Doe Factories and Social Distancing

[neonomad]

While back the farmer who farms our tillable told me that in the early 2000s he and his son took something like 30 deer out of our fields on nuisance permits, between us and the neighbors let’s call it 200 acres and 60 tillable. My dad had never told me about this!… anywhoo farmer said in the years following that our place is where he saw the biggest bucks from the tractor.

Fast forward 20 years and I’m about 6 years into decent quality food plots, and the woods were selective harvested 3 years ago, I’d say the place is as good as it’s ever been. Through 2022 we’ve always had a decent buck around, sometimes four. But man this year does not look good. I’d say our numbers are higher than ever, but quality racks are at a low. A great buck from the past few years is around but past his prime. We do harvest does, but maybe not enough. Short story long have you seen great habitat lead to a property with too much social pressure, annoying the older bucks, and is there something to be said for keeping the deer herd numbers on the low side? Of course this could just be a bad luck of the draw year, but I’m trying to decipher if I’m just seeing one bad data point, or more like a trend…

 

[SwampCat]

No. Just an off year or two. We had two good bucks last year - 150” which is extremely rare for this country. No decent bucks this year. In fact, both the big bucks hung out in the same area. Not even a 2 yr old took their place.

 

[Bill]

I wouldn't make any rash decisions. Give that a year or three. Our best season was the one where we had no "shooters" hanging around all summer.

 

[Hoytvectrix]

Maybe if you have too many mouths to feed that is what is affecting the quality of bucks and their antler development.

I can't verify that's what it is on our home farm, but that is my guess. We had three shooter bucks make it through last year and none of them put on any significant mass or inches. It's probably also largely due to a bit of the drought in the area. Regardless, we have way too many deer.

If you go back and watch Bill Winke's Old Midwest whitetail videos, he clearly had a bunch of does and deer in general all using the same plots/property. He acknowledged at one point that he let the deer numbers get too high, and eventually started managing doe numbers. I think now he is trying to keep a balanced sex ratio on his new farm while also trying to ramp up the deer numbers. I think my point is is that you can make an argument one way or another.

 

[Brian662]

I have two properties in different states with a lot of does, the focus is always on fall food/cover but the local deer density is just high. Both properties see an increase in mature buck sightings (cameras) starting around Oct 15 or so. This is the time of year where I start to get nervous because such and such buck from last year hasn't showed up yet, but I have to keep reminding myself he showed up for the first time last year on Oct 18 (for example) and was daylight active by Oct 24.

All that being said, I think 95% of property managers could harvest more does and it would improve their property in a meaningful way.

 

[neonomad]

Thanks all, I don’t believe we have a too many mouths to feed issue, right now it’s simply just one deer four years old or older, an age class thing. But yes the season is young, and this is just one year… and it’s certainly easier to wait and see than trying to get some nuisance permits.

It just always stuck with me the hot streak for bucks that followed that farmers eradication of much of the herd. So many variables. But it could also be true that there are old bucks who don’t mind social pressure, those that do, so you roll the dice each year with those personalities. The good news is we’re the only game in town for late season food unless ag is standing somewhere, even grumpy bucks should show up for that.

 

[neonomad]

I have two properties in different states with a lot of does, the focus is always on fall food/cover but the local deer density is just high. Both properties see an increase in mature buck sightings (cameras) starting around Oct 15 or so. This is the time of year where I start to get nervous because such and such buck from last year hasn't showed up yet, but I have to keep reminding myself he showed up for the first time last year on Oct 18 (for example) and was daylight active by Oct 24.

All that being said, I think 95% of property managers could harvest more does and it would improve their property in a meaningful way.

Interesting and encouraging, and I do agree all things considered many properties mine included need more doe harvest. Who knows might even make lock down during the rut a little less noticeable.

 

[BenAllgood]

If there are "ice cream" plants in your area that should be there, but aren't, then you could have too many deer. In my area, one of those plants is strawberry bush. Looking at browse pressure on your plants naturally occurring on your property is a great way to determine if your deer density is too high. Plot pressure can be misleading sometimes depending on size, proximity to cover and other available forage in the area. But, you should have natural browse and forage available that is highly desirable but not missing or on the verge of being missing from your property. The plants on your property will tell you if you have too many deer. If you have an over abundance of does and the bucks aren't there, then that probably indicates bucks are being killed at a higher rate in the area.

 

[Ben.MN/WI]

I'm guessing your farmer is just trying his best to get you to agree to ag tag doe killing so he can reduce deer damage on his crops. In Wisconsin there is an ag damage program that gives farmers a financial incentive to sign up for that crap. They get free money for wildlife damage, but one requirement is either ag tags and/or hunting access. The farmer renting my tillable acres would try to get me to sign up for that stupid program so he would get free money even though wildlife damage was minimal (low deer numbers in my specific area).

 

[Hoytvectrix]

I've noticed several habitat folks on YouTube have been addressing the concept of doe factories lately, almost all have been coming out and saying what many here have been - that it's a made up term by a single guy that isn't based on any data.

 

[b116757]

Keep in mind the row crop guy wants every single deer dead on your property so they aren’t taking away from his profits so take his assessment of deer quality post crop damage tag harvest with that in mind his goals and yours do not coincide.

 

[neonomad]

Naw, this farmer mentioned it years ago and hasnt mentioned it since. He’s a good dude. If he did mention it I’d probably agree with him, I can see the browse his beans are taking.

 

[gjs4]

The cash cropper at my folks actually tried to get deer management assistance permits on his own but neglected to know the biologist is my buddy and said it was something the land owner had to do. He has been covert with those efforts since BUT is there driving the fields (220ac on 360) a few times every week and fairly sure part of his frequent sprayings is milangromite. Stating the latter as adjacent fields from other farmers may have all of the deer and ours very few., though i have never noted an odor from any of his sprayings.

What i will say, and going back to the doe factory is when the adjacent hunting pressure goes nuts...they all show up on ours (pre or post harvest). Doe factories are mentioned in a resident sense, but rarely in a roving/transient one. I have seen 50-75 deer in a field, with less than 10 (maybe even 5) antlered. Our neighbors will all shoot 2yo bucks, some 1yo... and maybe take a easy doe or two a year. Social pressure and distancing of bucks (esp older) is a thing. Does are opportunists, and lazy in most instances, and unlike bucks will withstand social pressure if the food sources support it. Just my user results though.

NYs hunting culture is why our herd/age structure dynamics are what they are.

 

[neonomad]

I used the term doe factory to trigger some responses, haha, whether it’s real
or not it does pretty quickly describe the possible issue. Our place is as much a buck factory as a doe factory, there’s a bunch of both sexes, I’d just like the production line set up for the occasional rack to get excited about. Time will tell.

 

[drycreek]

There is no ag in East Texas, where I live, unless you count planted pines or coastal bermuda fields. Some areas have lots of deer, some don’t, and I think it a matter of available food plus predators. We have way too many coyotes and bobcats. I rarely see twins both make it to the juvenile stage and some does don’t have any fawns at all that I can see, although I’m sure they birthed them. Hide prices are in the toilet, so nobody traps anymore. Lots of planted pines, which are deserts as far as any browse. Hay meadows do provide some forbs, but not much. Acorn crops are either very good, which is kinda tough for the hunter, or bad, which is tough on the deer. I feed free choice protein from January to about September and throw corn from September until spring green up. I grow food plots both at home and on my lease. I think too many does, which is hard to accomplish here, might be a detriment insofar as getting a buck in front of you is concerned. Less does might cause more buck movement as they are constantly searching for a doe in heat. I can’t prove that, but it makes sense to me. My theory is, that no matter how good a hunter you are, luck plays a big part in whether you get that buck in front of you. You can hunt the best spot, the best sign, with the best strategy, but when he gets out of his bed, if he turns right, when you are left, then you are SOL for that hunt. I killed my best bow buck with everything wrong, so there’s that.