Productive properties in underwhelming states

[Triple C]

We still have 16 days of general firearms season, and another 16 days of muzzleloader season. The firearms season is roughly the second half of November.

j-bird - How about roughly 90 days of firearms season in GA starting this coming Saturday and running thru 2nd Saturday of January. 2 buck limit. 10 antlerless limit. Bucks get slaughtered. Oddly, I wouldn't vote to change it though. Makes for 3 months of opportunity to spend as much time as one likes at camp with friends, family, grandkids n such. No place I'd rather be than hanging with family n friends just about every weekend and for the most part, seldom pulling the trigger or releasing an arrow unless the mood hits, or a big 'un walks by or adding freezer queens to the skinning pole.

My favorite week of the season is the last week when we have a few dads bring their kids down at the same time for freezer queens n swine.

Last day of season 2021.

 

[Garrett S]

Not to mention the extreme cost of doing such. A lot of money to shoot a deer and not be able to use the property in other ways

Let alone deer that are not so impressive beyond that area (at that cost)!

I’m with ya


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

It's all about age. I belong to a small co-op in Michigan, we have a couple thousand acres of members who claim to pass 1.5 old bucks. Then we have a "core group" of 5 land owners and just under 500 contiguous acres that are roughly 4.5 or 140". I say roughly because I've been adamant from the beginning not to have firm rules, if a deer gets you excited, by all means shoot it. In 2019, we killed or found deadheads of 5 bucks from 150-177" on the "Core group" and have killed 2 over 140" already this year. This type of hunting is not supposed to exist Michigan. The biggest issue we have is the neighborhood really puts a hurt on the upper end young bucks. Many of them will pass that basket rack 2.5yo 8pt, but almost none will pass that 2.5yo 130" 10pt, which I understand is a tough pass. The best scoring buck in the co-ops short history was only a 3 year old, so the genetics and nutrition to produce world class bucks certainly exists. Can only imagine the possibilities if we could advance more of those upper end young bucks.

Yours is the kind of example I love. Congrats! Would love to follow along with the progress. Keep us posted. 150-177 are giants for Michigan!

 

[Wind Gypsy]

It's all about age. I belong to a small co-op in Michigan, we have a couple thousand acres of members who claim to pass 1.5 old bucks. Then we have a "core group" of 5 land owners and just under 500 contiguous acres that are roughly 4.5 or 140". I say roughly because I've been adamant from the beginning not to have firm rules, if a deer gets you excited, by all means shoot it. In 2019, we killed or found deadheads of 5 bucks from 150-177" on the "Core group" and have killed 2 over 140" already this year. This type of hunting is not supposed to exist Michigan. The biggest issue we have is the neighborhood really puts a hurt on the upper end young bucks. Many of them will pass that basket rack 2.5yo 8pt, but almost none will pass that 2.5yo 130" 10pt, which I understand is a tough pass. The best scoring buck in the co-ops short history was only a 3 year old, so the genetics and nutrition to produce world class bucks certainly exists. Can only imagine the possibilities if we could advance more of those upper end young bucks.

Curious on how the coop started?

I feel like in my neighborhood it would largely fall on deaf ears or worse.

 

[gunfun13]

Curious on how the coop started?

I feel like in my neighborhood it would largely fall on deaf ears or worse.

2 properties directly bordering me sold the same year and it started out just having conversations with the new owners. Both purchased their properties to hunt and manage for quality deer, so not exactly a tough sell as it was already their intention when they purchased.

I then sent a post card to every land owner with 10+ acres in a 1 mile radius inviting anyone interested in deer management to a BBQ. Over 30 showed up. Pretty informal, just let people know what we were doing and asked that if they were committed to passing 1.5yo bucks that they mark their property on a map. Then created a facebook group and included as many of the new members as I could find, where members could share kill, trailcam, and pass videos or pictures.

Probably the most interesting part was the assumptions that were being made just because the lack of communication. Everyone was assuming the "if I don't shoot it the neighbor will" mentality, when it wasn't even true in a lot of cases. Knowing that the neighbor was willing to pass deer suddenly made them willing to pass deer.

 

[j-bird]

Immensity vs Intensity......very different things regarding management and conservation efforts.

 

[westonwhitetail]

2 properties directly bordering me sold the same year and it started out just having conversations with the new owners. Both purchased their properties to hunt and manage for quality deer, so not exactly a tough sell as it was already their intention when they purchased.

I then sent a post card to every land owner with 10+ acres in a 1 mile radius inviting anyone interested in deer management to a BBQ. Over 30 showed up. Pretty informal, just let people know what we were doing and asked that if they were committed to passing 1.5yo bucks that they mark their property on a map. Then created a facebook group and included as many of the new members as I could find, where members could share kill, trailcam, and pass videos or pictures.

Probably the most interesting part was the assumptions that were being made just because the lack of communication. Everyone was assuming the "if I don't shoot it the neighbor will" mentality, when it wasn't even true in a lot of cases. Knowing that the neighbor was willing to pass deer suddenly made them willing to pass deer.

Interesting story! I like the simple rule. Just one rule that is fairly easily identifiable in the field.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

Interesting story! I like the simple rule. Just one rule that is fairly easily identifiable in the field.

You'd think so but i've seen some 1.5 YO that have better racks than a lot of 2.5 YO! The whole aging thing is tough for me.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

You'd think so but i've seen some 1.5 YO that have better racks than a lot of 2.5 YO! The whole aging thing is tough for me.

It is I agree. I think anyone who claims that can accurately age a deer on the hoof with no history is fooling themselves.
It’s definitely a flawed system but I almost prefer basing shoot or don’t shoot guidelines based on inches. It’s not perfect but it’s easier for the average hunter to comprehend the difference between a 120 and a 140.

 

[gunfun13]

Interesting story! I like the simple rule. Just one rule that is fairly easily identifiable in the field.

Imposing rules create animosity/resentment IMO and I'm experiencing that amongst our core group right now. A couple guys are staunch 4.5 or 140" harvest criteria and a couple others are a little looser. The 140/4.5 guys definitely try to push that agenda and it doesn't sit well with the others. At the end of the day we've all purchased these properties ourselves, pay taxes, put in work, etc and having someone tell you what to shoot doesn't go over well. We all have our own goals. The most important thing is to recognize that and be supportive in their pursuit of it, even if it doesn't totally align with your own goals.

One of our guys shot a 120" 8pt last year, probably a 3.5yo, that he was thrilled to take it. The first response of another member was "I passed that deer 3 times". Though I know he didn't mean anything malicious by it, a simple statement like that does damage. In an instant, the value of his trophy was diminished. Little things like that change the dynamic of relationships and willingness of cooperation. Ultimately pushing any firm rules will push more people away than it will ever attract.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

Imposing rules create animosity/resentment IMO and I'm experiencing that amongst our core group right now. A couple guys are staunch 4.5 or 140" harvest criteria and a couple others are a little looser. The 140/4.5 guys definitely try to push that agenda and it doesn't sit well with the others. At the end of the day we've all purchased these properties ourselves, pay taxes, put in work, etc and having someone tell you what to shoot doesn't go over well. We all have our own goals. The most important thing is to recognize that and be supportive in their pursuit of it, even if it doesn't totally align with your own goals.

One of our guys shot a 120" 8pt last year, probably a 3.5yo, that he was thrilled to take it. The first response of another member was "I passed that deer 3 times". Though I know he didn't mean anything malicious by it, a simple statement like that does damage. In an instant, the value of his trophy was diminished. Little things like that change the dynamic of relationships and willingness of cooperation. Ultimately pushing any firm rules will push more people away than it will ever attract.

Curious what is the biggest tract in the co-op and what is the smallest? Is their any correlation between property size and deer willing to shoot/pass?
I’m very interested in your successes/challenges. I have a really good neighbor who we have an informal co-op covering about 800 acres but I would love to expand it many times over.

 

[gunfun13]

Curious what is the biggest tract in the co-op and what is the smallest? Is their any correlation between property size and deer willing to shoot/pass?
I’m very interested in your successes/challenges. I have a really good neighbor who we have an informal co-op covering about 800 acres but I would love to expand it many times over.

In the whole coop 400 acres and 20 acres.

In the core group 260 acres and 40 acres.

I'd say the amount of people hunting the property is much more of a correlation than size of the property. The fewer people the more likely to participate or have the highest self imposed guidelines.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

In the whole coop 400 acres and 20 acres.

In the core group 260 acres and 40 acres.

I'd say the amount of people hunting the property is much more of a correlation than size of the property. The fewer people the more likely to participate or have the highest self imposed guidelines.

That makes sense. So low hunter/acre is the bigger indicator of willingness to pass on deer.

 

[j-bird]

Rule on my place is simple....since we only get one buck (by law)....the rule is he needs to be as wide as his ears (or reasonably close). Rookie hunters can shoot any buck they like. I have no false dreams of growing a booner....so we might as well have some fun without being overbearing.

You don't need complicated rules. You need honest folks WANTING to abide by them and willing to do without today for a better tomorrow. Our "gotta have it now" society struggles with a little thing called "sacrifice" these days. In fact, some are so consumed by it they would rather break the rules/law seeking that "high" of the attention a harvest brings....than go without. And that is just sad.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

Rule on my place is simple....since we only get one buck (by law)....the rule is he needs to be as wide as his ears (or reasonably close). Rookie hunters can shoot any buck they like. I have no false dreams of growing a booner....so we might as well have some fun without being overbearing.

You don't need complicated rules. You need honest folks WANTING to abide by them and willing to do without today for a better tomorrow. Our "gotta have it now" society struggles with a little thing called "sacrifice" these days. In fact, some are so consumed by it they would rather break the rules/law seeking that "high" of the attention a harvest brings....than go without. And that is just sad.

I agree about keeping rules simply but do you feel like your two paragraphs contradict each other? The first seems like a lax, “easy” success rule (which I’m not saying is wrong, its your property) but the second reads like people need to sacrifice their desire to shoot marginal/younger deer for better success tomorrow. Maybe I’m reading it wrong but that’s how I read it. Btw i totally agree with your second paragraph, true success comes with some sacrifices.

 

[westonwhitetail]

You'd think so but i've seen some 1.5 YO that have better racks than a lot of 2.5 YO! The whole aging thing is tough for me.

Yeah your right! Some probably get shot that shouldn't but at least you are hopefully protecting a higher percentage of them. Then it's a just a numbers game to get them to 4.5 plus. If you don't protect the 1.5's and a higher percentage get shot, there's a lot less 2.5's to get to 3.5 and so on....

 

[SwampCat]

A lot of folks dont realize that if you pass the 1 yr olds, there might be a lull in harvest for a couple of years - and then you will be right back to same harvest numbers. But you will be shooting 8 pts instead of spikes and 4 pts.

 

[bueller]

2 properties directly bordering me sold the same year and it started out just having conversations with the new owners. Both purchased their properties to hunt and manage for quality deer, so not exactly a tough sell as it was already their intention when they purchased.

I then sent a post card to every land owner with 10+ acres in a 1 mile radius inviting anyone interested in deer management to a BBQ. Over 30 showed up. Pretty informal, just let people know what we were doing and asked that if they were committed to passing 1.5yo bucks that they mark their property on a map. Then created a facebook group and included as many of the new members as I could find, where members could share kill, trailcam, and pass videos or pictures.

Probably the most interesting part was the assumptions that were being made just because the lack of communication. Everyone was assuming the "if I don't shoot it the neighbor will" mentality, when it wasn't even true in a lot of cases. Knowing that the neighbor was willing to pass deer suddenly made them willing to pass deer.

^^ This is awesome

 

[j-bird]

I agree about keeping rules simply but do you feel like your two paragraphs contradict each other? The first seems like a lax, “easy” success rule (which I’m not saying is wrong, its your property) but the second reads like people need to sacrifice their desire to shoot marginal/younger deer for better success tomorrow. Maybe I’m reading it wrong but that’s how I read it. Btw i totally agree with your second paragraph, true success comes with some sacrifices.

This is about the best way I can put it.

I'll give up "my booner" for an occasional nice pretty 150" buck or to see the smile on a young hunters face after their first deer harvest any and every day of the year! I would still love to have a swing at a monster. And maybe that is a little contradictory. My point is that I'm not going to sacrifice everything along the way to get it. Do you have to give a little to get a little? Sure. But I don't think I am killing off every 3 or 4 year old deer in my area by taking one every couple of years, or hurting anything by allowing a scrub buck to be taken every once in a while. I'm stopping to smell the roses as they say!

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

This is about the best way I can put it.

I'll give up "my booner" for an occasional nice pretty 150" buck or to see the smile on a young hunters face after their first deer harvest any and every day of the year! I would still love to have a swing at a monster. And maybe that is a little contradictory. My point is that I'm not going to sacrifice everything along the way to get it. Do you have to give a little to get a little? Sure. But I don't think I am killing off every 3 or 4 year old deer in my area by taking one every couple of years, or hurting anything by allowing a scrub buck to be taken every once in a while. I'm stopping to smell the roses as they say!

Understood! I enjoy digging into the mindset of hunters and managers so sorry if I came off as anything other than inquisitive. I think it can help to formulate goals with neighbors or other hunters/managers if you can understand what their desires are.