Thoughts on culling bucks with poor genetic potential.

[omicron1792]

I am probably the village idiot here. But, if you are worried about culling for potential antler development why not cull the does who carry the traits leading to bucks with inferior genetic potential? Hmmmm....?

Problem there is farmer you don’t always know with the doe, can look at buck and tell.

My understanding it’s nutrition of the doe that affects the rack, not as much their genes. I’d so I’d like to know where I’m wrong.

 

[FarmerDan]

Problem there is farmer you don’t always know with the doe, can look at buck and tell.

My understanding it’s nutrition of the doe that affects the rack, not as much their genes. I’d so I’d like to know where I’m wrong.

Think about that for a while....

No geneticist would dismiss the impact of traits of both parents (and ancestral lines? ) on progeny. It's noted in the article at the end of the link below. But you and others will read it and take from it what you want.
There's good research on the possible effects of "culling inferior" bucks but it's inconclusive. In wild herds the idea is great but the results are impossible to deduce.

I think we can all agree on the role of nutrition for both sexes but beyond that?
https://www.deeranddeerhunting.com/content/articles/facts-and-myths-about-deer-antler-genetics

 

[Hoytvectrix]

One thing that I rarely see brought up by deer biologists or any hunters, is that deer herds have been naturally selecting for larger antlers, it is just over hundreds of thousands or millions of years. There is obviously some value in it, even if it is not statistically detectable within even a few generations. I think if people feel like they are helping their herd and aren't having to feel guilty about shooting a smaller-antlered deer, everyone wins - unless of course the deer wasn't mature and didn't have a chance to express its full potential. I think the culling of aggressive, mature, but smaller-antlered bucks probably helps the herd in the immediate short term, and probably helps reverse the antler porn trend we are seeing.

 

[Catscratch]

My thoughts on all this. Nothing I do short of providing stress free environments and gobs of nutrition is going to change genetics at all. Those two factors might turn on some antler genes if I keep it up multigenerationally.


But, if I have 10 bucks on the place.... all over 3.5yrs of age... 6 eight pointers and 4 ten pointers.... and I shoot all the 8 pointers.... then the bucks that will grow old on my place will be the 10 pointers. If I'd rather have old 10 pointers on the place than old 8 pointers then this might work. 8 pointers would still keep being born though. Genetics in the population wouldn't change, just the individuals living there.

 

[omicron1792]

My thoughts on all this. Nothing I do short of providing stress free environments and gobs of nutrition is going to change genetics at all. Those two factors might turn on some antler genes if I keep it up multigenerationally.


But, if I have 10 bucks on the place.... all over 3.5yrs of age... 6 eight pointers and 4 ten pointers.... and I shoot all the 8 pointers.... then the bucks that will grow old on my place will be the 10 pointers. If I'd rather have old 10 pointers on the place than old 8 pointers then this might work. 8 pointers would still keep being born though. Genetics in the population wouldn't change, just the individuals living there.

Except if the 10 pointers pass on more of their genes then the next generation will have genetics for larger antlers. It may be small but there is 100 percent chance what I say is true.

Go to any high fence and you will see breeding for larger antlers is very real. Even large open areas like baker show this. It’s not just he feeds them well. He watches and keeps large bucks in the population, and the more they pass on their genes the larger the next generation has the potential to be.

 

[omicron1792]

Think about that for a while....

No geneticist would dismiss the impact of traits of both parents (and ancestral lines? ) on progeny. It's noted in the article at the end of the link below. But you and others will read it and take from it what you want.
There's good research on the possible effects of "culling inferior" bucks but it's inconclusive. In wild herds the idea is great but the results are impossible to deduce.

I think we can all agree on the role of nutrition for both sexes but beyond that?
https://www.deeranddeerhunting.com/content/articles/facts-and-myths-about-deer-antler-genetics

Farmer. You are to farming as I am to genetics. It’s in my wheel house.

Of course the mom plays a role. How much, I don’t know. I do know maternal nutrition , especially diet immediately pre and during gestation is key. Probably during lactation also, though deer wean pretty quickly.

What I am saying, from a genetics standpoint, in a wild herd, it’s impossible to know the mother’s impact on antlers (maybe not impossible but damn damn hard). If I am looking at a button buck and I know he was small last year too, I could cull that deer knowing he will not pass this particular genetics on to the gene pool.

Large studies on these kind of things are next to impossible. No money in it, no large scale donors to fund it. So a lot of it we have to make our best guess, run it around the water cooler here, and go with it.

 

[roymunson]

my take on this is while I may not be impacting the offspring genetics. I am leaving more food and age for the bucks who actually have the genetics to become big deer.

Not all deer have the genetics to be say, 150" deer. My example is that in 2020 I mis-aged a deer that scored 135" and ended up being a 3 year old. That deer had the frame and potential to get big and be 150"+ as a 4 or 5 year old.
In 2022, I killed a 5 year old buck (born the same year as my buck 2 years before) who scored 134". My 5 year old would never reach 150". I'd have been better off killing that buck 2 years earlier as a 120" 3 year old and letting the younger buck grow into something bigger.

I don't think I'm going to affect the genetics, but I do desire to chase a 5 year old with a big rack on him. If I'd killed the "dud" racked buck in 2020 and let the buck with potential grow, I'd have had a big buck to chase in 2022 and still got to tag 2 bucks.

This is using the presumption that a 150" is the goal, which isn't always the case. I had a blast shooting that 5 year old, but for all the effort and work I'd put in to kill him, it would have been cool for him to be a big racked deer.

I don't think I'm going to affect genetics. But I do think there are times you can peg a deer at 3 that isn't going to be a giant, just like you can peg a deer at 3 that could be a giant if he gets nutrition and age.

 

[Mortenson]

Except if the 10 pointers pass on more of their genes then the next generation will have genetics for larger antlers. It may be small but there is 100 percent chance what I say is true.

Go to any high fence and you will see breeding for larger antlers is very real. Even large open areas like baker show this. It’s not just he feeds them well. He watches and keeps large bucks in the population, and the more they pass on their genes the larger the next generation has the potential to be.

Again, would you rather have monster 8s or tiny 10s? Point count doesn't tell me much about the size of a deer's rack. Give me the frame. Forget score.

 

[omicron1792]

Again, would you rather have monster 8s or tiny 10s? Point count doesn't tell me much about the size of a deer's rack. Give me the frame. Forget score.

But that doesn’t answer the question we are talking about.

We are talking about genetics of large antlered bucks. Sure, keep a big thick antlered 8 over a skinny 10. That’s a matter of choice. And we should all allow the deer we want to harvest mature into older age for full potential.

Harvesting deer early that don’t have the rack potential (no matter what metric you choose) allows those that do have that potential to pass on more genes. How much is an impact can that have, my guess very small on an individual scale. But it’s 100 percent fact the deer you culled would pass on no more genes, and the ones you didn’t will. And we know from deer farms in high fences you do that enough and the antlers get bigger.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

But that doesn’t answer the question we are talking about.

We are talking about genetics of large antlered bucks. Sure, keep a big thick antlered 8 over a skinny 10. That’s a matter of choice. And we should all allow the deer we want to harvest mature into older age for full potential.

Harvesting deer early that don’t have the rack potential (no matter what metric you choose) allows those that do have that potential to pass on more genes. How much is an impact can that have, my guess very small on an individual scale. But it’s 100 percent fact the deer you culled would pass on no more genes, and the ones you didn’t will. And we know from deer farms in high fences you do that enough and the antlers get bigger.

So if you wait till maturity, you allowed 4 plus years of breeding with those “genes” to be passed. Seems counterintuitive if you think someone could impact antler characteristics

 

[Mortenson]

"Except if the 10 pointers pass on more of their genes then the next generation will have genetics for larger antlers."

I'm looking at that quote of yours. It just sounds to me like you think a 10 is bigger than an 8. Not that it matters, no biggie.

 

[PatinPA]

But that doesn’t answer the question we are talking about.

We are talking about genetics of large antlered bucks. Sure, keep a big thick antlered 8 over a skinny 10. That’s a matter of choice. And we should all allow the deer we want to harvest mature into older age for full potential.

Harvesting deer early that don’t have the rack potential (no matter what metric you choose) allows those that do have that potential to pass on more genes. How much is an impact can that have, my guess very small on an individual scale. But it’s 100 percent fact the deer you culled would pass on no more genes, and the ones you didn’t will. And we know from deer farms in high fences you do that enough and the antlers get bigger.

I get what you're saying and agree with you for the most part. I just don't think it's enough of a factor to ever make a difference. There are just way too many variables in a wild herd. The doe genes for one. Sure you shoot a small buck to take it out of the gene pool but during the rut how many small bucks cruise in from a neighbor's property. I'm pretty sure I've seen studies that doe's have two fawns with different fathers often. I think the best thing you can do is provide the best nutrition you can and let them grow to maturity and see what you end up with. If you see one with potential let it walk and hopefully it turns into something special.

I have this one walking around. I think it may be 2.5. Might call it a cull buck but it's one I'd let live just to see what kind of oddity it turns in to. Now I really have no say it what makes it through the season around me. I can just not shoot it myself and hope it makes it.

 

[BenAllgood]

Large studies on these kind of things are next to impossible. No money in it, no large scale donors to fund it. So a lot of it we have to make our best guess, run it around the water cooler here, and go with it.

They have been done, and they have shown you can't selectively harvest to improve genetics by any significant amount. Here's one:

https://doi.org/10.1002/jwmg.236

 

[omicron1792]

So if you wait till maturity, you allowed 4 plus years of breeding with those “genes” to be passed. Seems counterintuitive if you think someone could impact antler characteristics

That’s why I’m saying don’t wait till maturity to harvest bucks with little potential. That is the question on first post and since.

 

[omicron1792]

They have been done, and they have shown you can't selectively harvest to improve genetics by any significant amount. Here's one:

https://doi.org/10.1002/jwmg.236

Dude. That was a modeled free range scenario. Thats EXACTLY what I was talking about. Doing this with any size and validity in REAL world is almost impossible.

That article literally made my point. I’m not trying to be ugly. That was best they could do, have some geneticist model a free range scenario.

 

[Baker]

back from burning 40 widows piled up this summer. Smoky mess.

Bluntly I don't think anyone should be thinking about culling. Especially smaller landowners that do not have the scale to manage a deer herd. Is it ok to shoot a 3 or 4 yr old or older that might have a smaller rack than other bucks? Sure. But have no belief that A) you have removed an inferior deer B) you have impacted the genetics at all But c) you have removed a mouth from the herd and that may have value.

If I can get this to post I'll show you a nice 6 yr old 8 pt that I suspect anyone might think would be an appropriate deer to take out. Then I'll show you him the following year. Point... no-one knows what a deer can do over time. They go up. They go down!

 

[omicron1792]

I get what you're saying and agree with you for the most part. I just don't think it's enough of a factor to ever make a difference. There are just way too many variables in a wild herd. The doe genes for one. Sure you shoot a small buck to take it out of the gene pool but during the rut how many small bucks cruise in from a neighbor's property. I'm pretty sure I've seen studies that doe's have two fawns with different fathers often. I think the best thing you can do is provide the best nutrition you can and let them grow to maturity and see what you end up with. If you see one with potential let it walk and hopefully it turns into something special.

I have this one walking around. I think it may be 2.5. Might call it a cull buck but it's one I'd let live just to see what kind of oddity it turns in to. Now I really have no say it what makes it through the season around me. I can just not shoot it myself and hope it makes it.
View attachment 60478

Do you live by me? Looks like one I have at my place too! Ha

I agree it makes no difference on individual scale. But would it on say 2-3000 acres of a cooperative? Cull agreed upon poor genetics. Good genetics must reach 4.5 years old to shoot.

 

[omicron1792]

back from burning 40 widows piled up this summer. Smoky mess.

Bluntly I don't think anyone should be thinking about culling. Especially smaller landowners that do not have the scale to manage a deer herd. Is it ok to shoot a 3 or 4 yr old or older that might have a smaller rack than other bucks? Sure. But have no belief that A) you have removed an inferior deer B) you have impacted the genetics at all But c) you have removed a mouth from the herd and that may have value.

If I can get this to post I'll show you a nice 6 yr old 8 pt that I suspect anyone might think would be an appropriate deer to take out. Then I'll show you him the following year. Point... no-one knows what a deer can do over time. They go up. They go down!

View attachment 60479View attachment 60480

Baker. You have more knowledge than me In your pinky.

HOWEVER

you’re not dealing apples to apples. That top picture of yours clearly shows a deer with great genetics. Look at how thick the antlers are and the height and mass. They would be a once in a lifetime deer to Most hunters.

You have a unique experiment going. But to compare that deer with the one I posted In original thread is just not realistic.

 

[omicron1792]

My take and I believe the take of people who study deer for a living. Erase the thought of manipulating genetics out of your mind forever! We aren’t touching the genetic blueprint one iota giving our limited knowledge and their unlimited range. There’s literally no telling what that buck will turn into. There’s sooo many more things to worry about.
Now if you need to remove a deer from the landscape because of lack of food I guess we can play that game but man I just feel like it’s too risky to start messing with.

I just respectfully disagree. I’m pretty sure baker thinks of genetics all the time!

 

[BenAllgood]

Dude. That was a modeled free range scenario. Thats EXACTLY what I was talking about. Doing this with any size and validity in REAL world is almost impossible.

That article literally made my point. I’m not trying to be ugly. That was best they could do, have some geneticist model a free range scenario.

There are several published studies on free range deer. Look up the Comanche Ranch one or the King Ranch one.