How Big is Your Average Mature Deer - B&C?

[Wind Gypsy]

Here's a study done on public areas in Mississippi where high-grading was recorded.

View attachment 55442

18"ish average difference for 3 YO in a low soil quality region after APR is eye opening! I knew high grading was a thing but have leaned more towards the APR support side just because of poor age structure but a guy may have to reconsider!

 

[b116757]

UP of Michigan along with many areas of Northern Wisconsin and Minnesota in the vast forested areas would likely benefit quite a bit from supplemental protein cubes fed earlier in the year. I know growing up in N Wisconsin and we also owned a farm in the UP. Areas that did have some ag consistently produced higher deer numbers for sure than what was found in the national forests. I’d be willing to bet adding some quality protein earlier in the year wouldn’t necessary artificially inflate deer numbers in an heavy forested area so winter kill would be higher do to over population but would contribute to better antler development. Some of those northern forested areas are tough to hunt for sure because deer numbers are so low per square mile.

 

[S.T.Fanatic]

I would say our average is 130" on an 8 pt and about 135" on a 10 pt. We don't have a large quantity of deer that age but it isn't uncommon for a 3 year old 10 pt to be 150 - 160"

 

[SwampCat]

So, just from that, I would surmise, the native habitat in the general area is overall not good, aka "big woods". Then, there's high pressure on a valuable food source aka "ag" which almost negates that as part of their diet due to pressure day and night. Then, the best young bucks are being killed with the current and previous AR (in the surrounding area). The age may be increasing, but the AR could be targeting the best young deer. 3 points on a side could take out some good 1.5YO bucks. I'm just throwing things out there, as I don't know the whole situation.

The so called APR’s and high grading probably are a double edged sword. I hunted in AR for 18 years pre 3 pt apr - and killed one 7 pt and one 8 pt. And a ton of spikes and forkhorns. Almost all bucks were killed as 1.5 yr olds, so even though there might have been no high grading, you couldnt tell it because very rarely did a deer live to 3 yrs old.

Within five years of the initiation of the 3 pt antler restriction, we started regularly killing 2.5 yr old 8 pts - something we had never done before. As those deer became common, people actually started passing bucks - also something that we had never done before. In 18 yrs of hunting in this state pre apr, I never passed a buck - not even a spike. I knew no one who ever passed a buck. Now, probably 80% of the hunters I know routinely pass 2.5 yr 8 pts and a lot of 3.5 yr olds

So the question becomes, is it worse to high grade but pass a decent portion of the 3.5 yr olds, or shoot 90% of the bucks as 1.5 yr
olds.

I can tell you this positively. In 18 yrs pre apr, I never SAW a deer that would have scored 110”. In the last 18 yrs - all with aprs - in antler challenged south AR - there are two deer on the wall mid 150’s, four or five 140’s, and another six or seven 130 plus.

I will take high grading.

 

[BenAllgood]

The so called APR’s and high grading probably are a double edged sword. I hunted in AR for 18 years pre 3 pt apr - and killed one 7 pt and one 8 pt. And a ton of spikes and forkhorns. Almost all bucks were killed as 1.5 yr olds, so even though there might have been no high grading, you couldnt tell it because very rarely did a deer live to 3 yrs old.

Within five years of the initiation of the 3 pt antler restriction, we started regularly killing 2.5 yr old 8 pts - something we had never done before. As those deer became common, people actually started passing bucks - also something that we had never done before. In 18 yrs of hunting in this state pre apr, I never passed a buck - not even a spike. I knew no one who ever passed a buck. Now, probably 80% of the hunters I know routinely pass 2.5 yr 8 pts and a lot of 3.5 yr olds

So the question becomes, is it worse to high grade but pass a decent portion of the 3.5 yr olds, or shoot 90% of the bucks as 1.5 yr
olds.

I can tell you this positively. In 18 yrs pre apr, I never SAW a deer that would have scored 110”. In the last 18 yrs - all with aprs - in antler challenged south AR - there are two deer on the wall mid 150’s, four or five 140’s, and another six or seven 130 plus.

I will take high grading.

I agree with you that it can raise the age structure by not shooting some bucks. I just think there are better ways to do it.

 

[SwampCat]

I agree with you that it can raise the age structure by not shooting some bucks. I just think there are better ways to do it.

I am interested n your thoughts. At my place - we basically dont shoot a deer unless it is 4 yrs or more. That is not practical statewhide

 

[BenAllgood]

I am interested n your thoughts. At my place - we basically dont shoot a deer unless it is 4 yrs or more. That is not practical statewhide

My thoughts are you can't rely on the majority of hunters to be able to judge the age of a buck, either alive or dead. If you want more older bucks, you have to reduce the number of bucks being taken. I think the best way overall are buck limits combined with limiting season lengths for bucks. Depending on the area, only one of those measures may be needed. Just my 2cents.

 

[drycreek]

My thoughts are you can't rely on the majority of hunters to be able to judge the age of a buck, either alive or dead. If you want more older bucks, you have to reduce the number of bucks being taken.

I could live with that. Our state has different rules for different regions, but in my region we have a 13” inside rule. That’s great, but we also have an unbranched antler rule, that being a spike or a three point. That’s not great IMO. One buck per season should be enough if you are trying to get your herd maturity to grow. That’s supposedly what the 13” rule is for, but then they let you kill a spike that nobody knows what he might turn in to. Seems acting at cross purposes to me, but the real reason, again IMO, is that the state didn’t want to hear all the pissing and moaning from the public about losing a buck tag. I think that kids under, say 12 years, should be able to take any buck, maybe that keeps them in the game. If you just need more deer to eat, whack a doe, they taste real good.

 

[SwampCat]

I think if you got 100 deer hunters together, you would have 100 opinions. We dont shoot any does. We used to, but figured out over several years we could not shoot does if we wanted our herd to build. Our statewide fawn recruitment numbers average just under .5 fawns per doe. We dont shoot does so the neighbors can - and there are still some left over.

I long lobbied our g&f to restrict our seasons and bag limits, and while they did concur that our local deer population was depressed - they also said they couldnt specifically manage every corner of the state. I took it upon myself to quit blaming my neighbors and our g&f - and took management into my own hands on our 400 acres. It isnt easy. It isnt cheap. But we usually have a decent deer or two every year - and we have a good population. We dont shoot does and we shoot only mature bucks - unless one of the grand daughters pleads just right.

To be honest, our g&f does a pretty good job. We have a lengthy season, a two buck bag limit - opportunity for all. Our annual harvest has been pretty dang consistent - in numbers and close to a 1:1 buck:doe ratio. Trophy quality continues to grow - I think AR is now something like 15 in b&c bucks - and getting better.

Some folks like to eat deer meat, some like to run dogs, some like longer seasons and some like shorter seasons with more restrictions - increasing quality. We have it all in this state - and a lot of public land to boot. CWD is trying to mess it up. I can remember days of shorter seasons - and every hunter was in the woods at the same time - decreasing the quality of the hunting experience. I dont know if shorter seasons would decrease harvest - as more folks might be prone to be less picky.

It is hard to suit everyone. It is hard to put a trophy buck in front of everyone. I know a lot of folks around me want more restrictive regulations so the bucks will potentially grow older. I know just as many who want meat for the freezer - and a six pt eats better than an old deer. Impossible to please everyone.

 

[Wild Thing]

My thoughts are you can't rely on the majority of hunters to be able to judge the age of a buck, either alive or dead. If you want more older bucks, you have to reduce the number of bucks being taken. I think the best way overall are buck limits combined with limiting season lengths for bucks. Depending on the area, only one of those measures may be needed. Just my 2cents.

And where is this Utopia you speak of BenAllgood? Many of us in Michigan would love to see a one buck rule and shorter seasons but isn't likely to ever happen. The DNR likes license revenues so they are more interested in selling licenses than in managing the deer herd for older age class bucks. They are already bemoaning the fact that we have gone from a state with 750,000 hunters to now only 600,000 with hunter numbers declining.

My personal rule for deer hunting is that my second buck must be bigger than my first. I am looking for a 3-4 year old deer for my first buck so it isn't likely I am going to see another one older than that in the same year. As I mentioned previously, I have actually passed on some 3 year olds because they weren't bigger than the first buck I tagged. I very rarely shoot 2 bucks here in the same season....but there are others who gladly shoot every buck they see and use tags from their mothers, their girl friends or others so they can keep hunting from Oct 1st to Jan 1st....and we actually have special seasons that begin in September and run through the end of January. This trend is towards more hunting opportunities - not less. You can legally kill 2 bucks and 10 does per season here with no special drawing of tags. They want more deer killed - not less.

I could definitely relate to a lot of what Swampcat spoke of above. When I was a young hunter, we were killing the vast majority of yearling bucks every year. 2 year olds were few and far between where I hunted and 3 year olds were things you only dreamed about - you never saw one. The camp I grew up in practiced the "Sacred Doe Theory". If anyone would have killed a doe they would have been tarred and feathered and run out of camp forever. Yet it was quite common to see 40-50 does per day for the first few days of the firearms season and maybe a spike buck if you were lucky....and like Swampcat, we killed every yearling buck that we saw.

I started passing up yearling bucks in 1981. Other hunters thought I was absolutely crazy. Nobody ever passed up a buck back then. I passed up 2 yearling bucks that first year and ate both of my tags. I was elated when I got the opportunity to shoot a 2 year old and in the next 20 years, I only killed one 3 year old. That is what happens when you are practicing voluntary QDM or APR's and nobody else around you is doing it. It doesn't take very many "brown and down" hunters to make a significant dent in the yearling buck crop for the year.

It wasn't until 2001 when we finally got APR's in our DMU that we started seeing some older bucks. Even then it was an uphill battle with the DNR as their official position on APR's is that they support "Voluntary APR's". Well I am here to tell you from my personal 20 year experience in practicing Voluntary APRs that they just don't work. It must be regulated....unless you can afford to buy 1,000 acres of more and keep everyone else out.

I agree with you wholeheartedly Ben Allgood - reducing the buck kill and shortening the seasons would go a long way towards creating a deer herd that many of us would like to see. But, as others have said, many hunters are very happy to hang their tags on yearling bucks and many would rather kill 2 yearling bucks than to kill a single doe. Different strokes for different folks for sure.

Whatever regulations are ultimately approved some hunters will be happy while others will be saddened. I've been around long enough to know that I shouldn't let my expectations soar too high because I've seen this deer management mentality since my first deer hunting season back in 1961. Change comes very....very....slowly. Fortunately, we have opportunities to hunt other states and provinces where older and bigger deer do exist. Many Michigan residents travel to other states to hunt, while very few non-residents travel to Michigan to hunt. I wonder why??

 

[weekender21]

Southern Appalachia, an average 3.5 year old is ~95 inches. Anything over 100” would really stand out at that age. It’s rare for a 4 or 5 year old to be north of 120” in our area.


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[Wind Gypsy]

I haven’t shot a buck in my home state in over a decade

 

[S.T.Fanatic]

South East Minnesota buck. How old is he?

 

[Mortenson]

2.5 or 3.5. Based on 1 pic.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

View attachment 55471
South East Minnesota buck. How old is he?

I’m not good at this but I’ll say 1 or 2.

 

[Mtyhunter]

South East Minnesota buck. How old is he?

Body looks young to me, 1-2
I guess I'm more fortunate than I realized after reading these posts. Have around 20 cams on an 800 acre lease, so we get to know our resident herd decently. Of course alot of my area's 2yr old bucks avg around 100", and if they make it to 3, I'd say it averages up to prob 120. But, it's not uncommon to see a known 3yr old buck hit the 140's.
Once they hit the 3+ age, seems like we have 2 lines of buck genetics on our place. About 2/3 have the high and tall, perfectly symetrical racks, with most having a left side antler slightly bigger than the right. Best scoring I've seen from this group is 150-160, usually not more than 10pt, spread of 15-19 inches. The other 1/3 not nearly as tall, but really wide, with a lot of non-typical points, maybe 12-16, spreads exceeding 20". They also can go to the 150-160 range. The best bucks in our immediate area seem to be a crossbreed based on what the rack looks like, and have seen a couple in the last 5 years that went 180+. I'm not sure how much genetics influence the recipe, but my eyeballs tell me consistently there are 2 strains running around in my area.

 

[Wild Thing]

Body looks young to me, 1-2
I guess I'm more fortunate than I realized after reading these posts. Have around 20 cams on an 800 acre lease, so we get to know our resident herd decently. Of course alot of my area's 2yr old bucks avg around 100", and if they make it to 3, I'd say it averages up to prob 120. But, it's not uncommon to see a known 3yr old buck hit the 140's.
Once they hit the 3+ age, seems like we have 2 lines of buck genetics on our place. About 2/3 have the high and tall, perfectly symetrical racks, with most having a left side antler slightly bigger than the right. Best scoring I've seen from this group is 150-160, usually not more than 10pt, spread of 15-19 inches. The other 1/3 not nearly as tall, but really wide, with a lot of non-typical points, maybe 12-16, spreads exceeding 20". They also can go to the 150-160 range. The best bucks in our immediate area seem to be a crossbreed based on what the rack looks like, and have seen a couple in the last 5 years that went 180+. I'm not sure how much genetics influence the recipe, but my eyeballs tell me consistently there are 2 strains running around in my area.

Very impressive Adam Goins - You have much to be thankful for.

 

[Wild Thing]

View attachment 55471
South East Minnesota buck. How old is he?

Looks like a yearling to me too - I guess I would be a little surprised if he was 2 1/2. Can we see his teeth?

 

[Bowsnbucks]

I think if you got 100 deer hunters together, you would have 100 opinions. We dont shoot any does. We used to, but figured out over several years we could not shoot does if we wanted our herd to build. Our statewide fawn recruitment numbers average just under .5 fawns per doe. We dont shoot does so the neighbors can - and there are still some left over.

This is exactly what several of the camps on our mountain concluded as well. Our deer numbers were so low after some years of doe tag frenzy, it became hard to cut tracks in the snow. Driving produced no shooting. So a few camps - including ours - cut back on shooting does for several years. Gradually the deer herd began to build back up. It's a simple numbers game. Sure - everyone wants to take a deer every year - but that's shooting ourselves in the foot long-term.

Personally - I've passed on smaller - but legal - bucks for a few years. If a few more of us hunters practiced a bit of trigger restraint, our herds might produce better numbers & more mature bucks. The camps on our mountain have learned that lesson the hard way.

 

[SwampCat]

This is exactly what several of the camps on our mountain concluded as well. Our deer numbers were so low after some years of doe tag frenzy, it became hard to cut tracks in the snow. Driving produced no shooting. So a few camps - including ours - cut back on shooting does for several years. Gradually the deer herd began to build back up. It's a simple numbers game. Sure - everyone wants to take a deer every year - but that's shooting ourselves in the foot long-term.

Personally - I've passed on smaller - but legal - bucks for a few years. If a few more of us hunters practiced a bit of trigger restraint, our herds might produce better numbers & more mature bucks. The camps on our mountain have learned that lesson the hard way.

Our g&f extolled the virtues of a balanced herd. Shoot your does down to balance the herd. We bought in. Turns out balancing the herd can mean different things in different areas. We almost ran out of deer and we were part of the problem. We have an average annual fawn recruitment of .5 fawns per doe. A 1:1 buck:doe ratio does not work in my area. I have found I need about 2.5 does per buck to maintain - or slightly grow the herd and provide enough deer for the neighbors.

We found out the hard way - it is a WHOLE lot easier to shoot them down than grow them back. Took about two years going down and seven years coming back. I am dang protective of my does now.