Thoughts on culling bucks with poor genetic potential.

[omicron1792]

"Except if the 10 pointers pass on more of their genes then the next generation will have genetics for larger antlers."

I'm looking at that quote of yours. It just sounds to me like you think a 10 is bigger than an 8. Not that it matters, no biggie.

10 was an example. Could say inches. Mass. That’s not the point.

All the studies you posted used points. Can measure that with picture, not darting them

 

[omicron1792]

There are several published studies on free range deer. Look up the Comanche Ranch one or the King Ranch one.

White-tailed Deer: Are Antler Characteristics Inherited?

tpwd.texas.gov

Read point five from Kerr large scale study.

1. You can improve a herd by selectively removing inferior antlered deer and allowing the deer with good antlers to breed.

 

[BenAllgood]

White-tailed Deer: Are Antler Characteristics Inherited?

tpwd.texas.gov

Read point five from Kerr large scale study.

1. You can improve a herd by selectively removing inferior antlered deer and allowing the deer with good antlers to breed.

Here you go. Here's another one showing you can't do it on the scale you're working with.

Culling of Bucks Doesn’t Lead To Bigger Bucks, Research Says | Caesar Kleberg Wildlife Research Institute

SAN ANTONIO — In the free-ranging deer world, where big antlers continues to be the driving force, culling and heritability traits, specifically heritability of big antlers remains a hot-button topic. Some 15 years ago, scientists at the Caesar Kleberg Wildlife Research Institute initiated a...

www.ckwri.tamuk.edu

 

[omicron1792]

Here you go. Here's another one showing you can't do it on the scale you're working with.

Culling of Bucks Doesn’t Lead To Bigger Bucks, Research Says | Caesar Kleberg Wildlife Research Institute

SAN ANTONIO — In the free-ranging deer world, where big antlers continues to be the driving force, culling and heritability traits, specifically heritability of big antlers remains a hot-button topic. Some 15 years ago, scientists at the Caesar Kleberg Wildlife Research Institute initiated a...

www.ckwri.tamuk.edu

So. If you read my posts I have said 3 times I agree with that statement. Probably impacts little on a small scale.

However, what if we all changed attitudes. Added that as part of all the things we teach. Have kids and new hunters shoot spikes instead of basket 8 1.5 year olds?

 

[BenAllgood]

So. If you read my posts I have said 3 times I agree with that statement. Probably impacts little on a small scale.

However, what if we all changed attitudes. Added that as part of all the things we teach. Have kids and new hunters shoot spikes instead of basket 8 1.5 year olds?

Here's another one:

https://www.ckwri.tamuk.edu/sites/default/files/publication/pdfs/2022/supplemental_news_genetics.pdf

 

[omicron1792]

Here you go. Here's another one showing you can't do it on the scale you're working with.

Culling of Bucks Doesn’t Lead To Bigger Bucks, Research Says | Caesar Kleberg Wildlife Research Institute

SAN ANTONIO — In the free-ranging deer world, where big antlers continues to be the driving force, culling and heritability traits, specifically heritability of big antlers remains a hot-button topic. Some 15 years ago, scientists at the Caesar Kleberg Wildlife Research Institute initiated a...

www.ckwri.tamuk.edu

Cool study! Thanks for posting. Has some flaws but man they went after it. Thanks.

 

[omicron1792]

Here's another one:

https://www.ckwri.tamuk.edu/sites/default/files/publication/pdfs/2022/supplemental_news_genetics.pdf

That’s an opinion piece not a study. And it also comes from same Texas AM that is clearly biased by that earlier study

 

[Baker]

I do not portend to be an expert . Like most I just offer opinions based on experience and what I have studied. So, to be specific with an opinion...I do not think there is a person alive that can tell what the genetic potential of the 3rd deer you posted { the 4 pt } will be.

What I believe without reservation is the only way for that deer to achieve his genetic potential is for nutrition to be 100% 365 days a year from before he was conceived by his mother. Then give him the opportunity to reach full maturity...which is much older than the published conventional wisdom { How many studies are done with herds allowing the deer to die of old age }

 

[BenAllgood]

Cool study! Thanks for posting. Has some flaws but man they went after it. Thanks.

Check out the research pool from MSU deer lab on the subject.

Deer Ecology & Management Lab

The MSU Deer Lab is an educational unit of Mississippi State University. We focus on white-tailed deer research, management, and education.

www.msudeer.msstate.edu

 

[Catscratch]

For a long time I've gone with the idea that you can't really tell what they are going to turn into at a young age. IE - spike yearlings might become booners in a few years... if you don't shoot them. My question on this relies solely on the idea that a buck has mostly displayed his "potential" by his 4th or 5th yr (when I say potential it's not their max size, but rather a even 8 isn't likely to turn into an even 12 at that point). Of course Baker comes along and proves that wrong! Such a nerd!

 

[omicron1792]

Check out the research pool from MSU deer lab on the subject.

Deer Ecology & Management Lab

The MSU Deer Lab is an educational unit of Mississippi State University. We focus on white-tailed deer research, management, and education.

www.msudeer.msstate.edu

Man that’s good stuff too. Love the MSU deer lab.

They do overlook one thing.

If deer are free range, so we can’t control genetics, can we control nutrition?

So we can keep the same deer around to make them eat better, but can’t keep them around to control their genetics?

That’s a stretch.

All the nutrition studies I saw were in pen raised deer. Those deer had to come to feeder to eat the 8 or 16% protein. What about free range deer that come every 3rd night?

I think my does are pretty consistent and I think their nutrition has definitely been a part of increasing antler size on my farm.

As far as feeding the bucks? Not in free range deer.

 

[BenAllgood]

Man that’s good stuff too. Love the MSU deer lab.

They do overlook one thing.

If deer are free range, so we can’t control genetics, can we control nutrition?

So we can keep the same deer around to make them eat better, but can’t keep them around to control their genetics?

That’s a stretch.

All the nutrition studies I saw were in pen raised deer. Those deer had to come to feeder to eat the 8 or 16% protein. What about free range deer that come every 3rd night?

I think my does are pretty consistent and I think their nutrition has definitely been a part of increasing antler size on my farm.

As far as feeding the bucks? Not in free range deer.

But, your does that hang tight to your property are producing bucks that will disperse miles away from your property. Bucks miles away from your property are breeding your does. The genetics are dispersed and traded around.

 

[Baker]

Man that’s good stuff too. Love the MSU deer lab.

They do overlook one thing.

If deer are free range, so we can’t control genetics, can we control nutrition?

So we can keep the same deer around to make them eat better, but can’t keep them around to control their genetics?

That’s a stretch.

All the nutrition studies I saw were in pen raised deer. Those deer had to come to feeder to eat the 8 or 16% protein. What about free range deer that come every 3rd night?

I think my does are pretty consistent and I think their nutrition has definitely been a part of increasing antler size on my farm.

As far as feeding the bucks? Not in free range deer.

It takes scale...large scale ...to manage a deer herd. With scale you absolutely can impact nutrition on a deer herd. With scale you absolutely can supplementally feed deer and reap the benefits. With supplemental feeding in many instances you can increase antler size 10-15% ..which also says something about the nutritional capacity of most properties. Which also points to nutrition many times is a limiter to deer expressing their full genetic potential.

These points make the idea of culling on smaller properties { less than 10,000 acres? } even less possible. I contend most folks are managing habitat to try to influence deer behavior vs. managing a deer herd.

 

[Turkish]

Except if the 10 pointers pass on more of their genes then the next generation will have genetics for larger antlers. It may be small but there is 100 percent chance what I say is true.

Go to any high fence and you will see breeding for larger antlers is very real. Even large open areas like baker show this. It’s not just he feeds them well. He watches and keeps large bucks in the population, and the more they pass on their genes the larger the next generation has the potential to be.

There’s been research on this. You cannot impact it with selective buck harvest only.

MSU Deer Lab podcast episode 032. And I think Draeger was on a subsequent episode that further discussed some of this same stuff.

 

[SwampCat]

I think some of what we are talking about is area specific also - whether genetic or nutritional. For example, the Gulf Coastal Plain - where I live and hunt is just as likely to see a decrease in antler quality after the age of 4.5. I have seen these bucks, more often than not, lose antler inches after age 4.5. I know folks who feed protein in this area, and their deer do not typically display a loss in inches after 4.5

 

[Tree Spud]

Problem there is farmer you don’t always know with the doe, can look at buck and tell.

My understanding it’s nutrition of the doe that affects the rack, not as much their genes. I’d so I’d like to know where I’m wrong.

If genetics are of much lessor importance than nutrition, then how does culling have any impact on antler or rack size?

 

[omicron1792]

It takes scale...large scale ...to manage a deer herd. With scale you absolutely can impact nutrition on a deer herd. With scale you absolutely can supplementally feed deer and reap the benefits. With supplemental feeding in many instances you can increase antler size 10-15% ..which also says something about the nutritional capacity of most properties. Which also points to nutrition many times is a limiter to deer expressing their full genetic potential.

These points make the idea of culling on smaller properties { less than 10,000 acres? } even less possible. I contend most folks are managing habitat to try to influence deer behavior vs. managing a deer herd.

I think you’re right.

Would you say state policies on buck limits, season lengths, antler size can make a difference? Makes me rethink some of my thoughts on those issues

 

[omicron1792]

If genetics are of much lessor importance than nutrition, then how does culling have any impact on antler or rack size?

So ive read most of the data people have posted, many times. Most say nutrition and habitat king. Some even say it’s that way even for high fence deer (selection bias helps too).

My whole question is have we undervalued genetics. And, one of my points is that it is really really hard to do good studies to prove the issue.

 

[S.T.Fanatic]

Baker. You have more knowledge than me In your pinky.

HOWEVER

you’re not dealing apples to apples. That top picture of yours clearly shows a deer with great genetics. Look at how thick the antlers are and the height and mass. They would be a once in a lifetime deer to Most hunters.

You have a unique experiment going. But to compare that deer with the one I posted In original thread is just not realistic.

Most hunters will never see a 6 year old deer. Let your "cull" buck make it to 6 years old (like the live pic Baker posted) and compare it to the picture Baker posted before making your apples to apples assumption.

 

[omicron1792]

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I think some of what we are talking about is area specific also - whether genetic or nutritional. For example, the Gulf Coastal Plain - where I live and hunt is just as likely to see a decrease in antler quality after the age of 4.5. I have seen these bucks, more often than not, lose antler inches after age 4.5. I know folks who feed protein in this area, and their deer do not typically display a loss in inches after 4.5

One of the articles spoke to that. Sandier the soil the less minerals they hold.