How Big is Your Average Mature Deer - B&C?

[Wind Gypsy]

Age and Nutrition, Age and Nutrition ...then genetics

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This thread and the Google machine led me to the same graphs from MSU last night. The MSU deer lab site mentioned there being only 2 studies on genetics impacts (one by MSU and one from TX) and the TX study showed genetics having twice the impact that the MSU study did. So it seems pretty unsettled but from listening to prior deer podcasts and such with Bronson and Steve D I had it in my mind that genetics were way down the list. That is why I’m as surprised by @Wild Thing’s input.

 

[BenAllgood]

This thread and the Google machine led me to the same graphs from MSU last night. The MSU deer lab site mentioned there being only 2 studies on genetics impacts (one by MSU and one from TX) and the TX study showed genetics having twice the impact that the MSU study did. So it seems pretty unsettled but from listening to prior deer podcasts and such with Bronson and Steve D I had it in my mind that genetics were way down the list. That is why I’m as surprised by @Wild Thing’s input.

Yep. High grading is a thing. The MSU study wasn't looking at that. They were just looking at an unhunted population where diet and age could be controlled. Most hunters, if given the choice at 2 bucks standing in front of them are going to take the larger antlered one. Maybe that larger antlered one is only a superb 2.5 YO. Maybe the other one was a subpar 3.5 YO. Generations of doing that can lead to high grading.

 

[BenAllgood]

This thread and the Google machine led me to the same graphs from MSU last night. The MSU deer lab site mentioned there being only 2 studies on genetics impacts (one by MSU and one from TX) and the TX study showed genetics having twice the impact that the MSU study did. So it seems pretty unsettled but from listening to prior deer podcasts and such with Bronson and Steve D I had it in my mind that genetics were way down the list. That is why I’m as surprised by @Wild Thing’s input.

That Texas study was in a high fence where they were isolating for genetics. Here's a takeaway from that study found here https://tpwd.texas.gov/huntwild/hunt/wma/wildlife_management/kerr_wma/research/ :

"We can basically place deer into three groups. One group will always have poor antler quality regardless of nutrition, one group will always have good antler quality and then the third group, which makes up the bulk of the herd, will display variable quality depending on the level of nutrition. We termed them “swing” deer. During years of adequate nutrition, they will have good antler quality and during times of nutritional stress they will have poor antler quality. If a manager is attempting to intensively remove bucks with lower antler quality from the breeding population, then those years of abundant nutrition will mask the swing deer and protect them from harvest."

 

[Bowsnbucks]

I don’t know for sure but a 16 point was harvested on the big farm about 3 years ago I don’t know what it ended up scoring and 2 years ago a 200 inch buck was taken on the neighboring property to our small farm. Not at all uncommon for me to have 10’s and 12’s running around in bachelor groups. The discerning hunter in my area has to stay disciplined not to shoot the 10’s and 12’s because a big boy could be the next thing to walk in that’s not always as easy as it sounds. I don’t know about currently but my county in SE Kansas several years ago was one of top 2 in the state for highest number of Pope and Young bucks harvested in the preceding 10 years. It’s a very good place to be a trophy whitetail hunter with better than average odds of getting a crack at a wall hanger.

So ......... what ARE the GPS coordinates to your stands???????????????

 

[sandbur]

I know exactly what the average weight, antler points, spread, base circumference, etc, is because we have been recording that data for every deer we have ever killed here. Even the does are weighed and aged. I never added them up and averaged them out until just now but, I guess it is nice to have the data.

My property is in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. Our bucks do not grow as big as many other areas of the U.P. (or the deer in Lower Michigan). Don't know why or why not - they just don't. With Mandatory Antler Point Restrictions here for many years we were finally able to put some age on them but we just can't get the antlers to grow any bigger than the mid-120 inches.

Every deer we kill is weighed...
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and aged using the tooth replacement and wear method. I arrive at my age estimate and later we take either the head or the jaw bone in to our local DNR office and the biologists there also give their age estimates. We are almost always the same although there have been times when my estimate has differed from theirs by 1 year. In fact, on one of those I sent the incisors in to DeerAge.com and they agreed with my age estimate. I was taught this method by several different DNR biologists and technicians years ago and a good friend of mine is a veterinarian who worked on deer farms where the exact age of the deer was known, so he helped me out a lot. I also attended the QDMA Deer Steward II course where we were taught and tested on aging by tooth wear.
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Our buck pole is in the lean-to of the barn. All of the tools we need - gambrel hangers, scales, jawbone extractor, chains and ropes are kept right there by the buck pole.
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I bought this log book from QDMA many moons ago and we have religiously used it to record the data..
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In addition to the biological data, we record the date and time harvested, the hunter and the location of the kill...
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These are my scribblings from today for 3.5 year old bucks:
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Heaviest weight 200# dressed and the lightest weighed 108. Coyotes got to one of them before we did but the average of the other 20 bucks was 149.1#.

10 points are extremely rare here. We have only killed one 10 point since 1994. Three of these bucks had 7 points and one had only 6 points (no brow tines). 7 of them had 9 points and the rest were all 8 points so the average is just a little over 8 points.

You can tally up all of the antler spread, beam length and circumferences if you are interested. The number behind the decimal point is in eighths of an inch - not tenths.

We haven't scored many of their antlers but, trust me, none of them would go over 125 inches. Even the one 5 1/2 year old that my wife tagged barely made 100 inches. Like I said, we can get a little age on them but we can't get their antlers to grow any bigger. The 5 year old for example, didn't gain a single inch between age 4 and 5.

I wish we could grow giant bucks like some of you guys but it just isn't in the cards (or the soil) here.

I have to confess to not thoroughly reading all of the replies in this thread.

I feel one key point is the length of the ‘growing season’ for antler growth. Deer need to recover from the rigors of winter to get maximum antler growth. They also need adequate rainfall during that period.

Places like the UP take much longer for winter to fade away.

I have been at the place of striving for high scoring antlers. At some point, each hunter needs to realize that they either enjoy the hunt they have or hunt somewhere else. We can only do so much in a hunting area until additional responses start to decrease. Responses could be deer numbers, antler growth, deer weight, or other data.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

That Texas study was in a high fence where they were isolating for genetics. Here's a takeaway from that study found here https://tpwd.texas.gov/huntwild/hunt/wma/wildlife_management/kerr_wma/research/ :

I know I've heard Bronson S and D Higgins talk a lot about fetal programming or pregnant doe health having a huge impact on potential as well. Fair to assume that factor was eliminated in the TX study? Just wonder if the "always poor" antler group would grow out of that with a couple generations of healthy pregnancies and subsequent good nutrition.

 

[Wild Thing]

I have to confess to not thoroughly reading all of the replies in this thread.

I feel one key point is the length of the ‘growing season’ for antler growth. Deer need to recover from the rigors of winter to get maximum antler growth. They also need adequate rainfall during that period.

Places like the UP take much longer for winter to fade away.

I have been at the place of striving for high scoring antlers. At some point, each hunter needs to realize that they either enjoy the hunt they have or hunt somewhere else. We can only do so much in a hunting area until additional responses start to decrease. Responses could be deer numbers, antler growth, deer weight, or other data.

Very much agree sandbur. We have provided top end groceries, native browse, mineral licks, etc for our deer but there are significant limitations based upon other factors. If we waited for a 130" B&C buck to show up here, we would probably never shoot another deer. Consequently, we target the top 10%-15% of what we have available. If we want to hunt bigger deer, we have resigned ourselves to the fact that we are going to have to hunt out-of-state - which we do.

 

[Turkish]

Am I misremembering or isn’t there research that show that true “average” B&C score for whitetails across different regions of the country is strikingly similar? I thought Strickland and Demairis had mentioned this before.

 

[BenAllgood]

Very much agree sandbur. We have provided top end groceries, native browse, mineral licks, etc for our deer but there are significant limitations based upon other factors. If we waited for a 130" B&C buck to show up here, we would probably never shoot another deer. Consequently, we target the top 10%-15% of what we have available. If we want to hunt bigger deer, we have resigned ourselves to the fact that we are going to have to hunt out-of-state - which we do.

What is the hunting pressure like in your area? Are there antler restrictions, and if so, how long have they been in place? What's the habitat like in the areas around you for a few miles?

 

[BenAllgood]

Here's a study done on public areas in Mississippi where high-grading was recorded.

 

[Wild Thing]

What is the hunting pressure like in your area? Are there antler restrictions, and if so, how long have they been in place? What's the habitat like in the areas around you for a few miles?

Primarily private holdings around me but with fairly substantial hunting pressure. Habitat is largely big woods but we do have nearby ag but the farmers kill bucks (illegally), does and fawns on crop damage permits, from July 1st to September 30 and are allowed to shoot until 11 PM. The deer that hang out on that farm (right next door to me) don't usually live to see a fall hunting season.

We petitioned for and received mandatory antler point restrictions in 2001 (3 points on a side for the first tag and 4 points on a side for the second tag). This is when we started getting some age on our deer. Within 3 years or so we were passing on 2 year old bucks as well as the yearlings. Prior to that, we had been practicing QDM but none of our neighbors did. We enjoyed the APR's until 2018 when a single CWD positive deer was found on the farm that kills the deer on crop damage permits. The DNR promptly axed the APR regs and any deer with 3" spikes was legal. After 5 years of testing a few thousand more deer, no additional CWD positives were found so they have reinstated APR's again beginning this year.

 

[BenAllgood]

Primarily private holdings around me but with fairly substantial hunting pressure. Habitat is largely big woods but we do have nearby ag but the farmers kill bucks (illegally), does and fawns on crop damage permits, from July 1st to September 30 and are allowed to shoot until 11 PM. The deer that hang out on that farm (right next door to me) don't usually live to see a fall hunting season.

We petitioned for and received mandatory antler point restrictions in 2001 (3 points on a side for the first tag and 4 points on a side for the second tag). This is when we started getting some age on our deer. Within 3 years or so we were passing on 2 year old bucks as well as the yearlings. Prior to that, we had been practicing QDM but none of our neighbors did. We enjoyed the APR's until 2018 when a single CWD positive deer was found on the farm that kills the deer on crop damage permits. The DNR promptly axed the APR regs and any deer with 3" spikes was legal. After 5 years of testing a few thousand more deer, no additional CWD positives were found so they have reinstated APR's again beginning this year.

So, just from that, I would surmise, the native habitat in the general area is overall not good, aka "big woods". Then, there's high pressure on a valuable food source aka "ag" which almost negates that as part of their diet due to pressure day and night. Then, the best young bucks are being killed with the current and previous AR (in the surrounding area). The age may be increasing, but the AR could be targeting the best young deer. 3 points on a side could take out some good 1.5YO bucks. I'm just throwing things out there, as I don't know the whole situation.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

So might be a bit of genetics with some help from APR induced high grading resulting in 1 YO 6 and 8 pointers getting whacked and the spikes and forkies getting a pass?

 

[T-Max]

This is a good discussion. I'd say our average 3.5 year old would gross somewhere in the mid-190's.

 

[Wild Thing]

So, just from that, I would surmise, the native habitat in the general area is overall not good, aka "big woods". Then, there's high pressure on a valuable food source aka "ag" which almost negates that as part of their diet due to pressure day and night. Then, the best young bucks are being killed with the current and previous AR (in the surrounding area). The age may be increasing, but the AR could be targeting the best young deer. 3 points on a side could take out some good 1.5YO bucks. I'm just throwing things out there, as I don't know the whole situation.

No question about the high grading of young bucks BenAllgood. One of my neighbors will shoot every legal deer he sees and a yearling 6 or 7 point is just fine for him. Of course, those are especially the kinds of yearling bucks that we want to move up into the next age class.

I don't believe any of our neighbors will pass up a 2 year old 8 point. We are probably the only camp that is doing that. I have even passed a few 3 year olds with hopes that they might make it through until the next year. I do know of one that did make it and one of our guests tagged it the following year as a 4 year old.

4 year olds are more common now than they were 20 years ago but 5 year olds are almost unheard of. As I mentioned, we have only killed one 5 year old in the 29 years that we have owned the property.....and he didn't grow any bigger antlers as a 5 year old than he did when he was 4 years old - a little over 100 inches.

We also have very long and sometimes very brutal winters where in some bad years we may lose upwards of 200,000 deer over winter (this is in the U.P. of Michigan - not lower Michigan).

 

[BenAllgood]

No question about the high grading of young bucks BenAllgood. One of my neighbors will shoot every legal deer he sees and a yearling 6 or 7 point is just fine for him. Of course, those are especially the kinds of yearling bucks that we want to move up into the next age class.

I don't believe any of our neighbors will pass up a 2 year old 8 point. We are probably the only camp that is doing that. I have even passed a few 3 year olds with hopes that they might make it through until the next year. I do know of one that did make it and one of our guests tagged it the following year as a 4 year old.

4 year olds are more common now than they were 20 years ago but 5 year olds are almost unheard of. As I mentioned, we have only killed one 5 year old in the 29 years that we have owned the property.....and he didn't grow any bigger antlers as a 5 year old than he did when he was 4 years old - a little over 100 inches.

We also have very long and sometimes very brutal winters where in some bad years we may lose upwards of 200,000 deer over winter (this is in the U.P. of Michigan - not lower Michigan).

Now, let me ask you this. Are there any honey hole type spots in upper Michigan that people see great bucks in? parks, suburbs, industrial areas, other off-limit for hunting areas?

 

[Wild Thing]

Nothing like that nearby. There is a small city park about 20 miles away that has some fenced in deer in it and there used to be a decent buck in there, but nothing that I would call a great buck or a giant.

There are occasionally some very nice deer taken in some of the most remote areas like the western Lake Superior counties which have very few deer and much less hunting pressure so they can get a little older. There are also a few counties with quite a bit of agriculture and they grow much better deer than we do here also.

 

[b116757]

That does it....I am selling my Michigan property and moving to Kansas!

Expect to pay around $4000 an acre in my area at least, just across the line in Mo it’s even a bit higher per acre.

 

[T-Max]

Expect to pay around $4000 an acre in my area at least, just across the line in Mo it’s even a bit higher per acre.

You misspoke. What you said was, "Expect to pay around $4000 an acre in my area at least, just across the line in Mo it’s even a bit higher per acre." What you meant to say was, "There are no big deer in Kansas. Stay away!"

 

[Wild Thing]

Expect to pay around $4000 an acre in my area at least, just across the line in Mo it’s even a bit higher per acre.

Yes - I know the higher price tag comes with the better hunting ground. I would probably be able to sell mine for maybe half that price.