Wall
- Thread starter Mortenson
- Start date
Because there is a need does not make it ok. Yes, we need people to work low wage jobs - make it easier to LEGALLY - work here. Just because someone is short on money doesn’t make it ok to illegally catch fish or poach deer to sell them. This is not about immigrants- it is about illegal immigrants.
Just skimmed thru this thread. Interesting as I just returned from my ranch in Mexico this morning. I have spent a large portion of my life up and down the Rio Grande in Texas and owned property in Mexico over 20 years. With that my opinions are about as meaningful as anyone else's...or not
I am all for border security ! I am all for managing immigration ! I fully support Trump as our president .
All that said I see a different approach to immigration and border security than what is being proposed. I do not believe the wall will work nor is a good idea. Lets remember they dug a tunnel over a mile with ventilation, transportation, and lighting and came up in Chapo Guzmans toilet in a top security prison. The truth is illegal immigration could be stopped overnight if the will was there without a wall. Where I am in Mexico only 2 miles from the river, people cross everyday and have been for years. It is well known on both sides of the river.Costs $800 to cross though many go back and forth routinely working on ranches in the U.S. then returning all the time to there homes in Mexico.
Consider this approach:
1) Give every illegal alien living in the U.S. 1 year to present themselves for a work visa[ or whatever you want to call it ] Then they are in the country legally, pay taxes and are allowed to legally use the system. After this is completed if an illegal is found in the country put them in jail. Forget flying them back to the mother country. They are in the U.S breaking the law. Arrest them.
2) Use all the resources that are already at the border to stop illegal immigration. There are already blimps with untold technology along the entire border. There are helicopters, airplanes , border patrol, airboats, etc already in place. Change the laws where they can apprehend and/or simply stop the migration as they cross or before. . Put teeth into the apprehension. Put the national guard there if necessary. Would be cheaper than the wall. It is entirely possible to stop illegal immigration at the border without a fence and can be done more economically.
3) Strengthen the laws for hiring undocumented foreign workers. Put employers in jail if necessary or certainly make fines onerous enough and enforced where it is an impediment. Hardly a ranch in S. Texas doesn't have undocumented workers. But at same time make it easier to be vetted and receive documentation. Many of these worker are paid competitive wages and add much value where U.S. citizens are simply unavailable tor unwilling to provide the same service.
Ask the landowners along the river if they think illegal immigration can be stopped. They deal with it every day. There are literally roads used for transport. Everyone knows this. But politically its a hands off situation.No real will to deal with the situation just much political crying and wringing of hands
I am all for border security ! I am all for managing immigration ! I fully support Trump as our president .
All that said I see a different approach to immigration and border security than what is being proposed. I do not believe the wall will work nor is a good idea. Lets remember they dug a tunnel over a mile with ventilation, transportation, and lighting and came up in Chapo Guzmans toilet in a top security prison. The truth is illegal immigration could be stopped overnight if the will was there without a wall. Where I am in Mexico only 2 miles from the river, people cross everyday and have been for years. It is well known on both sides of the river.Costs $800 to cross though many go back and forth routinely working on ranches in the U.S. then returning all the time to there homes in Mexico.
Consider this approach:
1) Give every illegal alien living in the U.S. 1 year to present themselves for a work visa[ or whatever you want to call it ] Then they are in the country legally, pay taxes and are allowed to legally use the system. After this is completed if an illegal is found in the country put them in jail. Forget flying them back to the mother country. They are in the U.S breaking the law. Arrest them.
2) Use all the resources that are already at the border to stop illegal immigration. There are already blimps with untold technology along the entire border. There are helicopters, airplanes , border patrol, airboats, etc already in place. Change the laws where they can apprehend and/or simply stop the migration as they cross or before. . Put teeth into the apprehension. Put the national guard there if necessary. Would be cheaper than the wall. It is entirely possible to stop illegal immigration at the border without a fence and can be done more economically.
3) Strengthen the laws for hiring undocumented foreign workers. Put employers in jail if necessary or certainly make fines onerous enough and enforced where it is an impediment. Hardly a ranch in S. Texas doesn't have undocumented workers. But at same time make it easier to be vetted and receive documentation. Many of these worker are paid competitive wages and add much value where U.S. citizens are simply unavailable tor unwilling to provide the same service.
Ask the landowners along the river if they think illegal immigration can be stopped. They deal with it every day. There are literally roads used for transport. Everyone knows this. But politically its a hands off situation.No real will to deal with the situation just much political crying and wringing of hands
H20fwler
5 year old buck +
Companies and businesses that condone and hire illegal immigrants should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law same as the illegals. Greed is the only reason they do it, same as when they ship jobs out of the country and turn around and send the products right back to the USA...I'm all for heavy tariffs on all that crap.
Legal immigrants are fine...illegal are thieves and trespassing, there is a right way to come into the country. Build the wall and have the military patrol it...the rest of the world controls and protects their borders!
Legal immigrants are fine...illegal are thieves and trespassing, there is a right way to come into the country. Build the wall and have the military patrol it...the rest of the world controls and protects their borders!
Tree Spud
5 year old buck +
Baker ... you do realize that nobody expects the wall is the final solution?
The reality is that liberals have created a system that allows illegals to gain entry and then indoctrinate them in the DNC ... becoming a new pool of voters.
Many of us on the other side understand this and are frustrated that our guys (Repubs) won't take a stance. The Wall simply represents the beach head we have to breakdown.
All politicians are the problem, they have amazing lives, isolation & protection from what we deal with on a daily basis, and ongoing wealth because for them, solving a problem means a final result.
Trump is spear heading the fight between socialism and a representative democracy ... the first person in many years that is actually willing to take on both parties. In my mind, this is the right fight at the right time. You can't get to changing policy, process, & laws until you defeat the symbolism that supports the hate mongering and lies that allows unverified and potentially dangerous people to enter the country.
In short, until you slay the dragon, you can't recapture the castle ...
I don't know what anyone expects nor claim such. I'm merely offering my thoughts after having spent many years on both sides of the Rio Grande River dividing Texas from Mexico. I do see the Wall as a political metaphor for addressing the immigration issue and as such has value. However, the financial cost will be stupendous, the actual effects negligible , the impact on ranchers along the river amounting to govt thievery of land all with far more elegant solutions available.
i personally know politicians that I find to be of the highest ethical standards trying their best to serve the diverse demands of a polarized constituency. I am not prepared to make any all inclusive statements about politicians in general but appreciate there are some that fit your description .
Most of the Mexicans I know that make their living across the border could give a flip about liberal/conservative voting or anything political. They just want a job sending much of the money back to their families.
Illegal immigrants around here will provide a variety of work at a price somewhat below the local American citizens. We hear Americans won’t work for wages the illegals are willing to work for. That is because American citizens - on many of these jobs - are paying in social security and Medicare tax, workman’s comp, all applicable Fed, state and local taxes, paying for liability insurance/bonding - and no telling what else. If the illegal immigrants had to pay all that - they wouldn’t be working dirt cheap, either.
I agree, that is why my first point is to provide work visas and have them pay taxes on same scale as anyone else. Then it becomes a question of choosing the better worker. If employers choose not to cooperate then they should be held criminally liable with enforced penalties.
Reasonable point. Then fine the employers significantly. Make it hurt. As for illegal aliens refusing to comply, then yes put them in jail. Would be cheaper than flying them back to the homeland. I live in a small town in central La. There are DAILY immigration flights taking illegals back to central/south America. That with a force of officers on board. Lets calculate the cost of that and see what a cost effective offset is.
Catscratch
5 year old buck +
I do not think our boarders should be a free for all to who ever wants to cross. I also do not believe a wall in itself will stop or change anything. The wall will have to be manned and people will have to be vetted. It will be cheaper in the long run to man the boarder and turn people back then to tax citizens to make up for their criminal and economic effects. I do not want people working here that is not contributing to maintaining the roadways. I do not want someone with kids in the education system not paying into that district. I do not want someone using the health care facilities for free. etc. People who cost the system should pay into the system (taxes). Illegal immigrants who work do provide a serve that is useful, but they shouldn't do it for free. I'm referring to the hard working immigrants with those statements. The gang banger and cartel types bring an obvious cost to our society that is much more costly.
I'm big on military. I say part of every privates tour should be a stay guarding our boarder. I know military is costly but I see huge benefits to service in that it can produce productive citizens post service. I've witnessed many young men and women who where destined to spend their life working at McDonalds (or worse) end up being very productive people after 4 years of discipline.
I'm with Baker in that there is already tech out there that could stop illegal entrance, it just isn't politically popular to do it. The wall is symbolic but could be useful if it's manned. I say build it, man it with military, keep non-contributors out, and help build productive citizens from within. Tax dollars will pay for it, but we are already paying the costs of illegal immigration and this way we end up with more pluses on our side.
I'm big on military. I say part of every privates tour should be a stay guarding our boarder. I know military is costly but I see huge benefits to service in that it can produce productive citizens post service. I've witnessed many young men and women who where destined to spend their life working at McDonalds (or worse) end up being very productive people after 4 years of discipline.
I'm with Baker in that there is already tech out there that could stop illegal entrance, it just isn't politically popular to do it. The wall is symbolic but could be useful if it's manned. I say build it, man it with military, keep non-contributors out, and help build productive citizens from within. Tax dollars will pay for it, but we are already paying the costs of illegal immigration and this way we end up with more pluses on our side.
4wanderingeyes
5 year old buck +
Tree Spud
5 year old buck +
If the wall would have negligible effects, the question becomes why are the Dems fighting against it so hard?
I cant think of anything the Democrats have supported Trump on?
Tree Spud
5 year old buck +
Northbound
5 year old buck +
I actually find that they are more expensive than citizen labor. However they are worth it it terms of reliability and accountability. Seems native citizens have a general feeling of entitlement. Likely instilled by our own kind always trying to be 'fair' (that's a word I hate) and creating system after system.
I truly believe the Republican party will eventually become the typical Mexicans choice party. They have similar core values. And please don't put this wall on all Republican voters. Some of us think this kind of spending is ridiculous.
Stop the handouts to all people- citizens and aliens alike and this problem cures itself while spending less. It's so simple, and cost effective
Catscratch
5 year old buck +
Nothing. I know people who have gone against their own belief system to spite Trump and refuse to admit anything has gone well with him in office. It's truly the end of the world type of thing to many people.
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Mortenson
5 year old buck +
LOL! Neither can I ...
Like just announcing some troops are coming home. I can't remember a time they didn't want troops sent home. And now they're mad about it. If Rand praises the decision and the liberals are mad about, it tells me Trump probably made a good decision. He campaigned that he would do that, so it's not far-fetched to see it happen. He didn't win the election because of his big ego or stupid tv show, he won because of what he promised the voters.
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cavey
5 year old buck +
Build a wall, don't build a wall... the problem with this country is that every elected official thinks they have a clear mandate granted to them by the voters. "The voters" elected me... and they want a wall." When the reality is this country is split - when you have 50/50 split its called a divorce and nobody seems to get that. Far polar right and far polar left with nobody willing to compromise and we yo yo back and forth in this quagmire every election.
Do we need a wall - Maybe, in some spots we need a dam nice one... other spots what ever. Border security will likely never be perfect and its a black hole for money... there are too many 700 dollar hammers nailing 1000 dollar fence staples into 3,000,000 fence posts. Baker has some good points, create and enforce a Taxable guest worker visa system, and take a few others ideas from here -- restrict the handouts, limit the anchor baby loophole.... take 10 of the most chronic illegal alien employers from each state and toss them in jail for 20 years... then start shooting anyone coming across the border illegally.... eventually the only ones sneaking across are going to be the ones you want to shoot anyways (kidding - well kind of). And the detainment centers.... give everyone a bottle of water and a cheap blanket, put them in a 3 sided fenced area with the open side facing the border and DONE.
This last wave of high profile immigrants is a politically created and a politically pushed forward wave or hoard of pawns. Games like this are pure BS and some of the politicians and political groups behind it should be held accountable. We are a nation of immigrants and we need immigration - but legal and sensible immigration... what we have got now is BS and 90 percent of the solutions being tossed around are BS.
We have clueless liberals and whack job conservatives driving this country down a dead end road...
I don't have all the answers and do not pretend to but I can see a skunk by its stripes and wont pet that kitty and Im not about to waste time messing around with it when I know I have a cheap, fast and easy way to deal with it. There are common sense ideas out there... and this country needs to wake up and get back to the core of what we are supposed be as Americans living in a Constitutional Republic.
Do we need a wall - Maybe, in some spots we need a dam nice one... other spots what ever. Border security will likely never be perfect and its a black hole for money... there are too many 700 dollar hammers nailing 1000 dollar fence staples into 3,000,000 fence posts. Baker has some good points, create and enforce a Taxable guest worker visa system, and take a few others ideas from here -- restrict the handouts, limit the anchor baby loophole.... take 10 of the most chronic illegal alien employers from each state and toss them in jail for 20 years... then start shooting anyone coming across the border illegally.... eventually the only ones sneaking across are going to be the ones you want to shoot anyways (kidding - well kind of). And the detainment centers.... give everyone a bottle of water and a cheap blanket, put them in a 3 sided fenced area with the open side facing the border and DONE.
This last wave of high profile immigrants is a politically created and a politically pushed forward wave or hoard of pawns. Games like this are pure BS and some of the politicians and political groups behind it should be held accountable. We are a nation of immigrants and we need immigration - but legal and sensible immigration... what we have got now is BS and 90 percent of the solutions being tossed around are BS.
We have clueless liberals and whack job conservatives driving this country down a dead end road...
I don't have all the answers and do not pretend to but I can see a skunk by its stripes and wont pet that kitty and Im not about to waste time messing around with it when I know I have a cheap, fast and easy way to deal with it. There are common sense ideas out there... and this country needs to wake up and get back to the core of what we are supposed be as Americans living in a Constitutional Republic.
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