Herd management?

[RGrizzzz]

Yeah now we’re killing 80-90% of the 2yr olds. We’ve always had quality deer in areas but most areas have terrible habitat from years of over population.

And bad logging practices. I see areas that get cut and the Regen is all invasives.

There are too many doe in some areas. Some areas would be better served with more does harvest. Less food competition would let the bucks grow bigger.

 

[Turkey Creek]

Good in theory when you can control in flow and out flow of genetics, but outside of a high fence it isnt going to be obtainable for most people. Unless you hunt a highly isolated population which again most of us do not. I can see the benefit of removing an older buck that isn't going to meet your management goals to open up a spot for an unknown, but there in is the problem it's an "unknown".

 

[West_Fork]

Yeah nothing says quality hunting like Pennsylvania of the 1990’s where 90% of buck harvest was yearlings. Would you rather hunt the Henry mtns for muleys or some general tag.

Neither, I won't play those games. I would go buy a side of beef and a new rifle and be way ahead.

 

[Telemark]

I don't think there is anything I can do for herd management that involves shooting or not shooting certain deer. In Ohio, there isn't much I can do for the herd that would make any kind of difference. In Ontario the only thing I can really do for the herd is provide a lot of food, especially late Fall and early Spring, and try to kill off some wolves.

 

[Baker]

No. Nutrition and age make the difference.Long term nutrition can shift results epigenetically.

 

[Maddog66]

My neighbors all shoot the first buck they see and wolves take what they want when they want it at my place (appx 300 acres).

Last week. 40 yards from my gun stand

 

[jsasker007]

My neighbors all shoot the first buck they see and wolves take what they want when they want it at my place (appx 300 acres).

Last week. 40 yards from my gun stand

My dog looks exactly like that picture. I don't take my dogs out for walks until rifle season is over for that reason. At a distance you could easily mistake my dog for a wild animal.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

Yeah nothing says quality hunting like Pennsylvania of the 1990’s where 90% of buck harvest was yearlings. Would you rather hunt the Henry mtns for muleys or some general tag.

In Pa. we've had a ton of younger bucks killed over the years. They never lived to get age on them, and thus probably bigger racks - if that's the stated goal. Spikes and forkies were gobbled up like candy for years here - and I shot a couple spikes in my time ....... years ago. A number of years ago, before any newer AR rules here, I found no thrill in shooting younger spikes, 3's, 4's, 5's and even smaller 6 pt. bucks. I wanted to take an older, bigger, smarter buck that had several years under his belt. So I've passed on some legal, smaller bucks over the past 15 to 20 years - my choice. But given the hunting pressure here in Pa. (less than years ago), my choice to pass on those bucks won't make a bit of difference in the local buck structure, because any other hunter will likely drop them on sight. My choice to pass on some smaller bucks is just a HOPE that they'll survive for another year. If I don't get him next year (dispersal & rut travels) - maybe he'll be another hunter's "wall hanger".

I agree with what jsasker007 said on page 1 of this thread, about having large tracts of huntable land near his place - you can't control surrounding lands ...... or other hunters' wishes. Short of having a local agreement among like-minded landowners to let younger bucks walk, you can only hope younger bucks survive another year.

 

[Catscratch]

Thanks for all the replies, it's a good read!

My intent in the original question was never about changing herd genetics. I was more curious about has anyone done something (anything) that changed the size of the mature bucks on your place. Back to the bass pond idea... A pond may have a never ending supply of 1/2 pound bass in it with zero fish reaching 1lb. Start removing every male you catch, leave the top 10% of the females, then make sure the forage base is abundant in many different sizes and you'll end up with a pond that you can routinely catch 4-7lb bass. No genetics were changed, just removed certain classes of fish and made sure nutrition was right. No amount of nutrition would fix a pond that is over-populated with stunted fish. The right fish have to be taken out, the right fish have to be left.

The example given earlier of average buck weights having gone up after adding protein is a good example. And of course Baker has the nutrition and age thing down to an art.

If someone shot every 8pt on their place they obviously wouldn't have any 8 pointers on their place. Would they get replaced with 10's? I don't know... but they wouldn't have any 8's and that would certainly change what bucks survived to maturity. I was just curious if anyone has tried something like this and seen results.

 

[T-Max]

For me, and this is pretty unique to my area, several of us neighbors all work to improve the deer hunting. The lone exception is the outfitter next to me. I think what I did with my food situation has made the biggest impact in just a couple years. By taking our place from essentially 0 food to almost unlimited food, I keep the deer from needing to enter that property until after dark if ever. That has undoubtedly saved many lives. Of course the rut still brings a few over the fence in daylight, but I have minimized it substantially. Now when we pass a superstar 3 year old, there is a good chance we will see him again at 4. I think some of the pics I share show how that has led to some awful nice deer here. I’m not even sure if the other neighbors know I did it.


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[BenAllgood]

Thanks for all the replies, it's a good read!

My intent in the original question was never about changing herd genetics. I was more curious about has anyone done something (anything) that changed the size of the mature bucks on your place. Back to the bass pond idea... A pond may have a never ending supply of 1/2 pound bass in it with zero fish reaching 1lb. Start removing every male you catch, leave the top 10% of the females, then make sure the forage base is abundant in many different sizes and you'll end up with a pond that you can routinely catch 4-7lb bass. No genetics were changed, just removed certain classes of fish and made sure nutrition was right. No amount of nutrition would fix a pond that is over-populated with stunted fish. The right fish have to be taken out, the right fish have to be left.

The example given earlier of average buck weights having gone up after adding protein is a good example. And of course Baker has the nutrition and age thing down to an art.

If someone shot every 8pt on their place they obviously wouldn't have any 8 pointers on their place. Would they get replaced with 10's? I don't know... but they wouldn't have any 8's and that would certainly change what bucks survived to maturity. I was just curious if anyone has tried something like this and seen results.

That's what the book is about I posted earlier in this thread. The authors are well aware that genetics can't be changed, but they have a technique like you describe to take out the lesser quality mature bucks to give the better quality mature bucks more resources. In my scenario, I can't do what they're describing. My scenario would be like using your description of fish in the pond but in a large lake, making a section of it off limits to anyone but me and my guests. I just don't think it would work since those fish can come and go to the other parts of the lake.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

And bad logging practices. I see areas that get cut and the Regen is all invasives.

Yes!!!! ^ ^ ^ ^

Loggin itself is a good thing for forest regeneration and better habitat, but logging without treating for invasives is counterproductive - in lots of ways. I talked in person with a Pa. State Forester who mentioned a couple clearcuts (near our camp) that they considered "failed" clearcuts. Barberry had overtaken those clearcuts along with ferns, so the state sprayed them, and bulldozed / tore up with a dozer hook to start new regeneration in those cuts. I used to hunt those very same clearcuts and the word "failed" is accurate. The young seedlings and saplings that sprang up right after logging were overtaken by ferns, & barberry. After several years, those clearcuts were entirely ferns and barberry, with only a few younger trees surviving over 200 to 300 acres. Pitiful sight.

Here in the Pa. mountains, the common "invaders" of logged areas are - striped maple, tree-of-heaven (TOH), barberry, and ferns. All of those will outcompete desirable native hardwoods like the oaks, sugar & red maples, hickories, black cherry, tulip poplar, and some birches.

EDIT: Speaking for myself, since AR here in Pa., and seemingly a few more hunters letting younger bucks walk, I've seen an increase in mature bucks with bigger bodies & bigger racks. Don't know how that can change a local herd's genetics, but there are more mature bucks walking around than 40 years ago .... even 20 years ago.

 

[Catscratch]

For me, and this is pretty unique to my area, several of us neighbors all work to improve the deer hunting. The lone exception is the outfitter next to me. I think what I did with my food situation has made the biggest impact in just a couple years. By taking our place from essentially 0 food to almost unlimited food, I keep the deer from needing to enter that property until after dark if ever. That has undoubtedly saved many lives. Of course the rut still brings a few over the fence in daylight, but I have minimized it substantially. Now when we pass a superstar 3 year old, there is a good chance we will see him again at 4. I think some of the pics I share show how that has led to some awful nice deer here. I’m not even sure if the other neighbors know I did it.


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Curious, would you summarize what you did to get unlimited food.

 

[Catscratch]

Yes!!!! ^ ^ ^ ^

Loggin itself is a good thing for forest regeneration and better habitat, but logging without treating for invasives is counterproductive - in lots of ways. I talked in person with a Pa. State Forester who mentioned a couple clearcuts (near our camp) that they considered "failed" clearcuts. Barberry had overtaken those clearcuts along with ferns, so the state sprayed them, and bulldozed / tore up with a dozer hook to start new regeneration in those cuts. I used to hunt those very same clearcuts and the word "failed" is accurate. The young seedlings and saplings that sprang up right after logging were overtaken by ferns, & barberry. After several years, those clearcuts were entirely ferns and barberry, with only a few younger trees surviving over 200 to 300 acres. Pitiful sight.

Here in the Pa. mountains, the common "invaders" of logged areas are - striped maple, tree-of-heaven (TOH), barberry, and ferns. All of those will outcompete desirable native hardwoods like the oaks, sugar & red maples, hickories, black cherry, tulip poplar, and some birches.

The book is in my shopping cart. Probably will wait until there is something else I need to order to hit the go button. I like to read info, might use it or might not. Thanks!

 

[Native Hunter]

I keep passing young bucks with great potential. Sometimes it works, and I see them back the next year - other times they get killed. Except for a few food plots and small orchards, my whole 100 acre place is solid cover. Most of my 20 acre places is cover as well, except that it does have a small 6 acre soybean field. If I could reasonably do anything else to up my chances for older bucks, I would do it, but I am out of ideas.

 

[jsasker007]

Baker is the man to ask about big bucks. He passes on deer that are bigger than anything I've ever seen hunting.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

Baker is the man to ask about big bucks. He passes on deer that are bigger than anything I've ever seen hunting.

Man knows his stuff, a high fence helps the confidence in passing bucks though. Apples to oranges

 

[Bowsnbucks]

The book is in my shopping cart. Probably will wait until there is something else I need to order to hit the go button. I like to read info, might use it or might not. Thanks!

Cat -

I think BenAllgood was the one who posted about the book. Wasn't me. Have a good one, Cat!

 

[Catscratch]

Man knows his stuff, a high fence helps the confidence in passing bucks though. Apples to oranges

He also has a low fence ranch in Mexico that has amazing animals on it.

 

[Catscratch]

Cat -

I think BenAllgood was the one who posted about the book. Wasn't me. Have a good one, Cat!

Holy crap! I don't even know how I quoted you instead of him. I'm trying to do about a thousand things at once so maybe that's a thing.