I can’t imagine gun hunting during the rut. I hate gun hunting in general. When the jackass neighbors shoot ag tags during October (gun only) I can always tell by slower camera activity, mainly at night. It takes about a week for things to get back to normal, but with less deer.
Are the glory days of deer hunting coming to a close?
- Thread starter Howboutthemdawgs
- Start date
Howboutthemdawgs
5 year old buck +
My theory-
Regulations have a big role. We’ve been over it but no crossbows, no bait, late gun season. Very limited out of state hunting. That can’t be overstated. If someone takes a trip to hunt deer in another state there is usually an expectation to not come home empty handed. A lot of times that means settling. Iowa saves a lot of bucks by limiting that.
Habitat. A lot of cropland and a lot of edge. As opposed to some of the midwest states the topography doesn’t allow for giant square crops fields. Lots of edge with the ag. From what I’ve seen the woods seems to be more open than hardwood dominated forests. Sunlight hits the ground there.
Expectations. There’s an expectation centered around large, mature antlered bucks. People there don’t seem to settle. Look at what @chad.williams shot on his 25 acres. What a hammer. That would almost never happen at the states I’ve hunted. That deer got that size from getting that old. His neighbors have undoubtedly passed that deer throughout the years.
Maybe there’s more or less to it but that’s my theory anyway.
hillrunner
5 year old buck +
It's regulations. If you move the gun seasons to November and open up the nr tags like the outfitters want, no one will be talking about iowa anymore. You could throw crossbows into archery for good measure so all the gun only hunters suddenly become "bow" hunters. Iowa does not have the population or the habitat to withstand that. It could easily be ruined.
We are packing our gear to leave for Mexico Tuesday. This will be my 40th year in a row to take the trek across the Rio Grande and I am as excited as a teenager thinking he's gonna get lucky. In the early years I was a paying hunter on various ranches between Nuevo Laredo and Piedras Negras. Frankly the hunting sucked back then but the mystique of hunting gigantic ranches in what appeared to be Africa west was compelling. I had one week long trip where I never saw a deer. Things have improved rather dramatically since then.
With that in mind and thinking about where this thread started it seems that it's quite circumstantial answering the question of the glory days of deer hunting. We are packing the best Zeiss binocs, terrific rifles, incredible compound bows...all the best gear. We will be hunting country where there are as many 5 year and older bucks as 1-4 yr olds. The quality is as good as anywhere in the U.S. the fabled midwest included. The reason is simple.Age and nutrition. This has happened throughout the million plus acres along the Rio Grande where people have invested in the quality habitat , employed fundamental mgt. practices and created wildlife havens. The equipment made no difference. The major difference is scale.
Following that just a bit, could it be that land fragmentation is the biggest challenge to the glory days of hunting . The problem is not the equipment, feeders, baiting and cross bows included.It takes scale to manage a whitetail herd. As properties become smaller, then the only way to ensure age is reducing hunter opportunity which kinda goes against what hunters want.Paradox.
With that in mind and thinking about where this thread started it seems that it's quite circumstantial answering the question of the glory days of deer hunting. We are packing the best Zeiss binocs, terrific rifles, incredible compound bows...all the best gear. We will be hunting country where there are as many 5 year and older bucks as 1-4 yr olds. The quality is as good as anywhere in the U.S. the fabled midwest included. The reason is simple.Age and nutrition. This has happened throughout the million plus acres along the Rio Grande where people have invested in the quality habitat , employed fundamental mgt. practices and created wildlife havens. The equipment made no difference. The major difference is scale.
Following that just a bit, could it be that land fragmentation is the biggest challenge to the glory days of hunting . The problem is not the equipment, feeders, baiting and cross bows included.It takes scale to manage a whitetail herd. As properties become smaller, then the only way to ensure age is reducing hunter opportunity which kinda goes against what hunters want.Paradox.
Howboutthemdawgs
5 year old buck +
Great point about fragmentation and one I’ve commented on before. As larger tracts get broken up daily to smaller affordable tracts, deer have an exponentially less chance of reaching maturity. 20, 40 acre tracts is hell on a deers chance of survival as opposed to one 800 acre tract.
Maybe a dumb question, but are we assuming the 20 40-ac tracts comes with more hunting pressure?
Howboutthemdawgs
5 year old buck +
Right, it’s a numbers game. Definitely not speaking in absolutes but just conventional wisdom would suggest that. Another assumption but highly logical, guys in a multiple smaller tract neighborhood are more likely to not pass on 2.5 year old deer for fear it will just get shot by a neighbor.
But remember - Iowa hunters are killing 25% of the total population every year. AR hunters are killing 19% of the population every year. We carry over 800,000 deer from one year to the next. Iowa carries over 300,000 deer from one year to the next. Arkansas is in the top five states every year for average age of harvest bucks:
Iowa does not even get an honorable mention. And as far as average buck size at each specific age - compare your same aged buck with ours. Throw out everything else - and compare the average AR buck with the average Iowa buck. Do your average 5 year old bucks score 112” like they do in the gulf coastal plain where I hunt? I doubt it.
So, in AR, our harvest bucks average age is older than almost anywhere in the US. We kill a smaller percentage of our herd every year than does Iowa. Comparing strictly age to age, I am sure our 5 yr old bucks average size is much smaller than Iowa average 5 yr old bucks.
Based strictly on age alone - regardless of regulations - I am sure you would agree an Iowa average 5 yr old buck would gross more than 112” like ours do in the Gulf Coastal Plain. Do you think that is due to regulations, genetics, nutrition, or something else. Remember, we are only comparing 5 yr old buck to 5 yr old buck.
Howboutthemdawgs
5 year old buck +
Wouldn’t you think it’s nutrition in your case? I hunted a part of southwest Georgia for years. Big timber company land. Bucks died of old age cause it was so vast and thick. So I know the world you are referring to.
I don’t think there is a genetic strain with large antlers at 5.5 that happens to live in iowa where they can eat out of a soybean field, alfalfa field, crp, corn field, open canopy woodlot and probably not have to move a mile to hit all of it. Juxtaposed to another strain that has smaller antlers but also happens to live in a place where the pine plantations create a vast choked out desert, hayfields with some grass that holds very little value and drainages with pin oaks and the like.
I do think the effect of regulations are minimized in your world. Midwest deer are just more visible because their world is more visible. Making them easier to kill will have a negative impact. Your deer can slip by you at 50 yards and you might catch a glimpse. Whether you have a compound, crossbow or .308 may not matter.
I believe it is a combination - Bergman’s rule - larger animals live further north, nutrition for sure, and possibly some genetics. I believe very little of it is regulation related. If Iowa hunters had AR regulations, deer would probably be extinct in that state in five years. If AR hunters had IA regulations, deer would probably be so numerous you could not drive to the corner gas station without hitting one
But all things equal - I believe most folks from IA would agree an average 5 yr old deer there would score more than 112”. A 150” five yr old deer here is an anomaly. They exist - slightly more numerous than a bigfoot. They are probably relatively common in IA at that age. The average age of the deer we kill is probably right at 5 yrs. We shoot the biggest of the 5 year olds - and still a 150” deer is rare. That is not regulation or age driven - that is genetics or nutrition.
hillrunner
5 year old buck +
Sorry but I'm not really concerned with comparing iowa to southern states. I know nothing of them and I'm sure they have their own challenges. You could be completely correct in your opinion.
I'm more interested in comparing it to its border states. States that have every advantage over iowa in terms of habitat and have equal nutrition + genetics.
Why do you think there is a difference in hunting quality on the Missouri/ Iowa border? Iowa holds no advantage over Missouri as far as what nature provides.
You described NE perfectly. It would be great if the rifle season was moved to December but that will never happen. Surveys have been done to test this idea and the vast majority want it as it is now. They was very little support for later gun seasons.
Wind Gypsy
5 year old buck +
You’re comparing AR to IA which are two different ballparks. Of course nutrition is huge. I’d imagine there is also much less pressure (stress) in much of IA. Lower stress, better nutrition = bigger bucks. Those of us who credit the regulations do it largely in comparison to neighboring states with similar habitat/nutrition but worse age class and buck:doe ratios and thus fewer big bucks.
I would think in neighboring states where genetics and nutrition was relatively equal, then regulations and hunter choice could make a difference. I believe MO allows centerfire rifles and IA does not - that could make a difference. Add in other small differences, and it could add up.
To be a pure fair comparison - do deer of the same age in IA average larger for the same aged deer in surrounding states. If they do, it is probably a result of nutrition or genetics - if not - probably regulations
Wind Gypsy
5 year old buck +
Would be an interesting comparison but I could still see “high grading” due to regs having an impact that skews results. I.E. if top end bucks in a given neighborhood are usually 140”ish, bucks that make it to 5 or 6 are less likely to be those with high genetic potential.
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I grew up in north central mo and moved to the ozarks in the late 90's. I had a lot of family with farms in south central iowa. The biggest difference between the two is very simple, mo has rifle season during the rut, iowa doesn't. Iowa was shotgun only for a long time, I have no idea if they are still. MDC caved into insurance companies about ten years ago, then chose to weaponized a disease against us...im gonna shut up now...
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Wind Gypsy
5 year old buck +
Same basically everywhere. Hunters would advocate for regs that wiped out every deer then fight over who gets to shoot the last one in many places. MN surveys are the same. MT mule deer are hurting bad. MT is the only state that has OTC rifle hunting for mule deer in the rut that I know of, and their rifle season is 5 weeks long. Every MT hunter will tell you they want more and bigger bucks but the surveys indicate they just can’t stomach the idea of not being able rifle most of the state during the rut OTC every year.
When I first moved to the ozarks the deer population was beyond high, not unusual to drive down five miles of gravel road in the evening and count over a hundred deer coming out of the hills down to the hay fields in the valleys. Naturally there were a few bucks that made it through, 150's were not that uncommon. Now you might see five deer in the same evening drive and a 120 inch buck is a unicorn.
IDNR ..... 2021 "Illinois has seen the number of deer killed drop in the last decade and a half — from 200,000 in 2005 to 120,000 in 2019. Correspondingly, the number of deer-vehicle wrecks has dropped from 174.5 to 150.7 per billion miles traveled during the same period. “In the mid-2000s, we were at a peak of deer population and deer accidents,”
Harvest is typically around 150,000 ... 25% less than the "glory years" of 1990-2010 ... IL just added a single shot rifle to the weapons mix on 1-1-2023 along with X-bows for all last few years ... I suspect State Farm and other insurance companies would approve adding hand grenades or RPGs. I don't even see deer like the deer I killed 25 years ago.
Harvest is typically around 150,000 ... 25% less than the "glory years" of 1990-2010 ... IL just added a single shot rifle to the weapons mix on 1-1-2023 along with X-bows for all last few years ... I suspect State Farm and other insurance companies would approve adding hand grenades or RPGs. I don't even see deer like the deer I killed 25 years ago.
