How Big is Your Average Mature Deer - B&C?

Body looks young to me, 1-2
I guess I'm more fortunate than I realized after reading these posts. Have around 20 cams on an 800 acre lease, so we get to know our resident herd decently. Of course alot of my area's 2yr old bucks avg around 100", and if they make it to 3, I'd say it averages up to prob 120. But, it's not uncommon to see a known 3yr old buck hit the 140's.
Once they hit the 3+ age, seems like we have 2 lines of buck genetics on our place. About 2/3 have the high and tall, perfectly symetrical racks, with most having a left side antler slightly bigger than the right. Best scoring I've seen from this group is 150-160, usually not more than 10pt, spread of 15-19 inches. The other 1/3 not nearly as tall, but really wide, with a lot of non-typical points, maybe 12-16, spreads exceeding 20". They also can go to the 150-160 range. The best bucks in our immediate area seem to be a crossbreed based on what the rack looks like, and have seen a couple in the last 5 years that went 180+. I'm not sure how much genetics influence the recipe, but my eyeballs tell me consistently there are 2 strains running around in my area.
We dont have much in the way of mass. We do get a few deer over 20” wide - but width doesnt add much to score. Tine length and tine number is what gives our deer inches. Our most common mature buck is a seven or eight pt. Eye guards are commonly missing.

A 140” deer, or larger, is a true anomaly here. I think they are a freak of nature. We may go several years without getting a picture of one. I think it is a combination of every perfect case scenario manifesting into one animal - the best buck and doe genetics, the perfect momma that only has one fawn, favorable climatic conditions, and increased wariness to escape hunters through at least four seasons
 
Our g&f extolled the virtues of a balanced herd. Shoot your does down to balance the herd. We bought in. Turns out balancing the herd can mean different things in different areas. We almost ran out of deer and we were part of the problem. We have an average annual fawn recruitment of .5 fawns per doe. A 1:1 buck:doe ratio does not work in my area. I have found I need about 2.5 does per buck to maintain - or slightly grow the herd and provide enough deer for the neighbors.

We found out the hard way - it is a WHOLE lot easier to shoot them down than grow them back. Took about two years going down and seven years coming back. I am dang protective of my does now.
Very good observation thanks for sharing that one.
 
Really interesting. Probably most of us consider texas a good big buck state. Even their top areas produce relatively “average” deer. And probably a higher percentage of their bucks are on protein feed than anywhere else in the country. Thanks for posting.
 
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I would like to try out a 1:1 buck:doe ratio some time....just to see what it looks like 😄

We have always tried to tag 2 does for every buck we tag. While that may work in low to moderate deer density areas, it just may not be enough in a high deer density. There have been times when we had to harvest more.

Not enough food....or too many deer?
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When the deer keep 3 1/2 acres of beans mowed down, you probably have too many deer...
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If you have tp erect an E-Fence you probably have too many deer...
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When you see a dozen deer in only a small portion of a food plot and wonder just how many deer are in the rest of the food plot, you probably have too many deer.
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There really isn't a one size fits all when it comes to deer management. Each parcel really needs to be evaluated using real time data to determine what your doe harvest should be. As I mentioned earlier, I grew up in a camp where virtually no does were ever killed but every buck was targeted no matter the age. Fortunately, I moved on from that camp and learned that doe numbers have to be managed to maintain a healthy herd and healthy habitat.
 
I would like to try out a 1:1 buck:doe ratio some time....just to see what it looks like 😄

We have always tried to tag 2 does for every buck we tag. While that may work in low to moderate deer density areas, it just may not be enough in a high deer density. There have been times when we had to harvest more.

Not enough food....or too many deer?
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When the deer keep 3 1/2 acres of beans mowed down, you probably have too many deer...
View attachment 55479

If you have tp erect an E-Fence you probably have too many deer...
View attachment 55480

When you see a dozen deer in only a small portion of a food plot and wonder just how many deer are in the rest of the food plot, you probably have too many deer.
View attachment 55488

There really isn't a one size fits all when it comes to deer management. Each parcel really needs to be evaluated using real time data to determine what your doe harvest should be. As I mentioned earlier, I grew up in a camp where virtually no does were ever killed but every buck was targeted no matter the age. Fortunately, I moved on from that camp and learned that doe numbers have to be managed to maintain a healthy herd and healthy habitat.
I agree 100%. Every property is different. I have a high deer density. I cant grow soybeans because they will eat them to the ground - and I am not going to efence. But, with my low fawn recruitment numbers, I have to maintain a fairly high doe population to produce enough fawns to cover all annual mortality.

According to annual camera surveys, I will have about 60 deer using my 300 acres - a deer per five acres - but realize all those deer do not stay only on my ground. But, also realize, I have one neighbor who owns 15 acres who takes 5 deer per year. I have 15 adjacent landowners.

It always amazes me when private wildlife consultants provide management plans off aerial photos - or even onsite visits - but they dont gather ACCURATE data on deer density, fawn recruitment, predator numbers, hunter activity, buck:doe ratios, etc - and other pertinent data outside habitat conditions.
 
Really interesting. Probably most of us consider texas a good big buck state. Even their top areas produce relatively “average” deer. And probably a higher percentage of their bucks are on protein feed than anywhere else in the country. Thanks for posting.
I’m surprised they could find enough free range deer in that state to run a comparison…but yeah Texas is a big buck state mostly cause of genetic manipulation, artificial feed and closed loop environment. Studies like this show how unnatural that world is you see on tv and the internet
 
I agree 100%. Every property is different. I have a high deer density. I cant grow soybeans because they will eat them to the ground - and I am not going to efence. But, with my low fawn recruitment numbers, I have to maintain a fairly high doe population to produce enough fawns to cover all annual mortality.

According to annual camera surveys, I will have about 60 deer using my 300 acres - a deer per five acres - but realize all those deer do not stay only on my ground. But, also realize, I have one neighbor who owns 15 acres who takes 5 deer per year. I have 15 adjacent landowners.

It always amazes me when private wildlife consultants provide management plans off aerial photos - or even onsite visits - but they dont gather ACCURATE data on deer density, fawn recruitment, predator numbers, hunter activity, buck:doe ratios, etc - and other pertinent data outside habitat conditions.
Our fawn recruitment is similar to yours - 0.5 fawns per doe on average. We do have an abundance of predators: wolves, coyotes, bears, bobcats, and most recently, a trail cam photo of a cougar about a mile away from my property, so fawns can and do take a beating sometimes.

Fortunately, I only have 5 neighboring landowners. I have a long and narrow 160 acres (1/4 mile wide by 1 mile long) so I have 2 1/2 miles of border. One neighboring landowner has 80 acres and the others all have from 300+ to 700+. Still it is hard to get a good buck through another year with all of them hunting fairly aggressively. The other influencing factor at my place is the farm on the north end that shoots deer all summer long on crop damage permits. There are always far fewer deer on that end of my property than on the far south end. I have to take that into consideration when doing our doe management.

The other sometimes huge factor here is severe winter weather. We have had back to back to back brutal winters where we have lost a lot of deer - not necessarily on my property because we were supplemental feeding the last time we had that issue, but a lot of deer migrated onto my property to survive and we knew if we beat up on the available does, we would be severely impacting other landowners' deer herds when the survivors migrated back to their normal range.
 
Average " mature? " 3 yr old. First. I don't really consider a 3 yr old mature nor representative of full potential. The first big jump generally comes at 4. Nonetheless on my La. farm a 3 yr old 110-130. In Mexico 120-140. At 4 the range can change swag increase 10-20% I say all that without a lot of thought.
 
Really interesting. Probably most of us consider texas a good big buck state. Even their top areas produce relatively “average” deer. And probably a higher percentage of their bucks are on protein feed than anywhere else in the country. Thanks for posting.
Yep. This was the basis for the comments I remember MSU guys talking about… That South Texas has big deer because of age and management. Not genetics.
 
Just to throw this into the equation of quality of average bucks in different areas, here's some slides from data showing what can happen to fawn recruitment and herd quality on poor, average, and superior habitat types when populations keep increasing:

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Just to throw this into the equation of quality of average bucks in different areas, here's some slides from data showing what can happen to fawn recruitment and herd quality on poor, average, and superior habitat types when populations keep increasing:

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Those graphs are double edge swords. Are you better off having a few deer - with more average potential, or more deer with less average potential, but maybe with greater potential of one of the more numerous bucks being one of the freaks that needs to happen, anyway.

In an average year, I might have three mature deer - 4 yrs or older on my place - with a camera survey deer density of one deer per five acres. “Normal” population here is considered a deer per 30 acres. Minimum population might be a deer per forty acres - which would theoretically equate to only 7 or 8 deer using my ground instead of 60.

Does minimum deer numbers, at better potential, offer better or lesser chance at a quality buck, than higher deer numbers with supposedly less upside potential. Not talking over populated browse line kind of thing.
 
I’m gonna go on record to say that chart on Texas deer Is a little misleading. First, I don’t know how the numbers were compiled since we have no reporting obligations to the TPWD. Second, the areas are very broad and the deer are very diverse within those areas. For instance, the area I’m most familiar with is the Piney Woods. That takes up most of East Texas, I would be in the northern end of that. In what we call Deep East Texas the main source of income for many, many people is pine timber. You either grow it or are involved in the end product in some way. There are literally thousands of acres owned by timber companies and most are leased to hunters. I hunted one such place for about four years that was owned by an individual who bought it from International Paper when they sold all their land. It is 16,000 acres. The harvest goal there was a five year old buck or older. The guy that leased 5,000 acres of it is a friend of mine, and a former customer. I hunted by invitation but I did a lot of mowing every year because I don’t like to “free ride”. I told all that to say that there were lots, and I mean lots, of 130 to 140 inch bucks on that lease. There were some that size and bigger killed every year. I imagine in that four year period I let a half dozen 130” bucks walk. I also let two bigger ones get away from me because they didn’t offer a clean shot. I wasn’t there to shoot a 130” deer, and I didn’t hunt very much as it was a pretty good drive for me I had two more places to hunt of my own as well. Several times I had the thought, upon seeing a “nice” buck, “Buddy, if you were on my place you’d be in trouble”. 😁 I’m basically a meat hunter, but I don’t kill anything less than 3.5, that’s about as far as I go toward QDM, that and I don’t shoot many does, about one every other year on my place, and none on my lease. To be honest, the chart probably is pretty well right about the area I live in, but there aren’t very many places here that will go over a couple hundred acres, and plenty smaller than that. That doesn’t bode well for big, mature bucks.


I also had a lease for 18 years in the Post Oak Savannah, and on our lease the chart is pretty close, but just 15/20 miles to the S of us there were much better bucks to be had. Every year the local grocery store had a big buck contest and it was always won by someone who hunted in Palo Pinto County, which was just S of us in Runnels County.


In South Texas, there are many large ranches, some high fenced, but many low fenced also. Almost every place is leased and almost everyone feeds protein year round. Many leases have a 6 to 7 year old minimum on bucks. There are some really big bucks produced on those low fenced properties. I just don’t think you can generalize without taking everything into consideration, ie: property size, supplemental feeding, management, etc.
 
I think people in my area have very pie in the sky thoughts about what 3.5 years olds should be. They will send 140’s and say I think he’s three. And I say I think I touch the water when I stand up and pee…
I think our average 3.5 is 115-125.

I really hope we get to meet one day. You’re the best and spot on.


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Let me start that I have no experience with this. This is in fact the only deer I've ever got to watch grow up. I have no idea if it's typical or not for my area. I first saw this buck when I'm assuming he was 2 1/2. He then returned last year and was noticeably bigger. He made it through the season and low and behold I just got a pic of him. But he doesn't look much bigger than last year. At least antlerwise. His body size looks much bigger. I would've expected a big jump as we had a very mild winter and are surrounded with at a minimum hay fields for him to eat.

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Hoping to get a crack at him but he's been very elusive and tends to skirt my property. But anyway the point was I was expecting a big jump from 3 to 4. Maybe 5 is the magic number. I doubt he makes it to there but he's done a good job so far. I got a bunch of pics when he was 2 but from then on a couple velvet pics and none til the season is over. He's got a good hole to hide in somewhere.
 
I’d bet the farm he’s 2 1/2. This is an example of a better than average 2 1/2 that will more than likely be a mid 150’s next year if he makes it.
 

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There really isn't a one size fits all when it comes to deer management. Each parcel really needs to be evaluated using real time data to determine what your doe harvest should be. As I mentioned earlier, I grew up in a camp where virtually no does were ever killed but every buck was targeted no matter the age. Fortunately, I moved on from that camp and learned that doe numbers have to be managed to maintain a healthy herd and healthy habitat.
Exactly. Every area / region is different. My hunting area shot ourselves down to bare bones numbers, so it was either cool down trying to fill every possible tag - or have no / extremely few deer. Thankfully, the local camps, including ours, backed off. It's better again.
 
Here in NE PA we have lots of big woods and almost no ag. I sent in one of my last three deer and got it aged at 4.5. One other I figured was 3.5 and the other another 4.5. Both 4.5 went right around 110", the 3.5 I didn't measure but would put closer to 95".

I've found sheds as big around as a can of keystone but the tines were 3" and the shed would fit on a large dinner plate. Sometimes I think people work backwards on these concepts. Ex: I'll only shoot a 130, and in my area they don't crack that until 4.5, so an average 3.5 is 115-120, but really a 130 is rare most places so they are upping an average 3.5.
 
No question about the high grading of young bucks BenAllgood. One of my neighbors will shoot every legal deer he sees and a yearling 6 or 7 point is just fine for him. Of course, those are especially the kinds of yearling bucks that we want to move up into the next age class.

I don't believe any of our neighbors will pass up a 2 year old 8 point. We are probably the only camp that is doing that. I have even passed a few 3 year olds with hopes that they might make it through until the next year. I do know of one that did make it and one of our guests tagged it the following year as a 4 year old.

4 year olds are more common now than they were 20 years ago but 5 year olds are almost unheard of. As I mentioned, we have only killed one 5 year old in the 29 years that we have owned the property.....and he didn't grow any bigger antlers as a 5 year old than he did when he was 4 years old - a little over 100 inches.

We also have very long and sometimes very brutal winters where in some bad years we may lose upwards of 200,000 deer over winter (this is in the U.P. of Michigan - not lower Michigan).

I think the difference in this whole discussion is more semantic than directly relevant… as far as the buck quality manipulation is conversation is concerned, the Comanche Ranch study in texas definitively showed that even intensive culling of “inferior” genetics (and by intensive, I mean 25,000+ acres with helicopters doing over 7,000 deer captures, and tens of thousands of dollars a year) had little impact on the actual genetic potential of future bucks.

That doesn’t, however, mean that high-grading doesn’t have a direct impact on what bucks are alive on the landscape to be hunted. High grading removes the nicer bucks from the herd physically, but does absolutely nothing long-term to reduce their potential to exist genetically.

The largest impact on antler size in that study happened across all 3 test pastures… and it was rain.
A 15 inch increase, on average, among all bucks measured for the year is a MASSIVE increase. Further confirmation to me that nutrition quality and availability is EVERYTHING for the bucks that ARE on the landscape.




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I think the difference in this whole discussion is more semantic than directly relevant… as far as the buck quality manipulation is conversation is concerned, the Comanche Ranch study in texas definitively showed that even intensive culling of “inferior” genetics (and by intensive, I mean 25,000+ acres with helicopters doing over 7,000 deer captures, and tens of thousands of dollars a year) had little impact on the actual genetic potential of future bucks.

That doesn’t, however, mean that high-grading doesn’t have a direct impact on what bucks are alive on the landscape to be hunted. High grading removes the nicer bucks from the herd physically, but does absolutely nothing long-term to reduce their potential to exist genetically.

The largest impact on antler size in that study happened across all 3 test pastures… and it was rain.
A 15 inch increase, on average, among all bucks measured for the year is a MASSIVE increase. Further confirmation to me that nutrition quality and availability is EVERYTHING for the bucks that ARE on the landscape.




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Agree Ikeman. As far as we are concerned, it is virtually impossible to influence Genetics in a free ranging deer herd. While we are able to get some bucks beyond the yearling Age Class with Mandatory Antler Point Restrictions, growing bucks to 6+ years of age, or even 4+ years of age in many of our areas is a pipe dream as well. That leaves Nutrition as the one element that we can actually have some influence over. And while we can do our best to provide our deer the best groceries we can, Mother Nature does control the trump card. Drought conditions in summer and brutal winter weather can certainly impact that as well.
 
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