What is the mental dynamic involved

[Spike_Horn_Shooter]

No doubt, as deer density increases, usually, so do the restraints a hunter puts on himself. I could probably kill fifteen deer today on my own place with my rifle. And I am not sure I shouldnt do it based on deer density. However, when my wife and I decide we need a couple deer for the freezer, we go to another piece of property I own - that backs up to public - and deer density is much lower - to the point you stand a chance of not seeing a deer. I cant really get past folks talking about does like they are a walking tenderloin - “oh, if you want some meat, just shoot a doe” - like they are a completely different species of animal. Last year, my wife and I hunted a couple of days on my other property - with full intentions of killing a couple of does for the freezer - and did not see one. I could have killed one at home without leaving the yard, but just cant make myself shoot a doe without actually hunting for it. I refuse to relegate a doe to being a meat source. They are the key to the herd.

A deer hunter can be a strange creature. We have a lot of different perspectives - based upon our hunting upbringing, deer density, antler quality, land availability, weapon choice, etc. Each to his own, I guess.

I like that Swamp Cat. I don’t think people give does enough credit - like “ah it’s just a doe”. It was still a living animal and you took its life to eat it.

Nothing to be ashamed about shooting a doe.

I’ve started european mounting does i shoot. I feel like I should give them some sort of memorial. Even if it’s only in the garage - it helps to remember that hunt.

 

[Mortenson]

Some of our sets of neighbors won't shoot does. Most have stopped shooting yearling bucks. But a lot of 2.5 yr olds still get taken. They won't shoot does, and guess what, the dnr moved in a bunch of years ago and does it for them. And they shoot bucks too. I wish the neighbors would take some does and get that dot on the map, showing our section is trying. I didn't hear of anyone taking a doe this wknd.

 

[Barndog56]

I hunt mostly public as I only own 5 acres. In 15 years of deer hunting I've taken 2 mature bucks, one with a rifle and one this year with a crossbow. I've seen just 3 more that didn't give me a shot in all those years. Most years I don't see a single buck. I see few enough does and young bucks that I don't pass up anything. We need venison in the freezer.

Even with these low standards there have been a couple years where I've harvested nothing, and the most I've harvested in a single year is 4.

I'd pass up every young buck I saw if I knew I'd see a mature one. But if I pass one up I may not see another.

 

[yoderjac]

I like that Swamp Cat. I don’t think people give does enough credit - like “ah it’s just a doe”. It was still a living animal and you took its life to eat it.

Nothing to be ashamed about shooting a doe.

I’ve started european mounting does i shoot. I feel like I should give them some sort of memorial. Even if it’s only in the garage - it helps to remember that hunt.

That is an interesting perspective. Folks shoot deer for a lot of reasons and challenge is only one. You can show respect for the animal regardless of why your decided t harvest it. The first was is to take shots that maximize chances of a quick clean kill. The second is doing everything possible to recover the animal. There are many more beyond that, and you have chosen a unique one for does. Kudos!

In terms of giving does credit, here is my hierarchy for relative difficulty in harvest.

Of course, outside the rut with a firearm, mature bucks are the most difficult. Partly because in most places they are few and far between. Second, the favor security over food in most cases.

The easiest are fawns. They are generally forced to eat as much as possible to make it through the winter. They are anxious to get to food and are still learning security from mom.

Next are 1 1/2 year bucks. The are equivalent to teenagers. They are inexperienced and are often running around trying to figure out the area after relocating. Once testosterone levels rise, they are always on the prowl.

If you are patient, mature does are pretty easy with a gun. They are hamstrung by fawns. Even when they themselves did not raise fawns, they are usually part of a social family group that has fawns. Once fawns come out into a food source moms and the rest of the social group usually follow.

I find does actually more difficult to hunt during the rut. They generally leave fawns and family groups during this time. They also often head for heavy cover before they are ripe and being pestered by bucks. I've also seen them exhibit the opposite behavior where they come out into the open as mature bucks are reluctant. I often find doe laying in the yard in the suburbs during this period. Bucks are less willing to deal with the humans. In both cases they are looking for places bucks are less likely to go, where it is under a deadfall where antlers are and obstacle or in a suburban yard.

2 1/2 year old bucks are next on the scale except during the rut with a firearm. They are still harder than the teenage (1 1/2 yo) bucks but that may be that fact that there are fewer of them and they have a bit more experience under there belts.

In any case, every deer has a role and all should be respected. No one should be shamed because of their selection as long as it is harvested ethically and within the law.

Thanks,

jack

 

[omicron1792]

In many areas, the biggest threat is the F150...

Truth. Cities and counties encourage deer hunting because hitting deer costs so much time and money.

 

[yoderjac]

Truth. Cities and counties encourage deer hunting because hitting deer costs so much time and money.

and life...

 

[SwampCat]

I think your heard might be healthier if you did kill more does on your property. Seems counterintuitive I know.

I grew up with guys saying “never kill does.” Now a wildlife biologist will say “kill as many does as you can.” It is a weird mindset change I know. But it’s fact it needs to happen.

Like most things, it is a dynamic that varies by area. I have 15 adjacent property owners, many small ten to fifteen acre owners, with public land very close. I have always protected my does because it is difficult to anticipate how many does the neighbors are going to kill. In addition, my fawn recruitment numbers typically average .3 to .4 fawns per doe - and we rank in the bottom five states nationally for fawn recruitment. One of the ways to battle low fawn recruitment is to maintain an elevated doe population. G&f has visited my property and seen no indication of stress on the herd due to elevated density. We would gladly kill some does - but we save our does so that the neighbors can kill them.

 

[omicron1792]

Like most things, it is a dynamic that varies by area. I have 15 adjacent property owners, many small ten to fifteen acre owners, with public land very close. I have always protected my does because it is difficult to anticipate how many does the neighbors are going to kill. In addition, my fawn recruitment numbers typically average .3 to .4 fawns per doe - and we rank in the bottom five states nationally for fawn recruitment. One of the ways to battle low fawn recruitment is to maintain an elevated doe population. G&f has visited my property and seen no indication of stress on the herd due to elevated density. We would gladly kill some does - but we save our does so that the neighbors can kill them.

I totally understand. It’s my understanding that lowering doe numbers and improving buck to doe ratio can Increase fawn retention rates because not battling for limited resources.

But I totally understand what you’re saying. It’s hard for me too.

 

[yoderjac]

Like most things, it is a dynamic that varies by area. I have 15 adjacent property owners, many small ten to fifteen acre owners, with public land very close. I have always protected my does because it is difficult to anticipate how many does the neighbors are going to kill. In addition, my fawn recruitment numbers typically average .3 to .4 fawns per doe - and we rank in the bottom five states nationally for fawn recruitment. One of the ways to battle low fawn recruitment is to maintain an elevated doe population. G&f has visited my property and seen no indication of stress on the herd due to elevated density. We would gladly kill some does - but we save our does so that the neighbors can kill them.

That is a good point. Something I recommend for folks starting to do QDM is to draw two concentric circles around the center of their property. The inner circle should be about 1,000 acres, which is a good proxy for the home range of deer. The second is about 3 miles. Start with the inner circle and survey the area. Figure out what deer already have and what is missing. Do the same in that 3 mile area best you can.

That is the starting point for a plan. It not only applies to food and cover, but also harvest strategy as swampcat says. For example, we don't own enough acreage to expect good QDM results unless you included surrounding properties. So, we have a neighbor who does not allow hunting on his land and owns about 150 acres. We have permission to track deer on that land but not hunt it. It becomes the sanctuary part of our QDM plan. Similarly, if one has neighbors that shoot a lot of does on adjoining property, harvesting does may not be something that needs to be a major part of a program.

What your neighbors do impacts most of us. This thread is a good one to get people thinking about that. Not from a complaining standpoint, but from an understanding standpoint. Getting to know neighbors and learning what the do and how they think about hunting can really help folks plan their property, whether it is a large QDM property or a small property being improved for hunting.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[omicron1792]

That is a good point. Something I recommend for folks starting to do QDM is to draw two concentric circles around the center of their property. The inner circle should be about 1,000 acres, which is a good proxy for the home range of deer. The second is about 3 miles. Start with the inner circle and survey the area. Figure out what deer already have and what is missing. Do the same in that 3 mile area best you can.

That is the starting point for a plan. It not only applies to food and cover, but also harvest strategy as swampcat says. For example, we don't own enough acreage to expect good QDM results unless you included surrounding properties. So, we have a neighbor who does not allow hunting on his land and owns about 150 acres. We have permission to track deer on that land but not hunt it. It becomes the sanctuary part of our QDM plan. Similarly, if one has neighbors that shoot a lot of does on adjoining property, harvesting does may not be something that needs to be a major part of a program.

What your neighbors do impacts most of us. This thread is a good one to get people thinking about that. Not from a complaining standpoint, but from an understanding standpoint. Getting to know neighbors and learning what the do and how they think about hunting can really help folks plan their property, whether it is a large QDM property or a small property being improved for hunting.

Thanks,

Jack

Good points Jack.

Harvesting does can also help give idea of health herd by sending off 5 or so random samples.

 

[SwampCat]

I totally understand. It’s my understanding that lowering doe numbers and improving buck to doe ratio can Increase fawn retention rates because not battling for limited resources.

But I totally understand what you’re saying. It’s hard for me too.

Yes sir, and there is also the theory that a lot of does putting fawns on the ground at one time result in “predator swamping” - tending to overwhelm the predator population with a lot of fawns all at one time. Our adult does carry 1.7 fetuses - so it is not a problem of number of fawns hitting the ground - it is a problem of those fawns that are born living to an age where predation is not so severe. We are covered up with coyotes and bobcats - and nobody except me hunts or traps.

 

[omicron1792]

Yes sir, and there is also the theory that a lot of does putting fawns on the ground at one time result in “predator swamping” - tending to overwhelm the predator population with a lot of fawns all at one time. Our adult fawns carry 1.7 fetuses - so it is not a problem of number of fawns hitting the ground - it is a problem of those fawns that are born living to an age where predation is not so severe. We are covered up with coyotes and bobcats - and nobody except me hunts or traps.

I feel you bro. Same for me. I have 300 acres so need neighbor health. 600 acres north has limited hunting, but they refuse to shoot does. 800 south of me is a hunting club and is “if it’s brown it’s down.”

We have no hogs, but I bought thermals to put hell on the coyotes.

We did have several twin fawns and one triplets so herd health is pretty good.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

Such a broad question as has been discussed from most angles in this thread. Population and hunting dynamics change so much in different areas. In general I would guess the choice to shoot young bucks typically fits into one or more of the following buckets:

1. Lack of knowledge/experience. It's not easy for folks who very rarely see anything older than 2.5 to recognize how old a deer is. Most don't know a 2.5 YO buck isn't mature and that (in most locations) if everyone passed on them, hunting would probably but just as good but with better age class. Most have no idea how many bucks of different age class exist in their area so considering what the impact of harvest is doesn't cross their mind. This stuff doesn't cross the minds of the majority of hunters IMO.
2. the vicious cycle of everyone being the neighbor they blame with the "but neighbor bobby would shoot it if I didn't" excuse - Reality as shown in this thread is that a small property passing on bucks doesn't move the needle without the neighbors doing the same. The majority of hunters choose to shoot an immature deer over no deer and thus the vicious cycle until people get on the same page and do differently. When everyone is afraid of not getting a deer or when there are always neighbors who are going to take advantage and shoot the piss out of the new greater # of 2 or 3 YO bucks, people tend to stick to shooting whatever they can. Some of the co-op stories i've read here are encouraging but it does sound like a lot of work to get to that point.
3. Cases like i'm familiar with in the northwoods where passing young ones might not even markedly improve hunting and most people would never have deer to eat if they waited for a mature buck.
4. Hunters who just feel more proud of saying "I shot a buck" even if it's a 1.5 YO than saying they shot a doe. It has been a cultural thing ive seen a lot.
4a - [Edited to add] - some just dont like shooting does - After watching the doe family groups on my 40 I feel like I've gotten to know some of them. I honestly would feel more sorrow about shooting mom that i've watched run around the field with her wild little button buck a few times than dink buck.
5. Person casually hunts 2 days a year more for social aspect than the hunt, hunting isn't important to them, and the measure of "success" is shooting any deer. No deeper thought is given.
6. The rare case of someone who just doesn't value experiencing encounters with mature bucks higher than encounters with youngins. I'm sure these folks exist but i'm skeptical of most that claim they are just as excited about seeing a spike as they are a 5 YO.
7. [Edited in] - Some people just like killing stuff. I know it's very common in MN to pool tags in a party and everyone just does their damnedest to kill as many deer as they can to notch all of the tags in the party. In many cases the meat isn't needed or even really desired. This is the way the first group i hunted with as a 12 YO was. Honestly it took a number of years for me to grow out of my own blood lust. It's ugly looking back in hindsight.

On my property I didn't have a no question 3+ YO buck on cam this year until 11/15 when buck ranges tend to expand after the local does are worked through. Of the 5 or so that I had on cam that were 2+, a couple might be 3 but I would say 50/50 odds on being 2 vs 3. I'd bet most of them are dead by now. I have neighbors on one boundary that are thrilled with how good their deer hunting is. From what I gather they are likely to pass 1.5 YOs and end up shooting 2.5 YOs most years. To them, they are shooting the nice bucks and letting the young ones pass. I don't think they have much for trail cams out. Without significant time researching and pouring over cam pics, I just don't see how the average hunter would get to knowing a 2.5 YO buck isn't particularly mature and be able to identify that in the heat of the moment.

 

[bwoods11]

So much of what you decide to shoot depends on location. My farms in Minnesota are NOT loaded with old bucks, but a guy could shoot a basket 8 about every third hunt…

I would not pay $600 a tag to hunt Iowa and shoot a 3 year old genetic freak when there’s multiple big older bucks in the area.

Geography matters here.

If you hunt exclusively public land, or land that rarely produces older deer, I certainly don’t blame anyone for not passing deer.

Also, I hate to see young kids get caught up in passing too many bucks , until they have 2 or 3 under the belt. They need to shoot some deer and learn/experience the hunt, before they start passing bucks.

 

[Natty Bumppo]

When I read the thread title "what is the mental dynamic involved?" I thought this might be a thread about drinking alcohol free beer or wearing masks while driving alone in your car or something like that.

I fall into #3 on Wind Gypsy's list above. Here in the Northeast I can go years without even seeing a buck. Saw a single spike horn last year. I have yet to see a buck this year. Doe permits are rare in my zone. I don't apply for one anyway. I will take a young deer if given the chance. But after that, I would not fill my 2nd tag on anything but a mature buck.

I don't feel proud about shooting a 1.5 yo. It's not an ego thing. I'd much prefer to match wits with an older deer. I just really enjoy everything about butchering deer, making sausage, and cooking venison and sharing it with my friends and family.

 

[omicron1792]

When I read the thread title "what is the mental dynamic involved?" I thought this might be a thread about drinking alcohol free beer or wearing masks while driving alone in your car or something like that.

I fall into #3 on Wind Gypsy's list above. Here in the Northeast I can go years without even seeing a buck. Saw a single spike horn last year. I have yet to see a buck this year. Doe permits are rare in my zone. I don't apply for one anyway. I will take a young deer if given the chance. But after that, I would not fill my 2nd tag on anything but a mature buck.

I don't feel proud about shooting a 1.5 yo. It's not an ego thing. I'd much prefer to match wits with an older deer. I just really enjoy everything about butchering deer, making sausage, and cooking venison and sharing it with my friends and family.

That’s a real, great answer.

 

[AtomApple]

A 60+ year old guy in my bass club posted this on facebook… i made sure to tear him down about shooting a 2.5 year old. (Yes luxury guys, that is a 2.5 in MN)

 

[Bill Loser]

When I read the thread title "what is the mental dynamic involved?" I thought this might be a thread about drinking alcohol free beer or wearing masks while driving alone in your car or something like that.

I fall into #3 on Wind Gypsy's list above. Here in the Northeast I can go years without even seeing a buck. Saw a single spike horn last year. I have yet to see a buck this year. Doe permits are rare in my zone. I don't apply for one anyway. I will take a young deer if given the chance. But after that, I would not fill my 2nd tag on anything but a mature buck.

I don't feel proud about shooting a 1.5 yo. It's not an ego thing. I'd much prefer to match wits with an older deer. I just really enjoy everything about butchering deer, making sausage, and cooking venison and sharing it with my friends and family.

You should be proud. EVERY deer taken SHOULD be a trophy. Dont let others determine what is and is not a trophy to you.

 

[Natty Bumppo]

You should be proud. EVERY deer taken SHOULD be a trophy. Dont let others determine what is and is not a trophy to you.

Ah, no...you're right. That came out wrong. I am thrilled when I get any deer. I just don't go pumping my fist and beating my chest and slapping pics all over Facebook and that kind of stuff. That's what I meant. But I do feel an intrinsic pride, of course, for taking any deer cleanly and fairly.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

Ah, no...you're right. That came out wrong. I am thrilled when I get any deer. I just don't go pumping my fist and beating my chest and slapping pics all over Facebook and that kind of stuff. That's what I meant. But I do feel an intrinsic pride, of course, for taking any deer cleanly and fairly.

I understood what you meant with the context of a prior post where I said some folks shoot a 1.5 YO buck rather than a doe because they are more proud to say they shot the buck. You were simply saying you would shoot a 1.5 YO buck but it wasn't an ego or pride thing driving you to do so over shooting a doe.