mule deer are a different deal, they have been on a steady decline for decades.

 

[S.T.Fanatic]

It is rare for us to have a doe without a fawn. Most have 2 and there is usually one with three fawns. Most of the neighbors shoot some does (we do as well) I would like to see a few more deer on the landscape but i'd also rather have a few less than I would like that the other way around.