What is the mental dynamic involved

[Bill Loser]

I'll never understand the logic of the "never shoot a doe" crowd but are willing to shoot a spike or fork?

A balanced herd sex wise is critical to it's survival. If you have narrowed the buck population down to only young deer, because 2.5 & 3.5 year olds never get to maturity, you are eliminating bucks from the gene pool who develop genetic traits that improves their survivability. Bucks that can survive hunting pressure, disease, harsh weather conditions, rut stres, territorial fighting, etc. when allowed to reach maturity will pass those traits on in breeding.

Shooting a buck to save a doe is counter intuitive to a healthy herd.

Yes 100% yes.
I will pass up a small buck to shoot a large doe everytime.

 

[Bill Loser]

This thread made me think about some stuff. If I never visited a hunting forum, had a trail cam, read studies about deer progression and age class, listened to podcasts, etc - I'd be much more excited about shooting little bucks like I was when I first started. I find the shifting baseline for what excites me to be sad. BUT, I'd also be missing the whole journey of consuming information, trying to improve habitat, trying to constantly hone tactics, etc and all of that has magnitudes more meaning than the end result of what does and doesn't get killed. The Journey is the important part but it's important to not let what others do overshadow your own journey.

I agree, ive been through the whole trophy only stage. It wasnt for me, didnt enjoy hunting nearly as much as i do now.

 

[SwampCat]

At my own property I will always shoot a doe over a small buck. My dad and I belong to a hunting club in WV and there I will shoot a small buck over a doe every time, just because of the herd size. This year I saw 1 fawn in a week of hunting. So many bear and coyotes, would love to know what the fawn survival rate is. It has to be really low.

This is close to you, N GA, and exhibits same problems. Doesnt appear to be an easy solution

 

[TWIG]

It's fairly generational too. I'm probably one of the younger lads on the forum at age 35 but when I get to swap hunting stories with my grandfather or even my dad, times have changed dramatically in the whitetail world. Where I live in PA, there weren't deer when my grandfather was younger. My grandfather loves rehashing the events that unfolded when he stumbled across the first deer track he ever saw. Word spread like fire through the area by his account. Even the stories from my dad growing up, hunting hard and making the front page of the local paper with a basket rack are humbling.

My generation is a completely different animal. We grew up with the internet. We loved watching the latest episodes of buckmasters in the 90s. As a kid I can remember begging my mom to get the film developed from my first trail camera every weekend. I was hooked from the word go and since the age of 14 I've been in hot pursuit of the biggest bucks I know to exist every year. I can't even relate to guys that aren't in solely for the pursuit of big bucks. Makes no sense in my mind. There isn't a rollercoaster on earth that offers as many ups, downs, twists, and turns.

It's all relative though. If I uprooted myself and moved to Iowa, I'd have a hard time not shooting every 140" deer I encountered for the first couple years.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

View attachment 47430
This is close to you, N GA, and exhibits same problems. Doesnt appear to be an easy solution

Being pretty familiar with n ga public lands, that is 100% mismanagement of habitat. Those forests are some of the most sterile landscapes in the country. Apparently they use to be flush with game when timber was allowed to be managed.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

It's fairly generational too. I'm probably one of the younger lads on the forum at age 35 but when I get to swap hunting stories with my grandfather or even my dad, times have changed dramatically in the whitetail world. Where I live in PA, there weren't deer when my grandfather was younger. My grandfather loves rehashing the events that unfolded when he stumbled across the first deer track he ever saw. Word spread like fire through the area by his account. Even the stories from my dad growing up, hunting hard and making the front page of the local paper with a basket rack are humbling.

My generation is a completely different animal. We grew up with the internet. We loved watching the latest episodes of buckmasters in the 90s. As a kid I can remember begging my mom to get the film developed from my first trail camera every weekend. I was hooked from the word go and since the age of 14 I've been in hot pursuit of the biggest bucks I know to exist every year. I can't even relate to guys that aren't in solely for the pursuit of big bucks. Makes no sense in my mind. There isn't a rollercoaster on earth that offers as many ups, downs, twists, and turns.

It's all relative though. If I uprooted myself and moved to Iowa, I'd have a hard time not shooting every 140" deer I encountered for the first couple years.

I think some of my point was lost and I get it, there is a ton of stuff on this thread. A big buck is relative to your area. Maturity is the important factor. Generally speaking older bucks will grow bigger antlers. Dead immature bucks don’t grow anything but cobwebs in a box in the corner for a lot of hunters.

 

[Bill Loser]

They are also a proxy for proper wildlife and habitat management which should be our goal as hunters and land managers

There is no way you can equate shooting only "mature" bicks with a healthier deer herd.
Want a healthy herd? Provide supplemental food sources, cover if you can, water sources, and above all dont kill all of em. Letting a 2 1/2 yearold pass does none of those things, except for not killing them i guess..lol

 

[Bill Loser]

We disagree, but I won't count out the possibility you're right about the people you interact with. I personally have never interacted with a single hunter in real life who wouldn't find big antlers at least a novelty. That includes a bunch of casual folks who have never shot a deer.

Funny thing about deer meat not coming from factory farms. Instead of being grain fed beef, we can shoot free range GMO corn and bean fed deer from living off ground that is nuked with herbicides and pesticides annually. You don't think these new folks trying to get away from factory farms would find it interesting if they shot a buck with big antlers? Probably wouldn't even take a picture or take the antlers out of the woods?

Who sees a giant buck and doesn't take note of the antlers? A crazy New Jersey cat lady sees a 200" buck stroll through her back yard she's probably going to take note of it more than if a doe did. Rocky Mountain national park and the jackson WY elk refuge has famous named bulls that are famous (amongst a non-hunter majority) for their antlers. I've had a few occasions where non-hunting strangers inquired about purchasing antlers they saw in my pickup bed just while traveling home from western hunts or from a taxidermist. Antlers are cool and interesting to most people is all i'm saying.

You are right. Antlers are cool and interesting.

 

[Tree Spud]

At my own property I will always shoot a doe over a small buck. My dad and I belong to a hunting club in WV and there I will shoot a small buck over a doe every time, just because of the herd size. This year I saw 1 fawn in a week of hunting. So many bear and coyotes, would love to know what the fawn survival rate is. It has to be really low.

The predator-prey cycle and balance is always evolving. When prey levels are on the rise, predators move in. When prey levels drop, predators move on to others reas allowing these prey populations to rebuild. That's the plan mother nature has designed to insure balance in the ecosystem.

 

[Bill Loser]

So this is what i deal with in my area.
One of the adjacent landowners hints elsewhere in the northern part of the state along with hunting land he has here. He just got done telling me anout his opening day. He saw 6 doe traveling together and shot every one of them. On the inside I'm thinking, why? Why do you need to kill everything that shows up? On the outside im saying congratulations on some good shooting. I said so you must be set for.meat for.a while? Hopingafter 6 he'd hang it up. Nope, those 6 get shared between 3 guys so gotta keep after it and kill some more. Why? How much is enough? Doesnt even have a family to feed. Now hes going to come out here and shoot every deer he sees.
I want to say something, but its not my place, hes not breaking the law but...
I am much more concerned about that kind of stuff then a couple horns.

 

[bwoods11]

So this is what i deal with in my area.
One of the adjacent landowners hints elsewhere in the northern part of the state along with hunting land he has here. He just got done telling me anout his opening day. He saw 6 doe traveling together and shot every one of them. On the inside I'm thinking, why? Why do you need to kill everything that shows up? On the outside im saying congratulations on some good shooting. I said so you must be set for.meat for.a while? Hopingafter 6 he'd hang it up. Nope, those 6 get shared between 3 guys so gotta keep after it and kill some more. Why? How much is enough? Doesnt even have a family to feed. Now hes going to come out here and shoot every deer he sees.
I want to say something, but its not my place, hes not breaking the law but...
I am much more concerned about that kind of stuff then a couple horns.

What ? They gave him their tags ? How fun? Hey guys out tags are filled !

 

[Bill Loser]

What ? They gave him their tags ? How fun? Hey guys out tags are filled !

Right? I cant say too much. I went through that stage also, i remember one year in the t zone years i killed 8. Thought i was king shit. Look back now.and wonder wth i was thinking.
Thing is this guy is older than me, imo should know better.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

What ? They gave him their tags ? How fun? Hey guys out tags are filled !

Looks like you can buy a shitload of "bonus Harvest authorizations" until the unit quota is gone. Don't need party tags.

https://dnr.wisconsin.gov/permits/bonusavailability.html

 

[Bill Loser]

Yep, can buy as many as you want. Wis dnr wont be happy until there is only 1 deer left in the state.

 

[SwampCat]

Being pretty familiar with n ga public lands, that is 100% mismanagement of habitat. Those forests are some of the most sterile landscapes in the country. Apparently they use to be flush with game when timber was allowed to be managed.

I used to live in GA many years ago and we had fair success in the mountains. Mature hardwood forests do no favors To many game species. And lack of bedding and fawning cover make it easy for predators to clean out the annual fawn crop. There were no coyotes and very few bears when I lived there. Now, the yankees are taking over that country

 

[bwoods11]

Looks like you can buy a shitload of "bonus Harvest authorizations" until the unit quota is gone. Don't need party tags.

https://dnr.wisconsin.gov/permits/bonusavailability.html

They are as dumb as the MN DNR...keep shooting all the deer, hmmm harvest is down 15% (shocked face)??

 

[Bill Loser]

They are as dumb as the MN DNR...keep shooting all the deer, hmmm harvest is down 15% (shocked face)??

Whats worse than the dnr selling them is the guys who think they HAVE to fill them.
A crew locally last year shot 23 i was told. Mostly fawns. These same giys will scream bloody murder when they dont see any deer in a couple years.

 

[Tree Spud]

There is no way you can equate shooting only "mature" bicks with a healthier deer herd.
Want a healthy herd? Provide supplemental food sources, cover if you can, water sources, and above all dont kill all of em. Letting a 2 1/2 yearold pass does none of those things, except for not killing them i guess..lol

That perspective goes completely against the natural selection evolution process. If you severely impact and limit the age structure and keep deer from getting to 3.5 and older, you are removing the strongest animals from the genetic pool.

Everything you state that is needed is already there. People get so myopic thinking that habitat mgmt is the solution. I'm not saying habitat mgmt is bad, sometimes it does more harm than good.

I hunt northern Alberta Canada in the deep bush non-agriculture land. There are no grain fields, fruit sources, etc. The primary food sources are browse and lichen (moss that hangs from trees). The average field dressed, gutted weight of the deer we take up there is is 240-260 lbs. These deer are a minimum of 4.5-5.5 years old and 6.5-8.5 yo are not unusual.

Hard to argue with Darwin ... history has proven him right.

nat·u·ral se·lec·tion
/ˈnaCH(ə)rəl səˈlekSHən/

noun BIOLOGY
the process whereby organisms better adapted to their environment tend to survive and produce more offspring. The theory of its action was first fully expounded by Charles Darwin and is now believed to be the main process that brings about evolution.

 

[yoderjac]

We disagree, but I won't count out the possibility you're right about the people you interact with. I personally have never interacted with a single hunter in real life who wouldn't find big antlers at least a novelty. That includes a bunch of casual folks who have never shot a deer.

Funny thing about deer meat not coming from factory farms. Instead of being grain fed beef, we can shoot free range GMO corn and bean fed deer from living off ground that is nuked with herbicides and pesticides annually. You don't think these new folks trying to get away from factory farms would find it interesting if they shot a buck with big antlers? Probably wouldn't even take a picture or take the antlers out of the woods?

Who sees a giant buck and doesn't take note of the antlers? A crazy New Jersey cat lady sees a 200" buck stroll through her back yard she's probably going to take note of it more than if a doe did. Rocky Mountain national park and the jackson WY elk refuge has famous named bulls that are famous (amongst a non-hunter majority) for their antlers. I've had a few occasions where non-hunting strangers inquired about purchasing antlers they saw in my pickup bed just while traveling home from western hunts or from a taxidermist. Antlers are cool and interesting to most people is all i'm saying.

I think we only disagree in terms of the extent. I would certainly concede that antlers are important to most folks. And don't get me wrong. I was not trying to make the argument that eating wild venison is overall better. There is probably some validity to the "lower in fat" argument is probably valid, but I don't know how much beyond that. My point was simply that some folks are now hunting because they believe it is both healthier and better for the climate. Their reasoning my be flawed, but antlers are not a consideration for many in that crowd.

I don't know what percentage of hunters care about antlers. It is probably most, but there are many that don't.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

They are as dumb as the MN DNR...keep shooting all the deer, hmmm harvest is down 15% (shocked face)??

WI estimated deer population density is also 28.7 per square mile vs MN @ 10.9. Not sure shooting a bunch of does is a bad thing in much of the state?

I'd be happy to trade with them on gun season dates but not allowing crossbows in archery season.