How Big is Your Average Mature Deer - B&C?

[BenAllgood]

According to BenAllgoods supplied study, 64.2% of juvenile males disperse. That means 35% dont. I think a lot of people think only in terms bucks. We also need to think in terms if does - maybe even moreso. How many doe fawns disperse - I have read 50%. So half my queen of the herd doe fawns stay at home to carry on the queen of the herd genetics. I have also seen study results that attribute up to 70% of buck characteristics to the doe - 50% genetics and 20% to condition of the doe, being a single fawn, motherly instincts, etc.

And as previously said, The offspring of that dispersed yearling buck may come back, also

Juvenile's in that study were about 8 months old. Yearlings were about 20 months old. 64.2% of the 8 month old bucks dispersed, then 12.5% of the 20 month old bucks dispersed. Only 5% and 6.8% of the juvenile and yearling does dispersed. Adults dispersed at a rate of 1.9% for does and 4.7% for bucks.

 

[Baker]

I fully believe that northern bucks mature at an earlier age than southern deer. It makes total sense to me that they would just considering weather. Just because I believe it doesn't make it true but...

The deer breeders certainly agree with you

 

[Baker]

According to BenAllgoods supplied study, 64.2% of juvenile males disperse. That means 35% dont. I think a lot of people think only in terms bucks. We also need to think in terms if does - maybe even moreso. How many doe fawns disperse - I have read 50%. So half my queen of the herd doe fawns stay at home to carry on the queen of the herd genetics. I have also seen study results that attribute up to 70% of buck characteristics to the doe - 50% genetics and 20% to condition of the doe, being a single fawn, motherly instincts, etc.

And as previously said, The offspring of that dispersed yearling buck may come back, also

I'm not sure what we are discussing here? Do deer disperse. Sure. Yearling bucks more than does. I'm surprised with the 50% doe dispersal you quote...would have thought a lot lower than that. Be that as it may no argument that does contribute heavily to ongoing genetic complexity. What I will challenge is the notion that mortality...whatever the cause...has much to do with current herd genetic quality. I do not buy the notion we can control or materially impact genetics via culling { bucks or does} The genetic makeup is far too complex for that.

Along those lines I think high grading , even if it exists at all, self corrects within a few years. Simple , let even the most abused herd convert to an intense nutritional foundation and allow the bucks to fully mature at 4 plus and quality returns quickly .

 

[Hoytvectrix]

I'm not sure what we are discussing here? Do deer disperse. Sure. Yearling bucks more than does. I'm surprised with the 50% doe dispersal you quote...would have thought a lot lower than that. Be that as it may no argument that does contribute heavily to ongoing genetic complexity. What I will challenge is the notion that mortality...whatever the cause...has much to do with current herd genetic quality. I do not buy the notion we can control or materially impact genetics via culling { bucks or does} The genetic makeup is far too complex for that.

Along those lines I think high grading , even if it exists at all, self corrects within a few years. Simple , let even the most abused herd convert to an intense nutritional foundation and allow the bucks to fully mature at 4 plus and quality returns quickly .

I hope I am not being pedantic here, but I think it would be more accurate to say that it can self correct. How common is "intense nutritional foundation" available in the wild? Let alone in an environment where bucks are allowed to mature to 4 years old or more?

 

[Baker]

I hope I am not being pedantic here, but I think it would be more accurate to say that it can self correct. How common is "intense nutritional foundation" available in the wild? Let alone in an environment where bucks are allowed to mature to 4 years old or more?

The first question to ask is; does it exist...I say no. Second question to ask is why the perception of high grading? I offer it s almost always nutritional deficiencies and lousy harvest strategies creating the perception that all the good deer are gone.

Might be more as I think about it but I'm off to pickle ball...what else do old folks do when its over 100' and too hot to breathe.

 

[BenAllgood]

The first question to ask is; does it exist...I say no. Second question to ask is why the perception of high grading? I offer it s almost always nutritional deficiencies and lousy harvest strategies creating the perception that all the good deer are gone.

Might be more as I think about it but I'm off to pickle ball...what else do old folks do when its over 100' and too hot to breathe.

People's definition of high-grading may not be the same. High-grading, according to that Mississippi study I referenced, wasn't showing genetic change in the herd. It was a lower average score because they weren't allowing the better bucks to get older.

 

[Mtyhunter]

Back in the day, it wasn't unusual to hang out at a check in station to see what was brought in, and hang around the ranger. Also always made it a point to get to know the rangers and biologists on the oklahoma lottery hunts I hunted on. All great guys, and happy to answer every question I had. What I learned long ago from these guys: i could fairly accurately guess a bucks age, by his body and hair, most of the time. When I missed the age, every time the buck was wayyy older than what I guessed, although i was told that aging anything past 6-7 years was very inaccurate unless there was some other kind of proof like pics or video.
Also noted that some of the areas, even if the land looked like perfect big buck territory to me, it consistently had 3-5 yr old bucks that averaged 110 or less. But then, like the area I've hunted now for about 10 yrs, these same age bucks average 130+. I'm hunting in an area with about 50% pure prairie, 20% dead wood that's been spiked, and the rest wooded creek bottoms. It doesn't look appealing at all, but the antler mass and weight is consistently bigger.
I drew in on a hunt on a federal wildlife refuge, and the biggest buck killed that weekend green scored at 160+, jaw aged at 5+, but weighed only 122 lbs dressed. He was the second heaviest buck killed that weekend, but only by 3 pounds. This refuge also had elk on it, and got to see quite a few of those on the hunt. The biologist told me that all the area around the refuge is privately owned, and managed for hunting. The deer/elk on the refuge had mature body weights 25% less than the animals coming off the private lands, due to the supplemental feeding on the private lands. He also said the racks can be noticeably bigger, too. All easy to understand and believe.
Lastly, while conferring w/ ppl who run deer breeding operations, was told about certain minerals/chemicals that are used to grow antler. So here's my question: Are there areas where the mineral content of the natural dirt that contributes to antler growth? If the playing field was level, meaning: no supplemental feeding, no crops, genetics being a push, does the dirt matter?

 

[SwampCat]

I'm not sure what we are discussing here? Do deer disperse. Sure. Yearling bucks more than does. I'm surprised with the 50% doe dispersal you quote...would have thought a lot lower than that. Be that as it may no argument that does contribute heavily to ongoing genetic complexity. What I will challenge is the notion that mortality...whatever the cause...has much to do with current herd genetic quality. I do not buy the notion we can control or materially impact genetics via culling { bucks or does} The genetic makeup is far too complex for that.

Along those lines I think high grading , even if it exists at all, self corrects within a few years. Simple , let even the most abused herd convert to an intense nutritional foundation and allow the bucks to fully mature at 4 plus and quality returns quickly .

I agree 100% with you. I am not shooting my scraggly horn mature bucks in an attempt to alter genetics - I am killing them because we dont kill does and we like deer meat - so the scraggly horn mature bucks are next in line. Our bucks tend not to show a big increase in antler quality after reaching maturity - so we dont feel like we are missing any future antler potential by removing these bucks for the table.

 

[Ikeman]

Agree Ikeman. As far as we are concerned, it is virtually impossible to influence Genetics in a free ranging deer herd. While we are able to get some bucks beyond the yearling Age Class with Mandatory Antler Point Restrictions, growing bucks to 6+ years of age, or even 4+ years of age in many of our areas is a pipe dream as well. That leaves Nutrition as the one element that we can actually have some influence over. And while we can do our best to provide our deer the best groceries we can, Mother Nature does control the trump card. Drought conditions in summer and brutal winter weather can certainly impact that as well.

This is one of the FEW things I think my home state of Texas got right on wildlife…. Our antler restrictions are not a points restriction, they are an inside spread restriction.
AR counties in Texas are 13” minimum inside spread, or roughly “outside the ears”. This was chosen SPECIFICALLY because it weighed towards older class deer. The state decided that points were not statistically indicative to age, but that inside spread was a much more accurate measure.

I’ll be honest, we thought the world was falling when they enacted the restrictions… but, 10-15 years later (depending on county) EVERYONE is enjoying the 14-30 inch jump in average scores harvested. Many areas have experienced even higher jumps because the restrictions gave landowners a further motivation to do even more. Since AR’s, it is save to say that hunting in my hometown’s county has entirely transformed.


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[Ikeman]

Up north in zone 3 or 4a big woods I could see severe winters playing a big part in buck potential too. For example the last two winters have been tough. Buck fawns the past two springs were likely carried by does in poor body condition and thus their genetic potential has been reduced. I could see there being some incorrect conclusions when these year classes are 2 and 3 or 3 and 4 and guys just aren't getting pictures of anything special.

That is so interesting to hear… In my area, summers are our limiting factor. We are currently on our 26th straight day over 100° and my house hasn’t had a drop of rain in 6 weeks.everything for us is about summer forage. The more drought resistant, the better. Lots of guys nowadays moving towards adding Sunn Hemp and Okra into their plots specifically because of drought/heat tolerance.


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[Ikeman]

LoL, " the queen of the land" . Beautiful. Thats what my wife says every time we sell pregnant does from the ranch or shoot a pregnant doe from farm. " That one may have been bred buy a superstar". True. But somehow it all works out and by staying below cc and keeping nutrition 100% herd is always generally improving. All that said a scrubby 4 yr old generally has a short life expectancy

I hope you keep posting YouTube videos, I have been following your content religiously for YEARS on Texas Bowhunter. You are truly an inspiration!


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[SwampCat]

That is so interesting to hear… In my area, summers are our limiting factor. We are currently on our 26th straight day over 100° and my house hasn’t had a drop of rain in 6 weeks.everything for us is about summer forage. The more drought resistant, the better. Lots of guys nowadays moving towards adding Sunn Hemp and Okra into their plots specifically because of drought/heat tolerance.


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Does it take deer some time to start eating okra? I can plant it at my garden with very high deer density and they wont touch it.

 

[Ikeman]

Does it take deer some time to start eating okra? I can plant it at my garden with very high deer density and they wont touch it.

Perhaps it is just a matter of available quality of surrounding food sources up there, but if you have okra in a plot down here, the first year might have okra pods all over, but the second and after you won’t find a living plant one.

I think it is because they deal with heat and drought so well, and stay palatable through dry conditions. Once they figure okra out, you won’t ever see one without a utilization cage again. Heck, even I pull pods off in the summer and eat them raw as a snack. They are little pods of fresh tasting moisture.

EDIT:
I am also dealing with MUCH lower deer densities than many guys up north. The county that my family land is in is exceptionally low. The most recent population numbers are from 2015, and they were 3 deer per square mile…. 3DPSM….!!!


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[SwampCat]

Perhaps it is just a matter of available quality of surrounding food sources up there, but if you have okra in a plot down here, the first year might have okra pods all over, but the second and after you won’t find a living plant one.

I think it is because they deal with heat and drought so well, and stay palatable through dry conditions. Once they figure okra out, you won’t ever see one without a utilization cage again. Heck, even I pull pods off in the summer and eat them raw as a snack. They are little pods of fresh tasting moisture.

EDIT:
I am also dealing with MUCH lower deer densities than many guys up north. The county that my family land is in is exceptionally low. The most recent population numbers are from 2015, and they were 3 deer per square mile…. 3DPSM….!!!


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I didnt realize there was anywhere with only 3 dpsm. What part of state is that. Do you hunt them at that low density?

 

[Wind Gypsy]

That is so interesting to hear… In my area, summers are our limiting factor. We are currently on our 26th straight day over 100° and my house hasn’t had a drop of rain in 6 weeks.everything for us is about summer forage. The more drought resistant, the better. Lots of guys nowadays moving towards adding Sunn Hemp and Okra into their plots specifically because of drought/heat tolerance.


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opposites for sure. When the only food for months is either sticks, tree buds, a conifer, or under 2' of crusty snow. it's cold AF, and wolves are chasing you around through that deep snow, things get pretty dire.

https://files.dnr.state.mn.us/wildlife/deer/reports/wsi/2022/WSI_Cty_Map22.pdf?20230808-16

Winter Severity Index: a general measure of winter conditions. In Minnesota the WSI is calculated by accumulating 1 point for each day with an ambient temperature <= 0 degrees F and an additional point for each day with a snow depth>= 15 inches. End-of-season values <= 50 indicate a mild winter; values >= 120 indicate a severe winter

 

[Ikeman]

I didnt realize there was anywhere with only 3 dpsm. What part of state is that. Do you hunt them at that low density?

I do. This is north central texas. Most of the counties around mine are in MUCH better shape than we are numbers wise. This county had a LOT of poaching to survive up until recently. In the 90’s and early 2000’s It wasn’t uncommon for guys to consider it a successful season if they saw 10 deer. A yearling basket 8 was a trophy. It is rapidly changing, though.
The county just extended its 3-day doe season for the first time in 3 decades, which leads me to believe that our deer census is rising.. though, I haven’t seen new numbers yet.

I do a fair bit of traveling into Oklahoma to get into higher numbers, but I grew up hunting this area exclusively.


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[Baker]

I hope you keep posting YouTube videos, I have been following your content religiously for YEARS on Texas Bowhunter. You are truly an inspiration!


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Thank you. Thats very nice of you to say. It's been a fun journey. I'm back inspired to do more videos focused both on the regenerative practices we are exploring on the farm as well as good deer stuff. We had a great season at the ranch last year and I think you will enjoy the recap...if you like magnificent whitetails:)

 

[g squared 23]

I’d be guessing, but I think an average 3.5 year old is around 130. I’ve seen them as high as 150, and as low as 105-110.

Mature bucks probably average in the 140s gross. Biggest buck taken was 168 gross and it likely was a 4 year old 6x5. That’s about the top end of what we see on cameras. Every year it seems like we have one or two 150s around. Every couple of years we’ll see a 160. I’ve never gotten a picture of a true booner (170/190 net). A legit booner may never show up or might be a once in a lifetime on our property.


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[sandbur]

I'm not sold on the age making bone, that age=big racks.... but I have seen older bucks racks seem to really blow up adding 30" or more the following year when they were mature looking already but I think that is rare.

World record typical, Hanson buck 3.5-4.5 years old.
https://www.madetohunt.com/the-milo-hanson-buck/ https://www.angelfire.com/nc3/dshunting0/apages/wcbucks.html

Buck my wifes uncle killed, ODNR aged it at 3.5 scored 172 net.

View attachment 55648

I am not in a high density deer area at all or what others consider a trophy county…actually one of the bottom ten deer harvest counties in the state.
There have been two nice legit Booners killed within a mile of our bigger farm in the past three years.

All that said, to answer the question “what do I consider our average mature buck size for my area”. I would say 130”-150” and over 200 pounds live weight. Although a lot of bucks never get the chance to hit maturity of 3.5-6.5 years old. It is common to see mature bucks taken every fall here but the bulk are 1.5 and 2.5 year olds.

My personal best is a 159 7/8 and I’ve probably shot a half dozen 130-140’s.
I’m not hung up on horn anymore, it’s great to shoot a big one but I’m fine with a smaller rack and fat body for the freezer..I enjoy deer hunting the rack is secondary to me now. Would rather see my boys shoot a huge one.

Good attitude and I have changed over the years. My emphasis is now on enjoying the hunt and trying not to criticize other hunters on what they choose to kill legally.

I had not enjoyed the hunt when I was so focused on deer that others killed and on antler size.

The hunt emphasis should be on having fun and quality venison at this point in life for me.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

WELL SAID, Bur!! ^ ^ ^