How Big is Your Average Mature Deer - B&C?

[Brian662]

There is an area not too far from me in the same county where a friend of mine hunts, they enacted APR there several years back. It was the start that him and his neighbors needed to get a coop going and while I don't think they share much Intel, they've all agreed to let young deer grow. The results, according to my friend, have been shocking. The inches of the "average" deer jumped 20-30" and there are 140 class bucks in every woodlot now. A 200" was taken 4 or 5 years ago as well.
I should also add that the neighborhood has consolidated smaller properties that came up for sale and they got bought out by the larger tract owners, which certainly doesn't hurt.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

There is an area not too far from me in the same county where a friend of mine hunts, they enacted APR there several years back. It was the start that him and his neighbors needed to get a coop going and while I don't think they share much Intel, they've all agreed to let young deer grow. The results, according to my friend, have been shocking. The inches of the "average" deer jumped 20-30" and there are 140 class bucks in every woodlot now. A 200" was taken 4 or 5 years ago as well.
I should also add that the neighborhood has consolidated smaller properties that came up for sale and they got bought out by the larger tract owners, which certainly doesn't hurt.

Nice that they are going in the opposite direction of many areas (parcels getting divided).

 

[PatinPA]

There is an area not too far from me in the same county where a friend of mine hunts, they enacted APR there several years back. It was the start that him and his neighbors needed to get a coop going and while I don't think they share much Intel, they've all agreed to let young deer grow. The results, according to my friend, have been shocking. The inches of the "average" deer jumped 20-30" and there are 140 class bucks in every woodlot now. A 200" was taken 4 or 5 years ago as well.
I should also add that the neighborhood has consolidated smaller properties that came up for sale and they got bought out by the larger tract owners, which certainly doesn't hurt.

100%. Antler restrictions may high grade bucks but it at least allows bucks to get some age. PA is a prime example. Growing up we shot the first buck that walked up no matter what it was. Then they enacted 3 points per side and it made a huge impact. A "big" buck back then scored 100. And it was rare to see a 2 year old. Now 120-140's are not unusual and there was a 190's killed around my parents place a little while ago.

 

[SWIFFY]

Average 3 yr old is 130” in my area in MN. Maybe 100” on a real dud, maybe 150+ on one with incredible genes. But 130-140 is common.

 

[BenAllgood]

Here's another graph that tells a pretty good tale about land use vs antler size. In the study, they collected data from 203 different deer populations over a 4 year period for 2YO bucks. They examined the habitat types. They found a correlation between vegetation available at ground level and antler sizes. In areas with more vegetation available at ground level, the antler sizes increased. In heavily forested areas, antler sizes decreased.

 

[Hoytvectrix]

The studies on genetics in culling seem fairly robust. But something I have yet to see mentioned though is that culling has been happening for millions of years already. Natural selection has been allowing bucks with incrementally more antler size and shape to pass on their genes. So culling is happening, but on an incredibly long time scale and not really something we can observe. I don't know how this fits into the current discussion, but it's something I find myself thinking about quite a bit when hunting or reading about whitetail research.

 

[Brian662]

The studies on genetics in culling seem fairly robust. But something I have yet to see mentioned though is that culling has been happening for millions of years already. Natural selection has been allowing bucks with incrementally more antler size and shape to pass on their genes. So culling is happening, but on an incredibly long time scale and not really something we can observe. I don't know how this fits into the current discussion, but it's something I find myself thinking about quite a bit when hunting or reading about whitetail research.

Piggybacking off of this, it has been proven in captive herds that a doe will select a buck with superior antler characteristics to mate with over his peers. Even though does in nearly every scenario get bred by young (sometimes inferior) bucks, when given the option, does will select the big boy on the block.

 

[SwampCat]

100%. Antler restrictions may high grade bucks but it at least allows bucks to get some age. PA is a prime example. Growing up we shot the first buck that walked up no matter what it was. Then they enacted 3 points per side and it made a huge impact. A "big" buck back then scored 100. And it was rare to see a 2 year old. Now 120-140's are not unusual and there was a 190's killed around my parents place a little while ago.

This is exactly what we saw after APR went in. We went from shooting spikes to a 140 ever now and then. The difference was huge.

But there is also another thing I think APR’s really influenced - and that was “passing deer”. Years ago - Nobody I knew passed a buck - not even a spike. APR’s made people pass bucks. The more they passed, the easier it got. After four or five yrs of APR hunting, and you were now killing basket racked 8 pts instead of spikes - you saw the potential of what could happen if you didnt shoot evey buck as a 1.5 yr old. People started passing 8 pts. It was almost a bigger badge to wear - instead of saying I killed an 8 pt - I PASSED an 8 pt. No kidding? You really passed an 8 pt? Shooting a basket racked 8 pt now meant nothing - whereas pre APR days - you were THE deer hunter. The more deer people passed - the more everyone passed, and the easier it became to pass them. TV shows were full of folks passing deer and shooting bigger and bigger deer. It became normal to pass a deer.

While there are - in some areas, a lot of folks shooting the first legal buck they see - there are a lot of folks passing ALL 1 and 2 yr old bucks - and probably 3 yr old bucks. Because of this phenomenon, it is almost like reverse high grading. We see many, many inferior antlered deer that are left to live out their life to old age - because nobody wants to shoot some scraggly horn six or seven pt. We try to - because we like deer meat - but we dont feel in our situation that shooting does helps us - so we try to take out the inferior adult bucks. But even we have trouble doing it. A nice calm cold morning and scraggle horn walks by - most times, we dont shoot because we are looking for something bigger. These inferior bucks are not the only ones left to breed - but they are sure in the mix.

 

[Garrett S]

When I think about western NY there are some wicked variables that change. Ie- 2-3 yrs of bad or light winters back to back, early/late ag plant/harvest, a gun season that comes in the first Saturday after the 11/15 which can start during active chasing or outside or have greater/lesser hunter participation based on weather. Bandwidth of the sample size and duration can change averages a bunch. We’ve had a bunch of reg changes and some more prevalent disease in the last 10yrs too… more XY kills means less age in the long run.

I’d also throw this in… the NYS DEC is where the data comes from and they suck. I used age deer for them and it’s a sample size of 4-6000 deer which is less than 5% of a given harvest let alone the inaccuracy. So if your data source is garbage… we know what the findings will be.

The macro versus micro theme seems to be a prevalent discussion here… state vs county vs town vs block

 

[Wind Gypsy]

Up north in zone 3 or 4a big woods I could see severe winters playing a big part in buck potential too. For example the last two winters have been tough. Buck fawns the past two springs were likely carried by does in poor body condition and thus their genetic potential has been reduced. I could see there being some incorrect conclusions when these year classes are 2 and 3 or 3 and 4 and guys just aren't getting pictures of anything special.

 

[S.T.Fanatic]

This is exactly what we saw after APR went in. We went from shooting spikes to a 140 ever now and then. The difference was huge.

But there is also another thing I think APR’s really influenced - and that was “passing deer”. Years ago - Nobody I knew passed a buck - not even a spike. APR’s made people pass bucks. The more they passed, the easier it got. After four or five yrs of APR hunting, and you were now killing basket racked 8 pts instead of spikes - you saw the potential of what could happen if you didnt shoot evey buck as a 1.5 yr old. People started passing 8 pts. It was almost a bigger badge to wear - instead of saying I killed an 8 pt - I PASSED an 8 pt. No kidding? You really passed an 8 pt? Shooting a basket racked 8 pt now meant nothing - whereas pre APR days - you were THE deer hunter. The more deer people passed - the more everyone passed, and the easier it became to pass them. TV shows were full of folks passing deer and shooting bigger and bigger deer. It became normal to pass a deer.

While there are - in some areas, a lot of folks shooting the first legal buck they see - there are a lot of folks passing ALL 1 and 2 yr old bucks - and probably 3 yr old bucks. Because of this phenomenon, it is almost like reverse high grading. We see many, many inferior antlered deer that are left to live out their life to old age - because nobody wants to shoot some scraggly horn six or seven pt. We try to - because we like deer meat - but we dont feel in our situation that shooting does helps us - so we try to take out the inferior adult bucks. But even we have trouble doing it. A nice calm cold morning and scraggle horn walks by - most times, we dont shoot because we are looking for something bigger. These inferior bucks are not the only ones left to breed - but they are sure in the mix.

And keep in mind that the way a bucks rack looks may have nothing to do with the offspring it will produce. The poor rack may have to do with the doe that passed on the genes. That 7 pt verry well could produce a B&C fawn if left to live a few years.

 

[westonwhitetail]

Is this average mature deer shot, or average mature deer potential? Average deer shot might be 110-130, but I'd be willing to bet the average mature potential is higher, 140-150. This is in my area, west central Wisconsin. Everytime the nice 2.5-3.5 is shot, they are recorded as 110-130, but if they lived to 4.5+ they would likely average 140-150 is my estimate
.

 

[SwampCat]

And keep in mind that the way a bucks rack looks may have nothing to do with the offspring it will produce. The poor rack may have to do with the doe that passed on the genes. That 7 pt verry well could produce a B&C fawn if left to live a few years.

No doubt. The only thing known is that particular deer doesnt measure up and probably isnt ever going to. If you dont shoot does, and you like to eat deer meat - the mature scrubby antlered deer draw the short straw. Every doe also falls in the same category. For those who shoot does, every time you kill one, you may be taking out the queen of the land when it comes to producing the next B&C buck.

 

[Baker]

No doubt. The only thing known is that particular deer doesnt measure up and probably isnt ever going to. If you dont shoot does, and you like to eat deer meat - the mature scrubby antlered deer draw the short straw. Every doe also falls in the same category. For those who shoot does, every time you kill one, you may be taking out the queen of the land when it comes to producing the next B&C buck.

LoL, " the queen of the land" . Beautiful. Thats what my wife says every time we sell pregnant does from the ranch or shoot a pregnant doe from farm. " That one may have been bred buy a superstar". True. But somehow it all works out and by staying below cc and keeping nutrition 100% herd is always generally improving. All that said a scrubby 4 yr old generally has a short life expectancy

 

[Brian662]

No doubt. The only thing known is that particular deer doesnt measure up and probably isnt ever going to. If you dont shoot does, and you like to eat deer meat - the mature scrubby antlered deer draw the short straw. Every doe also falls in the same category. For those who shoot does, every time you kill one, you may be taking out the queen of the land when it comes to producing the next B&C buck.

If you believe the science, that queen's offspring (male) will wind up 2-10 miles away if she is still alive.

 

[BenAllgood]

If you believe the science, that queen's offspring (male) will wind up 2-10 miles away if she is still alive.

Several studies now have shown dispersal. A very recent one published in 2022 in SW Wisconsin involved GPS tracking of 590 deer. Here's a chart from that study. And here's a link to it: https://movementecologyjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s40462-022-00342-5

 

[S.T.Fanatic]

If you believe the science, that queen's offspring (male) will wind up 2-10 miles away if she is still alive.

And that buck will breed does that have buck(s) offspring that come back again. That is unless the chain keeps getting broke at 1-2 years after hitting the ground.

 

[H20fwler]

I'm not sold on the age making bone, that age=big racks.... but I have seen older bucks racks seem to really blow up adding 30" or more the following year when they were mature looking already but I think that is rare.

World record typical, Hanson buck 3.5-4.5 years old.
https://www.madetohunt.com/the-milo-hanson-buck/ https://www.angelfire.com/nc3/dshunting0/apages/wcbucks.html

Buck my wifes uncle killed, ODNR aged it at 3.5 scored 172 net.



I am not in a high density deer area at all or what others consider a trophy county…actually one of the bottom ten deer harvest counties in the state.
There have been two nice legit Booners killed within a mile of our bigger farm in the past three years.

All that said, to answer the question “what do I consider our average mature buck size for my area”. I would say 130”-150” and over 200 pounds live weight. Although a lot of bucks never get the chance to hit maturity of 3.5-6.5 years old. It is common to see mature bucks taken every fall here but the bulk are 1.5 and 2.5 year olds.

My personal best is a 159 7/8 and I’ve probably shot a half dozen 130-140’s.
I’m not hung up on horn anymore, it’s great to shoot a big one but I’m fine with a smaller rack and fat body for the freezer..I enjoy deer hunting the rack is secondary to me now. Would rather see my boys shoot a huge one.

 

[SwampCat]

LoL, " the queen of the land" . Beautiful. Thats what my wife says every time we sell pregnant does from the ranch or shoot a pregnant doe from farm. " That one may have been bred buy a superstar". True. But somehow it all works out and by staying below cc and keeping nutrition 100% herd is always generally improving. All that said a scrubby 4 yr old generally has a short life expectancy

According to BenAllgoods supplied study, 64.2% of juvenile males disperse. That means 35% dont. I think a lot of people think only in terms bucks. We also need to think in terms if does - maybe even moreso. How many doe fawns disperse - I have read 50%. So half my queen of the herd doe fawns stay at home to carry on the queen of the herd genetics. I have also seen study results that attribute up to 70% of buck characteristics to the doe - 50% genetics and 20% to condition of the doe, being a single fawn, motherly instincts, etc.

And as previously said, The offspring of that dispersed yearling buck may come back, also

 

[S.T.Fanatic]

I'm not sold on the age making bone, that age=big racks.... but I have seen older bucks racks seem to really blow up adding 30" or more the following year when they were mature looking already but I think that is rare.

World record typical, Hanson buck 3.5-4.5 years old.
https://www.madetohunt.com/the-milo-hanson-buck/ https://www.angelfire.com/nc3/dshunting0/apages/wcbucks.html

Buck my wifes uncle killed, ODNR aged it at 3.5 scored 172 net.

View attachment 55648

I am not in a high density deer area at all or what others consider a trophy county…actually one of the bottom ten deer harvest counties in the state.
There have been two nice legit Booners killed within a mile of our bigger farm in the past three years.

All that said, to answer the question “what do I consider our average mature buck size for my area”. I would say 130”-150” and over 200 pounds live weight. Although a lot of bucks never get the chance to hit maturity of 3.5-6.5 years old. It is common to see mature bucks taken every fall here but the bulk are 1.5 and 2.5 year olds.

My personal best is a 159 7/8 and I’ve probably shot a half dozen 130-140’s.
I’m not hung up on horn anymore, it’s great to shoot a big one but I’m fine with a smaller rack and fat body for the freezer..I enjoy deer hunting the rack is secondary to me now. Would rather see my boys shoot a huge one.

I fully believe that northern bucks mature at an earlier age than southern deer. It makes total sense to me that they would just considering weather. Just because I believe it doesn't make it true but...