What is the mental dynamic involved

[SwampCat]

To be honest, I probably got more excited and had more satisfaction from killing a spike forty years ago than I get now killing a 130” 10 pt. Back then, every time you saw or heard a deer coming, you felt like it might be a shooter - meaning a buck. On my place, we had three deer this year I considered shooters. Next door neighbor killed one, 153 1/2, my son killed one, 148 1/2 and the other has been a no show for a week now - and is probably in someone else’s freezer. I dont even feel compelled to hunt until something else shows up on camera. I almost hate what deer hunting has become with the emphasis on trophy antlers.

I would trade the big buck hunting and gladly go back to shooting spikes if our quail, rabbits, ducks, and turkeys all came back. I could to hunting today and possibly see 30 deer - does and young bucks - and while I enjoy seeing them - they dont excite me. Walking in on a pair of staunch pointers - that is exciting. A flock of mallards, circling the whole, you are on edge, pressed up against a tree, hoping this is the pass they commit and drop in. A beagle barking every step of the way headed your way, as you strain to catch a glimpse of the rabbit headed in front of him. A big gobbler, in full strut, gobbling at every sound and hung up just outside of shooting range. All those things are exciting to me - and happen frequently during a successful hunt (except turkeys) - and I dont get that with deer. And while I enjoy seeing deer, I had one exciting moment last year deer hunting - and probably went 30 times.

For me, the potential of a harvest increases the excitement. When I see a 90” 2 yr old buck, there is no excitement - I enjoy it - but it is not exciting.

I have killed one buck in the last three years. Yes, I got excited. I have killed hundreds of hogs in the last three years. I get excited every time I am edging a little closer to a group of hogs at night - holding my breath one of them doesnt see me - searching through the thermal trying to decide which one I am going to shoot first. I get excited every time I do that. I dont get excited every time I see a deer.

If we still had good quail, duck, turkey, and rabbit hunting - I would probably quit deer hunting other than to put a couple in the freezer.

 

[4wanderingeyes]

Not everyone cares about antlers. Not everyone has hunting property where big bucks are common. I have owned my land for close to 20 years, I may have seen 3 deer over 140, and I have only shot 4 bucks in them 20 years, the biggest maybe 120”. Mostly for the freezer. My land is in the big forest. No fields around, I am also a small land owner, in an area with a bunch of other small land owners. I also contend with wolves, and thanks to California judges, we can’t manage them here in Wisconsin. We have brutal winters with many weeks with -20 or colder. We can have 3 feet of snow on the ground, and we also have a lot of hunters. Mix all that together and we have not very many old deer.

Not everyone is blessed with a deer haven, or the money to buy one, we just make do with what we have available.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

Not everyone cares about antlers. Not everyone has hunting property where big bucks are common. I have owned my land for close to 20 years, I may have seen 3 deer over 140, and I have only shot 4 bucks in them 20 years, the biggest maybe 120”. Mostly for the freezer. My land is in the big forest. No fields around, I am also a small land owner, in an area with a bunch of other small land owners. I also contend with wolves, and thanks to California judges, we can’t manage them here in Wisconsin. We have brutal winters with many weeks with -20 or colder. We can have 3 feet of snow on the ground, and we also have a lot of hunters. Mix all that together and we have not very many old deer.

Not everyone is blessed with a deer haven, or the money to buy one, we just make do with what we have available.

I totally get that. And just to play devils advocate none of that matters if the mindset was different. Bucks would get mature if they didn’t get shot young. I’m not saying they all have to be 170, i just think hunting would be more exciting if we saw 4, 5, 6 year olds instead of 1 and 2 year olds. That has nothing to do with land size and everything to do with decisions. But obviously im in the minority with that line of thinking so that’s fine. It’s just odd to me that big bucks move the meter (for the majority of deer hunters) yet people don’t actually possess the one requirement to get them there!!

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

To be honest, I probably got more excited and had more satisfaction from killing a spike forty years ago than I get now killing a 130” 10 pt. Back then, every time you saw or heard a deer coming, you felt like it might be a shooter - meaning a buck. On my place, we had three deer this year I considered shooters. Next door neighbor killed one, 153 1/2, my son killed one, 148 1/2 and the other has been a no show for a week now - and is probably in someone else’s freezer. I dont even feel compelled to hunt until something else shows up on camera. I almost hate what deer hunting has become with the emphasis on trophy antlers.

I would trade the big buck hunting and gladly go back to shooting spikes if our quail, rabbits, ducks, and turkeys all came back. I could to hunting today and possibly see 30 deer - does and young bucks - and while I enjoy seeing them - they dont excite me. Walking in on a pair of staunch pointers - that is exciting. A flock of mallards, circling the whole, you are on edge, pressed up against a tree, hoping this is the pass they commit and drop in. A beagle barking every step of the way headed your way, as you strain to catch a glimpse of the rabbit headed in front of him. A big gobbler, in full strut, gobbling at every sound and hung up just outside of shooting range. All those things are exciting to me - and happen frequently during a successful hunt (except turkeys) - and I dont get that with deer. And while I enjoy seeing deer, I had one exciting moment last year deer hunting - and probably went 30 times.

For me, the potential of a harvest increases the excitement. When I see a 90” 2 yr old buck, there is no excitement - I enjoy it - but it is not exciting.

I have killed one buck in the last three years. Yes, I got excited. I have killed hundreds of hogs in the last three years. I get excited every time I am edging a little closer to a group of hogs at night - holding my breath one of them doesnt see me - searching through the thermal trying to decide which one I am going to shoot first. I get excited every time I do that. I dont get excited every time I see a deer.

If we still had good quail, duck, turkey, and rabbit hunting - I would probably quit deer hunting other than to put a couple in the freezer.

Getting excited is something I find myself struggling with. I might grab for my bow once or twice a season and usually they are false alarms. Now I find myself scared as hell that young deer is going to get shot instead of enjoying watching it and thinking about what it may become. I don’t have a wall of booners but I just can’t get shakey knees about a 3 year old 130 anymore and trust me they aren’t a dime a dozen either. It’s just that I know he is still a puppy who is prone to make a ton of mistakes in a season and killing him is not matching wits with the best the landscape has to offer.

 

[Bill Loser]

Getting excited is something I find myself struggling with. I might grab for my bow once or twice a season and usually they are false alarms. Now I find myself scared as hell that young deer is going to get shot instead of enjoying watching it and thinking about what it may become. I don’t have a wall of booners but I just can’t get shakey knees about a 3 year old 130 anymore and trust me they aren’t a dime a dozen either. It’s just that I know he is still a puppy who is prone to make a ton of mistakes in a season and killing him is not matching wits with the best the landscape has to offer.

Thats the problem as i see it. Some are more worried about someone shooting "their" deer less worried about just enjoying themselves. I have zero issues with anyone who wants to pass on deer, any deer. What i have an issue with is the thinking that if i pass on it you have to too. I hunt because i enjoy it, i tried to do the let em go so they can grow thing and it became more work than play. Always worried about someone shooting "my " deer. To me its dumb, who cares who shoots what? There will be more deer , there will be a big buck or 2 around for whoever wants to wait for em. Why cant everyone just be happy with doing what they want and let everyone else do what they want?

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

Thats the problem as i see it. Some are more worried about someone shooting "their" deer less worried about just enjoying themselves. I have zero issues with anyone who wants to pass on deer, any deer. What i have an issue with is the thinking that if i pass on it you have to too. I hunt because i enjoy it, i tried to do the let em go so they can grow thing and it became more work than play. Always worried about someone shooting "my " deer. To me its dumb, who cares who shoots what? There will be more deer , there will be a big buck or 2 around for whoever wants to wait for em. Why cant everyone just be happy with doing what they want and let everyone else do what they want?

Why can’t you be happy with me wanting to protect young deer? It’s always the accept me shooting small buck guy who is screaming from the rooftops to just be happy for them. Almost like a justification tactic…can you imagine if someone went around telling all their neighbors to be respect their happiness and only shoot deer they saw fit?
I’m not pushing my neighbors to do anything. I can’t. I congratulated them on their deer. Even sent them trail cam pics of them. Doesn’t mean I have to like it or wish it was different.

 

[4wanderingeyes]

I have personally passed on many young bucks, I usually take a doe, and the bucks dont get bigger, they haven’t in 20 years. So should I just never consider ever shooting a buck because they aren’t big enough for “your” standards?

I have shot smaller bucks, but is is far from the norm. I dont care really. But like I said, I shot like 4 bucks in 20 years, should I just never shoot a buck to please others?

I personally don’t worry what others shoot, as long as it’s legal. I am happy and content with some meat in the freezer. If I shot a huge buck, I wouldn’t mount it anyhow, and would end up laying outside.

If Everyone owned a few hundred acres, and big bucks were able to be raised, I think everyone would choose more carefully. But people don’t have the luxury. I came from an area no tag for does for 20 years, so you shot any buck that had 3” or bigger just to get a deer, and you were lucky to get one every few years.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

I have personally passed on many young bucks, I usually take a doe, and the bucks dont get bigger, they haven’t in 20 years. So should I just never consider ever shooting a buck because they aren’t big enough for “your” standards?

I have shot smaller bucks, but is is far from the norm. I dont care really. But like I said, I shot like 4 bucks in 20 years, should I just never shoot a buck to please others?

I personally don’t worry what others shoot, as long as it’s legal. I am happy and content with some meat in the freezer. If I shot a huge buck, I wouldn’t mount it anyhow, and would end up laying outside.

If Everyone owned a few hundred acres, and big bucks were able to be raised, I think everyone would choose more carefully. But people don’t have the luxury. I came from an area no tag for does for 20 years, so you shot any buck that had 3” or bigger just to get a deer, and you were lucky to get one every few years.

I feel like there is some regional differences in hunting. The north woods is a different beast. Harsh landscape, harsh climate contribute to inherently tough hunting and low deer numbers. I have a midsouth/midwest bias. Way different ballgame. Hunting here is easy relatively speaking. So it’s not a challenge to fill a tag. I think that is where my confusion lies, especially when you travel 5-8 hours, spend a couple grand minimum, to go hunt in a good area of the world and you shoot something you can shoot 30 minutes from your house.
You northwood guys are hunting a unicorn compared to the “luxuries” of this part of the world.

 

[4wanderingeyes]

As we speak I have a spike buck bedded 20 feet from my stand, I could throw a snowball at him. He is safe from me. He will have to get up soon because I have chores to do so I will have to chase him away.

I had 6 smaller does and fawns in my orchard for a couple hours this morning, I watched them all walk off. To me weight and size means more then the points on his head. But to each their own.

 

[SwampCat]

Getting excited is something I find myself struggling with. I might grab for my bow once or twice a season and usually they are false alarms. Now I find myself scared as hell that young deer is going to get shot instead of enjoying watching it and thinking about what it may become. I don’t have a wall of booners but I just can’t get shakey knees about a 3 year old 130 anymore and trust me they aren’t a dime a dozen either. It’s just that I know he is still a puppy who is prone to make a ton of mistakes in a season and killing him is not matching wits with the best the landscape has to offer.

I understand that perfectly. That is right where I was a few years ago. The biggest part of my management plan was centered around keeping deer on my place - in an effort to keep others from shooting them. I am mellowing some in my old age. I used to do nothing but bowhunt. Now I hunt with a rifle much more often. Rifle hunting, I set up in an area I can see farther - I see more deer, more chasing, fighting, breeding, coyotes, hogs - everything. I have come to enjoy that much more than a typical bow stand where I might only see forty yards and I am focused on one or two trails. Age has changed my perspective.

 

[SwampCat]

I feel like there is some regional differences in hunting. The north woods is a different beast. Harsh landscape, harsh climate contribute to inherently tough hunting and low deer numbers. I have a midsouth/midwest bias. Way different ballgame. Hunting here is easy relatively speaking. So it’s not a challenge to fill a tag. I think that is where my confusion lies, especially when you travel 5-8 hours, spend a couple grand minimum, to go hunt in a good area of the world and you shoot something you can shoot 30 minutes from your house.
You northwood guys are hunting a unicorn compared to the “luxuries” of this part of the world.

No doubt, as deer density increases, usually, so do the restraints a hunter puts on himself. I could probably kill fifteen deer today on my own place with my rifle. And I am not sure I shouldnt do it based on deer density. However, when my wife and I decide we need a couple deer for the freezer, we go to another piece of property I own - that backs up to public - and deer density is much lower - to the point you stand a chance of not seeing a deer. I cant really get past folks talking about does like they are a walking tenderloin - “oh, if you want some meat, just shoot a doe” - like they are a completely different species of animal. Last year, my wife and I hunted a couple of days on my other property - with full intentions of killing a couple of does for the freezer - and did not see one. I could have killed one at home without leaving the yard, but just cant make myself shoot a doe without actually hunting for it. I refuse to relegate a doe to being a meat source. They are the key to the herd.

A deer hunter can be a strange creature. We have a lot of different perspectives - based upon our hunting upbringing, deer density, antler quality, land availability, weapon choice, etc. Each to his own, I guess.

 

[4wanderingeyes]

I could easily hunt off my deck, but that isn’t hunting.

 

[Bill Loser]

Why can’t you be happy with me wanting to protect young deer? It’s always the accept me shooting small buck guy who is screaming from the rooftops to just be happy for me. Almost like a compensation tactic…
I’m not pushing my neighbors to do anything. I can’t. I congratulated them on their deer.

As i said, I don't pass judgement on you for passing deer that's your choice, if it makes you happy, do it. I don't mean to sound argumentative at all. Not trying to change your mind at all. I just point out that to some hunter's horns don't mean much. Thats not to say I have never passed on bucks. I did just this year, for no other reason than I just didn't feel like shooting. The problem i have is when people start talking the "I passed it and the neighbor shot my deer " talk. Everyone has the right to shoot any legal deer, their choice

 

[yoderjac]

As i said, I don't pass judgement on you for passing deer that's your choice, if it makes you happy, do it. I don't mean to sound argumentative at all. Not trying to change your mind at all. I just point out that to some hunter's horns don't mean much. Thats not to say I have never passed on bucks. I did just this year, for no other reason than I just didn't feel like shooting. The problem i have is when people start talking the "I passed it and the neighbor shot my deer " talk. Everyone has the right to shoot any legal deer, their choice

That talk generally comes from folks who don't understand scale or are ignoring it when it comes to QDM. When one first acquires a property, it is important to establish realistic objectives. When you are trying to do QDM and don't have sufficient scale, frustration sets in quickly. It is much easier to say "my neighbor is shooting my deer" than it is to accept that I have insufficient scale to do QDM. I would guess that a quite large percentage of folks who claim to be doing QDM are fooling themselves.

The ironic thing I hear a lot and really think is funny is when guys claim to be doing QDM, get frustrated because it isn't working as expected, and then shoot a non-target buck and say "I was culling a management buck". This really amuses me.

The same guy could look at his property realistically, conclude there is insufficient scale for QDM, do habitat management to improve hunting, and shoot the same buck. He would just see it as a decent buck for his area and shot it because he wanted to rather than fooling himself into thinking he was improving the herd.

The bottom line is this: As long as someone is happy with what they are doing in managing and hunting their property, who am I to say they are doing it wrong?

Thanks,

Jack

 

[AtomApple]

I totally get that. And just to play devils advocate none of that matters if the mindset was different. Bucks would get mature if they didn’t get shot young. I’m not saying they all have to be 170, i just think hunting would be more exciting if we saw 4, 5, 6 year olds instead of 1 and 2 year olds. That has nothing to do with land size and everything to do with decisions. But obviously im in the minority with that line of thinking so that’s fine. It’s just odd to me that big bucks move the meter (for the majority of deer hunters) yet people don’t actually possess the one requirement to get them there!!

I think the point you missed is that some bucks don’t get mature, even if passed. Harsh winters, large snow packs, late springs, wolf predation, etc, on and on, can kill bucks that expend too much energy trying to breed.

I pass small deer early on, but my Ultimate GOAL, is to get “a deer” every year. Back straps and deer sticks are the deal! And the burger, steaks, jerky, roast ain’t bad either.

As the season goes on, it only gets colder up here. I’m talking below zero. What some call a cold front in Kentucky, we call “t-shirt weather” lol, I’m half joking here !

so to answer your other question, why not a doe? Idk, if a nice doe walks by, I’d have no problem with taking one. But I think we are being conditioned to hunt bucks, and I set up different to Hunt bucks vs. hunt does. TBH, I’m probably spooking does, as I’m setting up to hunt bucks that might travel by to check the does.
I’d also say I’m fairly new to hunting, only 11 years. I’ve shot 3 does and 6 bucks. 2 of the does I shot were because I patterned them from bed to food, and was actually targeting a doe.

 

[Bill]

I’m blessed to be able to go after some pretty old deer in this neck of the woods. But we still have those around that shoot basket racks. That used to bother me. I came to realize it’s a lot more enjoyable to accept the fact that self control is the only control you have. I’ve gone as long as 3 years straight with tag soup and a lot of video of bucks that probably didn’t make it. But that was my choice, that’s all I can do, control myself.

 

[omicron1792]

No doubt, as deer density increases, usually, so do the restraints a hunter puts on himself. I could probably kill fifteen deer today on my own place with my rifle. And I am not sure I shouldnt do it based on deer density. However, when my wife and I decide we need a couple deer for the freezer, we go to another piece of property I own - that backs up to public - and deer density is much lower - to the point you stand a chance of not seeing a deer. I cant really get past folks talking about does like they are a walking tenderloin - “oh, if you want some meat, just shoot a doe” - like they are a completely different species of animal. Last year, my wife and I hunted a couple of days on my other property - with full intentions of killing a couple of does for the freezer - and did not see one. I could have killed one at home without leaving the yard, but just cant make myself shoot a doe without actually hunting for it. I refuse to relegate a doe to being a meat source. They are the key to the herd.

A deer hunter can be a strange creature. We have a lot of different perspectives - based upon our hunting upbringing, deer density, antler quality, land availability, weapon choice, etc. Each to his own, I guess.

I think your heard might be healthier if you did kill more does on your property. Seems counterintuitive I know.

I grew up with guys saying “never kill does.” Now a wildlife biologist will say “kill as many does as you can.” It is a weird mindset change I know. But it’s fact it needs to happen.

 

[omicron1792]

I think the point you missed is that some bucks don’t get mature, even if passed. Harsh winters, large snow packs, late springs, wolf predation, etc, on and on, can kill bucks that expend too much energy trying to breed.

I pass small deer early on, but my Ultimate GOAL, is to get “a deer” every year. Back straps and deer sticks are the deal! And the burger, steaks, jerky, roast ain’t bad either.

As the season goes on, it only gets colder up here. I’m talking below zero. What some call a cold front in Kentucky, we call “t-shirt weather” lol, I’m half joking here !

so to answer your other question, why not a doe? Idk, if a nice doe walks by, I’d have no problem with taking one. But I think we are being conditioned to hunt bucks, and I set up different to Hunt bucks vs. hunt does. TBH, I’m probably spooking does, as I’m setting up to hunt bucks that might travel by to check the does.
I’d also say I’m fairly new to hunting, only 11 years. I’ve shot 3 does and 6 bucks. 2 of the does I shot were because I patterned them from bed to food, and was actually targeting a doe.

It’s my understanding the biggest threat to those bucks is running itself to death chasing too many does.

 

[yoderjac]

I think your heard might be healthier if you did kill more does on your property. Seems counterintuitive I know.

I grew up with guys saying “never kill does.” Now a wildlife biologist will say “kill as many does as you can.” It is a weird mindset change I know. But it’s fact it needs to happen.

That kind of biological advice is very localized. You can have 3 properties within 50 miles of each other where the biological objective can be to reduce population on parcel 1, stabilize the population on property 2 and increase the population on property 3.

I've bowhunted properties where the biologist wanted you to first shoot the doe and then wait for the spotted fawns with her to come back and shoot them as well. When I was growing up, you didn't event tell your friends if you applies for a doe permit.

It is not just the time, but it is also the location and current state of the herd and habitat.

 

[yoderjac]

It’s my understanding the biggest threat to those bucks is running itself to death chasing too many does.

In many areas, the biggest threat is the F150...