What is the mental dynamic involved

[Wind Gypsy]

I would bet that 95%+ care about antlers. It's just that how much varies wildly from "if two bucks are standing there I'll shoot the bigger one, otherwise don't really care" to "i'm going to spend the majority of my expendable income (or more) and time on finding, growing, and killing the biggest bucks possible".

 

[4wanderingeyes]

So far what I am seeing is, those of you who are trying to convince the rest that antlers are important, have lost interest, and dont get excited to shoot deer. That sounds like you are just bored with deer hunting.

If I see 2 deer, of course I am going to shoot the bigger one, if I shoot one of them. I dont think many will tell you they dont want to shoot a trophy buck every year, but I think it isnt important to them as shooting a deer every year. Lots of deer camps, and they like to take home some meat, and while there is some bragging rights about the bigger racks, there is belittling about not getting a deer as well. I like venison, and like to eat it. Having some venison pepper sticks, and summer sausage every year is a lot more important to me, then a rack that will get tossed out on the side of the shed. Traditions of families and friends getting together, shooting deer, and BS'ing about their hunts is what brings people to love the sport. Not hoarding, preventing, blocking your neighbors from shooting "your" deer before you are satisfied that it is old enough. Would it make you happier if your neighbor shot a 120" random buck, or your target 200" buck every year? Your honest answer would be neither, dont shoot deer by me, these are my deer to shoot when I think they are big enough.

 

[omicron1792]

So far what I am seeing is, those of you who are trying to convince the rest that antlers are important, have lost interest, and dont get excited to shoot deer. That sounds like you are just bored with deer hunting.

If I see 2 deer, of course I am going to shoot the bigger one, if I shoot one of them. I dont think many will tell you they dont want to shoot a trophy buck every year, but I think it isnt important to them as shooting a deer every year. Lots of deer camps, and they like to take home some meat, and while there is some bragging rights about the bigger racks, there is belittling about not getting a deer as well. I like venison, and like to eat it. Having some venison pepper sticks, and summer sausage every year is a lot more important to me, then a rack that will get tossed out on the side of the shed. Traditions of families and friends getting together, shooting deer, and BS'ing about their hunts is what brings people to love the sport. Not hoarding, preventing, blocking your neighbors from shooting "your" deer before you are satisfied that it is old enough. Would it make you happier if your neighbor shot a 120" random buck, or your target 200" buck every year? Your honest answer would be neither, dont shoot deer by me, these are my deer to shoot when I think they are big enough.

Calling a spade a spade…..the people saying don’t worry about antlers in this thread have had much more vitriol than the other side. Wonder why that is?

 

[Tree Spud]

I'll never understand the logic of the "never shoot a doe" crowd but are willing to shoot a spike or fork?

A balanced herd sex wise is critical to it's survival. If you have narrowed the buck population down to only young deer, because 2.5 & 3.5 year olds never get to maturity, you are eliminating bucks from the gene pool who develop genetic traits that improves their survivability. Bucks that can survive hunting pressure, disease, harsh weather conditions, rut stres, territorial fighting, etc. when allowed to reach maturity will pass those traits on in breeding.

Shooting a buck to save a doe is counter intuitive to a healthy herd.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

This thread made me think about some stuff. If I never visited a hunting forum, had a trail cam, read studies about deer progression and age class, listened to podcasts, etc - I'd be much more excited about shooting little bucks like I was when I first started. I find the shifting baseline for what excites me to be sad. BUT, I'd also be missing the whole journey of consuming information, trying to improve habitat, trying to constantly hone tactics, etc and all of that has magnitudes more meaning than the end result of what does and doesn't get killed. The Journey is the important part but it's important to not let what others do overshadow your own journey.

 

[4wanderingeyes]

Calling a spade a spade…..the people saying don’t worry about antlers in this thread have had much more vitriol than the other side. Wonder why that is?

Maybe from the main topic of the thread?

 

[PrairieShadow]

Interesting thread. I honestly expected a lot more on a site like this to be in the "big buck" crowd.

I personally fall into the "spend more than I should both financially and time wise on whitetails/ whitetail habitat. I just cannot get enough of it. I enjoy watching deer be deer as much or more than actually hunting. I'm to the point now where I'm fine with passing deer most would shoot. I love developing that relationship with certain animals from year to year. My archery deer was a 3 year relationship that was more bittersweet when it came to an end after 170+ hrs in the stand this year. It's a weird feeling to not just be happy when you get the buck you've been after for that long. I honestly felt a deep sadness that it was over. I'd never see that deer from the stand again, Never wake up to pictures of him again etc etc.

I do get a little upset when my neighbor shoots a 2.5yr 5x5 with tons of potential. Not only have I been watching that deer for at least a year, I know that they have never saw that deer before. They don't even know him! Just part of the game though as long as its legal.

 

[Troubles Trees]

Just because you don’t care about antlers, does not mean others should not.

Actually I do, that is why I let the little ones walk friend. I just don't think hunting is about antlers to most, it is about hunting, the friends you make and the meat it provides.
If Minnesota is about 50/50 for growing bigger bucks I would guess you guys probably have antler restrictions in place?

 

[Wind Gypsy]

Actually I do, that is why I let the little ones walk friend. I just don't think hunting is about antlers to most, it is about hunting, the friends you make and the meat it provides.
If Minnesota is about 50/50 for growing bigger bucks I would guess you guys probably have antler restrictions in place?

Ha, wouldn't that be something. The typical catch is in place - everyone wants better hunting but most only want it to improve through restricting someone else and not themselves.. We have OTC firearm hunting during the peak rut and then muzzleloaders (allowing smokeless powder, centerfire primers, scopes, etc) until december 12th. If any zone were to have antler restrictions put in place it wouldn't last for long as I doubt we'll have many parts of the state without a CWD positive test for much longer. Once a CWD positive pops up in an area, state management plan mandates more liberal harvest regs.

 

[yoderjac]

Let's be honest. If you hunt in a state with large deer populations, multiple buck tags and long firearms seasons that extend pre-rut thru post-rut, then you are, for the most part, hunting toddler and teenage bucks. 2.5 and 3.5 yr old bucks are walking dead. Very, very few hunters in the southeast ever encounter a fully mature, 6 or 7 yr old buck.

Every seasoned hunter would LOVE to kill a 6 yr old warrior. In my neck of the woods...ain't gonna happen for the most part.

Option I: Lower expectations.
Option II: Learn to enjoy the journey over the trophy.
Option III: Take up trad bow hunting and experience the thrill of killing within 15 yds.

Hardly ever do I raise my bow. Always hoping one of the boys, grandkids or invited guests kill something instead. But...when the urge comes to loose an arrow at any deer, doe, spike, forkie or older, the heart rate goes into overdrive and shakes always occur after the shot.

Exactly! I like the idea of targeting the top 10% of bucks in a QDM program. You have to be realistic given the state and locality. On our place, 3 1/2 + is the target. It is pretty easy for any hunter to recognize a 1 1/2 year old buck. It is also pretty easy for an experienced hunter to differentiae a 2 1/2 year old from older deer given sufficient time to look it over. Once you get beyond 2 1/2, I think it is difficult for most hunters to differentiate. Even jawbone reading accuracy drops significantly after 3 1/2.

In our area 3 1/2+ covers the top 10%. 90% of the bucks are younger. Given new hunters and kids which we encourage to take any deer they like, we harvest a pretty good mix of deer most years.

I think the other area where we need to adjust expectations in our area is doe harvest. For many years with high deer densities, hunting was the major factor in population control. As coyotes have re-established and become abundant in our area, fawn predation is becoming a significant factor. If we want to continue to harvest the same number of deer each year in the future, we will probably need to shoot a higher ratio of bucks. Or, if we want to continue to pass on young bucks, we may need to buy smaller freezers.

 

[bwoods11]

Actually I do, that is why I let the little ones walk friend. I just don't think hunting is about antlers to most, it is about hunting, the friends you make and the meat it provides.
If Minnesota is about 50/50 for growing bigger bucks I would guess you guys probably have antler restrictions in place?

They used to in SE Minnesota, and it was popular. Then CWD hit, and they ended it .

In my county , I’d guess it’s about 50/50. The young hunters really like the challenge of hunting bigger bucks. We are not talking 160-170 inch bucks … more like 3 year olds and up.

My sons graduating class has 10-12 guys that are now in the work force …die hard mature buck hunters. They hunt multiple states, and hunt antelope, elk, muleys … They are hooked and love to hunt . That’s a great thing. They take elk trips together!! How fun.

I guess I don’t see any downside to young hunters being addicted to hunting multiple species for above average racks. Except their wives might complain !!

Note…*I Never took an out of state big game hunting trip until I was 30, and I still have not elk hunted!

 

[yoderjac]

I would bet that 95%+ care about antlers. It's just that how much varies wildly from "if two bucks are standing there I'll shoot the bigger one, otherwise don't really care" to "i'm going to spend the majority of my expendable income (or more) and time on finding, growing, and killing the biggest bucks possible".

I don't think that is true at all. Antlers are a proxy for many things. In many cases they are a proxy for "challenge". There are many factors that go into challenge. For example, I've never shot any deer with a recurve or stick bow. If my competence with one ever gets high enough before I die and I actually hunt with one, ANY deer I shoot would be a much greater accomplishment for me than harvesting a B&C buck with a rifle.

Then we need to think about hunting for food. When I was growing up, that was an important factor. Shooting a deer represented a significant factor in the food budget for the winter. Over time, that hunting for food factor became more of an ethical "eat what your kill" thing for most folks. That is changing once again. As society is changing, there is more focus on eating healthy and locally. There are many folks I meet in my Hunter Education classes that are starting to hunt for food. They see it as a way to eat meat that did not come from "factory farms". Most of these folks don't care anything about antlers.

There are many reasons folks hunt and a variety of views on antlers. I don't think it is anywhere near 95%+ that care about antlers.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

I don't think that is true at all. Antlers are a proxy for many things. In many cases they are a proxy for "challenge". There are many factors that go into challenge. For example, I've never shot any deer with a recurve or stick bow. If my competence with one ever gets high enough before I die and I actually hunt with one, ANY deer I shoot would be a much greater accomplishment for me than harvesting a B&C buck with a rifle.

Then we need to think about hunting for food. When I was growing up, that was an important factor. Shooting a deer represented a significant factor in the food budget for the winter. Over time, that hunting for food factor became more of an ethical "eat what your kill" thing for most folks. That is changing once again. As society is changing, there is more focus on eating healthy and locally. There are many folks I meet in my Hunter Education classes that are starting to hunt for food. They see it as a way to eat meat that did not come from "factory farms". Most of these folks don't care anything about antlers.

There are many reasons folks hunt and a variety of views on antlers. I don't think it is anywhere near 95%+ that care about antlers.

They are also a proxy for proper wildlife and habitat management which should be our goal as hunters and land managers

 

[Catscratch]

Hunting is different for everyone. I have to think most people want big antlers if given a choice, but many are unwilling to do what it takes to get them.

I like to run and compete (used to anyway). I've known a lot or people who "want" to win. But... many of those same people are unwilling to put in 100 mile weeks or push to being truly uncomfortable during repeats to gain the fitness to win. I think a lot of hunters are the same. Most "want" to shoot a 180 class deer but are unwilling (in the moment) to pass a 150 (or a spike). No big deal, it's like running, shoot what you want and be happy with it. But like running, don't be surprised if you cramp-up at mile 18 after you failed to trained properly for the race.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

Hunting is different for everyone. I have to think most people want big antlers if given a choice, but many are unwilling to do what it takes to get them.

I like to run and compete (used to anyway). I've known a lot or people who "want" to win. But... many of those same people are unwilling to put in 100 mile weeks or push to being truly uncomfortable during repeats to gain the fitness to win. I think a lot of hunters are the same. Most "want" to shoot a 180 class deer but are unwilling (in the moment) to pass a 150 (or a spike). No big deal, it's like running, shoot what you want and be happy with it. But like running, don't be surprised if you cramp-up at mile 18 after you failed to trained properly for the race.

How do you run a 50 mile race through the mountains at night…don’t quit after 40 miles. How do you shoot a 6 year old buck…don’t shoot him at 3.

 

[PatinPA]

I'll never understand the logic of the "never shoot a doe" crowd but are willing to shoot a spike or fork?

A balanced herd sex wise is critical to it's survival. If you have narrowed the buck population down to only young deer, because 2.5 & 3.5 year olds never get to maturity, you are eliminating bucks from the gene pool who develop genetic traits that improves their survivability. Bucks that can survive hunting pressure, disease, harsh weather conditions, rut stres, territorial fighting, etc. when allowed to reach maturity will pass those traits on in breeding.

Shooting a buck to save a doe is counter intuitive to a healthy herd.

At my own property I will always shoot a doe over a small buck. My dad and I belong to a hunting club in WV and there I will shoot a small buck over a doe every time, just because of the herd size. This year I saw 1 fawn in a week of hunting. So many bear and coyotes, would love to know what the fawn survival rate is. It has to be really low.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

I don't think that is true at all. Antlers are a proxy for many things. In many cases they are a proxy for "challenge". There are many factors that go into challenge. For example, I've never shot any deer with a recurve or stick bow. If my competence with one ever gets high enough before I die and I actually hunt with one, ANY deer I shoot would be a much greater accomplishment for me than harvesting a B&C buck with a rifle.

Then we need to think about hunting for food. When I was growing up, that was an important factor. Shooting a deer represented a significant factor in the food budget for the winter. Over time, that hunting for food factor became more of an ethical "eat what your kill" thing for most folks. That is changing once again. As society is changing, there is more focus on eating healthy and locally. There are many folks I meet in my Hunter Education classes that are starting to hunt for food. They see it as a way to eat meat that did not come from "factory farms". Most of these folks don't care anything about antlers.

There are many reasons folks hunt and a variety of views on antlers. I don't think it is anywhere near 95%+ that care about antlers.

We disagree, but I won't count out the possibility you're right about the people you interact with. I personally have never interacted with a single hunter in real life who wouldn't find big antlers at least a novelty. That includes a bunch of casual folks who have never shot a deer.

Funny thing about deer meat not coming from factory farms. Instead of being grain fed beef, we can shoot free range GMO corn and bean fed deer from living off ground that is nuked with herbicides and pesticides annually. You don't think these new folks trying to get away from factory farms would find it interesting if they shot a buck with big antlers? Probably wouldn't even take a picture or take the antlers out of the woods?

Who sees a giant buck and doesn't take note of the antlers? A crazy New Jersey cat lady sees a 200" buck stroll through her back yard she's probably going to take note of it more than if a doe did. Rocky Mountain national park and the jackson WY elk refuge has famous named bulls that are famous (amongst a non-hunter majority) for their antlers. I've had a few occasions where non-hunting strangers inquired about purchasing antlers they saw in my pickup bed just while traveling home from western hunts or from a taxidermist. Antlers are cool and interesting to most people is all i'm saying.

 

[AtomApple]

Maybe from the main topic of the thread?

Ding ding ding.
like John Rambo said, “They drew first blood!”

 

[Tree Spud]

I agree with most of what people have written. But “most don’t care about antlers” isn’t correct where I live. People I know that hunt and aren’t active property managers, which makes up the vast majority of hunters I know, pretty much only care about antlers. They may kill a doe late in the season to fill a freezer, but every other hunt they do is for antlers. Hell, most love to say “the meat tastes better in a young buck than a doe.” A made up thing imo to justify killing young bucks.

Gun season just opened here. I have had zero pics sent to me by friends of does. I have had hundreds sent of bucks. Hell, a lot won’t even hunt till rut.

This place (this internet board), selects habitat managers that have a holistic view of deer, land, and wildlife. The vast vast vast majority of hunters hunt for antlers. Period.

I interact with or talk to 100's of deer hunters every year. I have never heard one say they do not care about antlers or size. They all dream of shooting a wall hanger... to many, that is what keeps their desire for hunting alive, creates bragging rights, stories told of the big one that got away or the story of the big one that hangs on the wall ... it is one of the key glues that keep a deer camp alive as it creates that mission, bond, whatever you want to call it. The big "one" is all relative to the size of the bucks in the area. Could be a 130" deer or a 160" deer.

 

[Bill Loser]

Calling a spade a spade…..the people saying don’t worry about antlers in this thread have had much more vitriol than the other side. Wonder why that is?

Maybe some only see vitriol because they only want everyone to do it their way. Everything else is just wrong, or worse...excuses.