Is property management on smaller properties

[BenAllgood]

I don't think that will be the case. It will clearly change the character and, perhaps, the types of hunting. Many game animals, especially deer, are very adaptable. I grew up in PA were we hunted big tracks of mostly timber on state forest land and state game lands. There were so many hunters you were allowed to shoot one deer a year, and it was shameful to shot a doe. We had a short gun season, and with so many hunters, hunting escape routes was the best option. I never had a shot opportunity during bow season.

I though my hunting days were over when I was transferred to DC. No apparent places to hunt within hours it seemed. Then I found some military bases that had controlled hunting. The managed for wildlife and controlled the number of hunters per acre. I soon found that deer abounded in the suburbs but there was no place to hunt them. Stream valley parks were off limits and there were very few if any tracks larger than 10 acres and they had houses on them. Lots of deer/auto accidents. Deer were eating landscaping in folks back yards. I ended up being one of the founders of Suburban Whitetail Management of Northern Virginia. As that organization too off we were killing hundreds of deer each year in the suburbs on tracts as small as 5 acres.

This is just one example, but, as I see it, the forms of hunting will change as ownership of land changes. Urban sprawl clearly makes it hard to find a large contiguous tract of land. When I was growing up in PA, you just knocked on a farmers door and asked for permission to hunt. I had better than a 50% success rate. Those days are dwindling if not gone. Many farms are owned by industry and are farmed edge to edge. As I see it, man will always need to coexist with wildlife. There comes a point where large predators come into conflict with man. Man wins. As those large predators are reduced in the eco system, someone has to take their role in controlling prey species. That is hunters. Where we hunt, how we hunt, and even why we hunt, may change but hunting will always be needed.

One thing I learned with suburban whitetail management is that non-hunters can be influenced by the anti-hunting crowd quite a bit. Bambi stories with large eyes and arguments from the anti-hunters have influence...UNTIL... reality hits them in the pocketbook. Replacing landscaping annually, hitting deer with a car, little Billy getting Lyme disease, and so can turn non-hunters into allies pretty quickly as long as they see us as a responsible group in society.

Thanks,

Jack

That may well be the case in your area and others, but where I am, the wildlife habitat is shrinking at an alarming pace. There aren't any paths of cover leading through these suburbs. It is subdivision on top of subdivision, strip mall on top of strip mall. There's no topography to limit development. Swamps are drained and retention ponds put in. And, these areas are no longer connected by cover. The creeks and bayous are dredged and straightened for drainage and kept clean for easier maintenance. And, it's just not deer losing out. There are many more plant and animals that are losing their place. We hit 8 billion people this past November. There were around 2.5 billion in 1950.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

So a few people will kill deer by the kids swingset or on their 5 acre ranchettes but by and large there will be fewer deer and much fewer opportunities for people to hunt.

Not all species are adaptable like whitetails either. In the mountain west we're building on all of the critical wintering ground and migration corridors. The elk population in parts of CO for example is being wrecked just by stress from human recreation on the landscape (hiking, biking, skiing, camping, etc) without even taking the loss of wintering habitat into account.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

Probably need to source check this mammals one. Seems impossible that there would be nearly as much weight in horses as all land mammals combined. [Edit: did rough number crunching.. Deer and elk combined in the US make up about half of the weight of horses in the US, and i'm not sure their even county feral horses in that count. Kind of sad that we'd use twice as much feed for horses as wild ungulates]

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

So a few people will kill deer by the kids swingset or on their 5 acre ranchettes but by and large there will be fewer deer and much fewer opportunities for people to hunt.

Not all species are adaptable like whitetails either. In the mountain west we're building on all of the critical wintering ground and migration corridors. The elk population in parts of CO for example is being wrecked just by stress from human recreation on the landscape (hiking, biking, skiing, camping, etc) without even taking the loss of wintering habitat into account.

There was a good meateater podcast a couple years ago with the head of the Colorado DOW called loving our resources to death or something like that. Hit on the impacts we are having in our public lands. Said some herds have horrible recruitment rates because their calving grounds are constantly being disturbed by people. When I lived out in Colorado it was wild to see how much impact we have in wild areas. There’s a big fight in steamboat right now where they want to expand the trail system north of town north which would have a huge impact on elk, deer and moose Of course the limp wristed forest service is rolling over despite the efforts and science of some organizations like Keep Routt Wild and others. Not to mention all the development going on in every valley out west. Bozeman is all but ruined now. Sad

 

[yoderjac]

That may well be the case in your area and others, but where I am, the wildlife habitat is shrinking at an alarming pace. There aren't any paths of cover leading through these suburbs. It is subdivision on top of subdivision, strip mall on top of strip mall. There's no topography to limit development. Swamps are drained and retention ponds put in. And, these areas are no longer connected by cover. The creeks and bayous are dredged and straightened for drainage and kept clean for easier maintenance. And, it's just not deer losing out. There are many more plant and animals that are losing their place. We hit 8 billion people this past November. There were around 2.5 billion in 1950.

I think general loss of habitat has been an on-going problem. I see it as more of wildlife issue than a specific hunting issue.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

I think general loss of habitat has been an on-going problem. I see it as more of wildlife issue than a specific hunting issue.

You do? So people losing access to land by the hour isn’t a hunter issue?

 

[BenAllgood]

I think general loss of habitat has been an on-going problem. I see it as more of wildlife issue than a specific hunting issue.

The loss of wildlife habitat directly impacts hunting. I can't put up a stand in the middle of the new Dollar General and expect to kill a deer.

 

[yoderjac]

You do? So people losing access to land by the hour isn’t a hunter issue?

I did not say it is not an issue, I said it is not the end of hunting. Some of it is coming from fratricidal. The commercialization of the hunting industry has been a factor. Much more leasing and private land access being lost to the general hunting public than when I was a kid. I saw the writing on the wall with general public access to land and is why I first started looking to buy hunting land. Multiply that by many hunters and access becomes tighe.

The loss of wildlife habitat directly impacts hunting. I can't put up a stand in the middle of the new Dollar General and expect to kill a deer.

Of course, things that impact wildlife impact hunting. I'm just saying it is not the end. Not every place is losing habitat. You are right that some areas are more impacted than others.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Wind Gypsy]

Access and opportunity has changed quite a bit in my lifetime and i'm just 37. I'd guess there will be opportunity for me until i'm too old to do it anymore but it will be much more expensive or much lower quality experiences. My kid's lifetime and their kids lifetime? Forget about it. We're just a blip in time, the future is not bright for wildlife and wild places.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

I did not say it is not an issue, I said it is not the end of hunting. Some of it is coming from fratricidal. The commercialization of the hunting industry has been a factor. Much more leasing and private land access being lost to the general hunting public than when I was a kid. I saw the writing on the wall with general public access to land and is why I first started looking to buy hunting land. Multiply that by many hunters and access becomes tighe.



Of course, things that impact wildlife impact hunting. I'm just saying it is not the end. Not every place is losing habitat. You are right that some areas are more impacted than others.

Thanks,

Jack

Access will kill hunting before some purpled hair loser carrying a picket signs.

 

[Tree Spud]

I see subsidized farming as a big threat to the loss of habitat. Farm land that use to have shrub & wooded fence rows, wood blocks, marshes, etc. are all being stripped to bare farmland with no cover and the Govt subsidizes this with supporting initiatives like ethanol production.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

I see subsidized farming as a big threat to the loss of habitat. Farm land that use to have shrub & wooded fence rows, wood blocks, marshes, etc. are all being stripped to bare farmland with no cover and the Govt subsidizes this with supporting initiatives like ethanol production.

Great point. And farming efficiencies wiping out fields at harvest.

 

[BenAllgood]

Of course, things that impact wildlife impact hunting. I'm just saying it is not the end. Not every place is losing habitat. You are right that some areas are more impacted than others.

Thanks,

Jack

At a certain scale, yes every place is losing habitat for wildlife, particularly certain species. And, some of those species are not hunted, but they may support hunted species in some fashion. We can't think of it as "we can build here because the wildlife have that over there" mentality much longer. We'll start building in the oceans and start displacing those species.

See, I didn't want to sound like some eco nut, but here we are. And, I'm not some green peace, tie myself to a tree type person. I don't have the answers.

 

[Fair oak]

Man this is depressing! I’m 37 and Have lived in far northern WI my entire life. It’s changed more in the last 2 years than the previous 35. Lots of money pouring in from Chicago, Milwaukee, Minneapolis. It’s always been a tourist area but the rate that it’s changing now is ridiculous. Never did I imagine we’d need a huge storage unit on every sq. mile of land up here to house all the obnoxious toys and yet it’s happening. Combine this with the fact that so many people these days will damn near sell their soul for a little more than a dollar and land gets chopped up as small as possible and sold without so much as a thought. I don’t have any answers either but damn it’s depressing.

Edited to add- I’m not some tree hugging eco-freak either. My chainsaws are my favorite and probably my most used tools. It’s just the rate at which things are changing that concerns me most.

 

[SwampCat]

I think a lot of people - for sure on this forum - have deer ingrained in their brains. Where I live, deer are doing fine. We are at our low for the last 25 years for quail, turkey, doves, rabbits, and the worst duck hunting in my 67 years. What is holding its own or increasing in my state? Bear, alligators, coons, coyotes, and bobcats. This is fairly true all across the south. These predator species, along with deer - are much more adept at living around people. If you only like to deer and bear hunt, you are in good shape. If you like to quail, rabbit, and turkey hunt - you are going to have a lot of slow days.

 

[yoderjac]

Access will kill hunting before some purpled hair loser carrying a picket signs.

I agree. But just a big of threat is the radicalization of some in the hunting community turning the stomachs of the currently non-objecting general non-hunting public..

 

[yoderjac]

At a certain scale, yes every place is losing habitat for wildlife, particularly certain species. And, some of those species are not hunted, but they may support hunted species in some fashion. We can't think of it as "we can build here because the wildlife have that over there" mentality much longer. We'll start building in the oceans and start displacing those species.

See, I didn't want to sound like some eco nut, but here we are. And, I'm not some green peace, tie myself to a tree type person. I don't have the answers.

You don't come off that way. The eco-system is very integrated. Wildlife populations go up and down over time, but when declines become generalized as they seem to be, the world has larger problems as a result than the future of hunting. Wildlife is our canary in our coal mine.

 

[Brian662]

Some funny stuff going on in ND about bait right now.. Hunters are so angry about the possibility of losing baiting there are calls to disband the G&F. Sad state of affairs.

That's not too surprising to me, every hunting "show" that involves ND hunting that I've seen (THP excluded) is always late season over bait. The preferred bait out there appears to be alfalfa bails or grass of some sort, very similar to Saskatchewan.

 

[omicron1792]

I agree. But just a big of threat is the radicalization of some in the hunting community turning the stomachs of the currently non-objecting general non-hunting public..

That’s a wildlife biologist trope. I think that’s number 9896 on the list of things affecting hunting.

 

[Booner21]

Well it’s ky, people don’t go out in the woods without corn so that was both properties. But yeah I have the outfitter behind me at the new place. I still don’t think you can grow high end deer on small properties without some things going for you, like good neighbors or an area with a lot of cover…and luck. I had a couple decent deer using my place religiously from July/august to now but obviously I know they are using my neighbors places too and they would have shot everyone of them, twice but through luck they just didn’t walk by during the season while they were hunting.
I don’t know the ultimate answer. Keep moving till you find the best neighborhood? Improve your property to make it the best around and hope? Keep saving and flipping till you can buy 600 plus acres?

Grow or killl? I am in the Midwest so a bit different but routinely kill good deer from small properties. The largest property I have to hunt is 60 acres of timber. Couple sides have neighbors with quite a bit of pressure. Some of my best spots are nothing more than brushy draws or fencerows.


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