Don Higgins blend or CIR Switch

[mtholton]

I've got a couple of orders of RC ready to plant this spring into what was beans last year... I've had 100% success with three Cave in the Rock plantings using a similar setup. I frost seeded, then sprayed glyphosate a couple of times until soil temps were just before the published germination temp. Clean stands that surprised me every-time with quality and how quickly they established by the end of the first year... Why does John comment on not use glyphosate with this variety? Is that because it germinates sooner and its risky you will kill it off easier? While some can Germinate below 50 degrees, is that like 2% of it? Meaning I'd still be better off killing off all the weeds and losing 2% of the germinated switch? As such, I'm going to stick to just doing Simazine and hope for the best..

 

[Brian662]

I've got a couple of orders of RC ready to plant this spring into what was beans last year... I've had 100% success with three Cave in the Rock plantings using a similar setup. I frost seeded, then sprayed glyphosate a couple of times until soil temps were just before the published germination temp. Clean stands that surprised me every-time with quality and how quickly they established by the end of the first year... Why does John comment on not use glyphosate with this variety? Is that because it germinates sooner and its risky you will kill it off easier? While some can Germinate below 50 degrees, is that like 2% of it? Meaning I'd still be better off killing off all the weeds and losing 2% of the germinated switch? As such, I'm going to stick to just doing Simazine and hope for the best..

The old method you used has been called into question with the new "improved" varieties of RC switchgrass. I tried drilling and waiting a week or two last year to spray gly and I'm fairly certain I killed off my new plantings in some areas that had seen moisture. This spring will be the test, if it fills in or not, but I'm not too optimistic.
I've established 15 acres or so of cave in rock prior and always sprayed gly about 2 weeks after seeding without problem.

 

[Mattyq2402]

Curious what you guys think about Dons deer bedding in switch observations. Specifically mature deer. I'm in rolling hill ground and have 6 acres I am looking to run switch in, its large open field with sloppy hunting neighbor to the east woods. I'm trying to give the deer a safe sanctuary. I'm wondering if Don's observations of bucks bedding in the switch is real or sales...

 

[omicron1792]

Real. I don’t like monoculture switch though. I plant it lightly (2-3lbs/acre) with other native grasses. Then I come back and add forbs or lightly disc on rotation to let other things come in for diversity.

Best deer bedding in world is new clear cut area. That’s what I try to replicate, with all native species.

 

[Brian662]

Curious what you guys think about Dons deer bedding in switch observations. Specifically mature deer. I'm in rolling hill ground and have 6 acres I am looking to run switch in, its large open field with sloppy hunting neighbor to the east woods. I'm trying to give the deer a safe sanctuary. I'm wondering if Don's observations of bucks bedding in the switch is real or sales...

Where are you located? What's in the field now? Plenty of options with open ground. 6 acres of straight switch would be near the bottom of the list of things I would do personally.

I might plant 3 acres of switch in strips or pockets and let early succession/plantings/forbs take care of the rest. The pockets would be numerous, linear, with lots of edge but no bigger than 1/4 acre per pocket.

 

[omicron1792]

Often people ask here about native grasses. Here is a field I’m adding native grass and forbs around.

I sprayed with 2quarts/acre glyphosate and 8oz/acre imazapic 1 week ago, and drilled grass mix (little and big bluestem, Indiangrass, switch) at 7lbs/acre yesterday. This fall I will broadcast native forb mix that’s imazapic tolerant then respray next spring.

Long term maintenance will be to burn every couple of years, and disc occasionally.

 

[Mattyq2402]

Where are you located? What's in the field now? Plenty of options with open ground. 6 acres of straight switch would be near the bottom of the list of things I would do personally.

I might plant 3 acres of switch in strips or pockets and let early succession/plantings/forbs take care of the rest. The pockets would be numerous, linear, with lots of edge but no bigger than 1/4 acre per pocket.

It's been a hay field for 30 years. I'm planning on planting the north 5 acres. Far right section is what I'm looking at, orange. Neighbor to the top/east is sloppy, im unable to plant actual structure per family so that's why I was looking at grasses. Putting corn, beans, and greens on the right section. Lots of big deer close by and no one plants food locally. This will be first year on this farm for me.

 

[Mattyq2402]

It's been a hay field for 30 years. I'm planning on planting the north 5 acres. Far right section is what I'm looking at, orange. Neighbor to the top/east is sloppy, im unable to plant actual structure per family so that's why I was looking at grasses. Putting corn, beans, and greens on the right section. Lots of big deer close by and no one plants food locally. This will be first year on this farm for me.View attachment 51477

Sorry, corn beans, greens, and fruit on left section. Se Ohio property

 

[Brian662]

It's been a hay field for 30 years. I'm planning on planting the north 5 acres. Far right section is what I'm looking at, orange. Neighbor to the top/east is sloppy, im unable to plant actual structure per family so that's why I was looking at grasses. Putting corn, beans, and greens on the right section. Lots of big deer close by and no one plants food locally. This will be first year on this farm for me.View attachment 51477

In my opinion, if you can't plant anything that's fine. I still wouldn't plant pure switch or just a mixture of grasses. If you kill off the hay there will be weeds/forbs that come in whether already in the seed bed or blow in from somewhere.

SE Ohio, switch or other native grasses should stand all year without the threat of heavy snow. It will be a very nice sanctuary for deer if you do it right, but you need the diversity (non-grasses) to make it as attractive as it can be.

 

[Mattyq2402]

Is there a preferred company to purchase Kanlow from? Anyone had success with it? I'm interested, o was leaning toward Don's stuff but also like the idea of better pricing

 

[Brian662]

I haven't looked in a while but Ernst seeds used to have a wide variety of switch seeds. I believe they're out of PA.

 

[Brian662]

FYI, the strain of switch in Real World's "bedding in a bag" is rumored to be Alamo. I'm sure you can find it and save yourself over $5/lb doing it that way, if you really want to have the RW variety.

Myself, I'd go with the new RC stuff.

 

[Hoytvectrix]

I have planted Kanlow from Johnston Seed Co. Stock Seed Farms inc is who originally grew the seed. I would definitely recommend Kanlow if you have a lowland site or an area that has higher moisture content. I planted 2 years ago and the seedheads are about 5-6 ft currently (and still standing upright in Northern MO in April) Sounds like Alamo would work better on south facing slopes or drier areas in general.

Here is the description for Alamo:
"Alamo was originally collected in far south-central Texas on the banks of the Frio River near George West. The Plant Materials Center near Knox City, Texas selected and released Alamo as an improved variety based on superior forage yield, seed production, and improved seedling vigor. Alamo is primarily adapted to regions south of I-70 which intersects Kansas east to west. Alamo performs best in areas of 25 inches of annual precipitation or when planted in low lying areas in arid climates. Alamo, with good moisture and soil fertility, can reach heights up to 10 feet and produce in excess in of 7 tons of biomass annually. Alamo performs well on a wide range of soils from clay to very fine sand. Recommended seeding rates range from 4 to 6 Pure Live Seed pounds per acre."

Here is the description for Kanlow:
"‘Kanlow’ was developed and released by the Kansas Agricultural Experiment Station and Crops Research Division, ARS/USDA. Germplasm used in the development of ‘Kanlow’ was collected near Wetunka, OK in 1957. ‘Kanlow’ is well-adapted to wetland situations and tolerates inundation for extended periods of time. ‘Kanlow’ produces substantial dry matter by reaching heights to over 8 feet, very coarse stems and very leafy. ‘Kanlow’ is well adapted to a large region of central U.S. and although performs best on lowland soils, it persists and produces on marginal upland soils also. ‘Kanlow’ flowers earlier than both ‘Alamo’ and ‘Cimarron’ but is approximately two weeks later than ‘Caddo’, an upland type."

I'm a little nervous about believing marketing materials from any company, and this is especially true on newer varieties like RC Big Rock switchgrass.

 

[omicron1792]

I have planted Kanlow from Johnston Seed Co. Stock Seed Farms inc is who originally grew the seed. I would definitely recommend Kanlow if you have a lowland site or an area that has higher moisture content. I planted 2 years ago and the seedheads are about 5-6 ft currently (and still standing upright in Northern MO in April) Sounds like Alamo would work better on south facing slopes or drier areas in general.

Here is the description for Alamo:
"Alamo was originally collected in far south-central Texas on the banks of the Frio River near George West. The Plant Materials Center near Knox City, Texas selected and released Alamo as an improved variety based on superior forage yield, seed production, and improved seedling vigor. Alamo is primarily adapted to regions south of I-70 which intersects Kansas east to west. Alamo performs best in areas of 25 inches of annual precipitation or when planted in low lying areas in arid climates. Alamo, with good moisture and soil fertility, can reach heights up to 10 feet and produce in excess in of 7 tons of biomass annually. Alamo performs well on a wide range of soils from clay to very fine sand. Recommended seeding rates range from 4 to 6 Pure Live Seed pounds per acre."

Here is the description for Kanlow:
"‘Kanlow’ was developed and released by the Kansas Agricultural Experiment Station and Crops Research Division, ARS/USDA. Germplasm used in the development of ‘Kanlow’ was collected near Wetunka, OK in 1957. ‘Kanlow’ is well-adapted to wetland situations and tolerates inundation for extended periods of time. ‘Kanlow’ produces substantial dry matter by reaching heights to over 8 feet, very coarse stems and very leafy. ‘Kanlow’ is well adapted to a large region of central U.S. and although performs best on lowland soils, it persists and produces on marginal upland soils also. ‘Kanlow’ flowers earlier than both ‘Alamo’ and ‘Cimarron’ but is approximately two weeks later than ‘Caddo’, an upland type."

I'm a little nervous about believing marketing materials from any company, and this is especially true on newer varieties like RC Big Rock switchgrass.

Although I agree to an extent, they most likely will have the same traits as the strain they came from AT WORST. At best they will have the new traits they describe.

So not a big risk for a few dollars more IMO.

 

[Hoytvectrix]

Although I agree to an extent, they most likely will have the same traits as the strain they came from AT WORST. At best they will have the new traits they describe.

So not a big risk for a few dollars more IMO.

One of the biggest complaints about Cave in Rock is that it is too short. RC comes from Cave in Rock and the marketing materials say it only grows up to 7 ft. Why not plant something that has been around decades and is known to get taller than 7?

Let other people be the guinea pigs. This very thread was started to shed light on what people like Don Higgins are really marketing. No one really knows what RC is like because it has only been out for a year.

 

[omicron1792]

One of the biggest complaints about Cave in Rock is that it is too short. RC comes from Cave in Rock and the marketing materials say it only grows up to 7 ft. Why not plant something that has been around decades and is known to get taller than 7?

Let other people be the guinea pigs. This very thread was started to shed light on what people like Don Higgins are really marketing. No one really knows what RC is like because it has only been out for a year.

It is an upland strain that is known to grow well in northern climates. There have been low land varieties that do well and get very tall for years. It’s my understanding that this is an upland strain that does get tall. It is more Hardy and quick to germinate.

Your point on marketing is still valid.

 

[Turkey Creek]

I am back working in academia and am in some grass breeding circles. I have also worked in the private ag industry. Real World is just not a big enough company to have created all of these commercially available cultivars across multiple species. First of all, traditional plant breeding takes almost a decade to breed and produce seed that is commercially viable for a single cultivar of a single species. If they were truly breeding their own, they would need to show that it is different (data), file a plant protection patent, and trademark the name. As far as I can tell, they haven't done any of these things. I would not be at all surprised if the RW switchgrass wasn't just Kanlow among a few other already commercially available cultivars.

I understand he needs to put his own spin on all of the products he and his company peddle. For the most part, the ones I've seen do seem like decent products. But the sales pitches were old the first time I heard them.

I totally agree with that statement. I have no doubt his products work, but the constant need to make everyone believe he is the sole inventor of everything he sells is truck load of crap. I tried listening to his podcast and all it is for the most part is an infomercial.

 

[Brian662]

One of the biggest complaints about Cave in Rock is that it is too short. RC comes from Cave in Rock and the marketing materials say it only grows up to 7 ft. Why not plant something that has been around decades and is known to get taller than 7?

Let other people be the guinea pigs. This very thread was started to shed light on what people like Don Higgins are really marketing. No one really knows what RC is like because it has only been out for a year.

I have lots of acres of CIR, it averages 5.5' in my soils. Some areas are 7' and some are 4', not much different than anything in that regard.
The problem with other varieties in my climate of SE MN is they can even be more hit and miss than CIR.

I chose to buy 50 lb of RC Bigrock because although it's been on the market for only two years, it was proven hardy in Canada where they created the strain. Having been through a year of growth, it has been what was advertised so far. Very vigorous first year growth. I planted mid June and out of habit I mowed the first year but experienced booming growth comparable to CIR first year growth. We'll see what the second year results hold, I plan to spray with atrazine when the snow melts and then let it go. I'll be happy to report the results later this year, but I expect at least 6' in most areas which would have never been the case for 2nd year CIR.

 

[Brian662]

BTW, I appreciate the insight and informative conversation on the topic from everybody.

One thing so unique about our experiences are the different regions we come from and the different challenges that can create.

 

[Mortenson]

I've been trying to develop an easy access, low impact spot the past few years. It was mostly intended for getting our does at, without having to put extra harvest pressure on the interior. Turns out bucks like the location of the plot also. Deer can filter in from an untouched piece of sanctuary woods of ours, but can also choose to filter in from a bit of cover belonging to the neighbors. I'd like to keep as many on ours as possible, and putting in another acre of switch will help I think. It's a travel corridor. I'll take 1 acre out of ag production to accomplish this. I ordered 10 lbs of RC Big Rock. Starting to wonder if it'd be a little safer to cut the rate and add a little of something else. In looking at Ernst, it seems maybe Kanlow is going by the wayside, and they mention 3 or 4 others that "replace" Kanlow. Has anyone tried any of these? Independence, Liberty, Timber are 3 of them. I know a few have questioned the RC lineup, not having many years of observation behind them yet. Or am I overthinking this, for just a small strip of travel corridor?