They continue to impress me

[omicron1792]

And honestly we’re part of the problem. Managing for bigger better deer doesn’t come with “sure anyone can hunt my place” like the old days.

Don’t know what the answer is other then go back to the old days of shoot any buck and go home. And if we did that most of us would stop pouring blood, $ and sweat into this game. I sure would if I’m being honest.

I was gonna post the same thing Bill. Seems like a lot of this post runs counter to other posts on shooting young bucks. I think we have to be honest in our overall view and say that most of what is posted here is better for growing older and bigger bucks.

My farm is in a very poor and rural county. Last census said county had 9k people. I pay property tax there, I buy all my gas and equipment I can there. I use almost zero resources like schools there. I am only person that hunts my land, and I care for it. The overall deer population of the county is better because I’m there. There is a large public hunting area that is in the county if people want to do it.

I’m sorry but I don’t feel bad at all about me being in that county. And just because people poached for years on land as kids and don’t have that land to poach on now (that they have never put a dime into), I have zero sympathy for them there.

 

[omicron1792]

I'm about to close on a property in SW WI where the locals (my neighbor) who I've met, spent time with, etc called me to tell me their family member was selling. They wanted to keep it in the family but nobody in the family could afford it, so the next best thing was to offer it to a known commodity (me, an out of stater) who could afford it. Through our already established relationship, they knew I would be a steward of their family's land and continue to be the good neighbor I already am.

I paid a price that the family couldn't afford, fair market value. Who gets the blame in this scenario?

Great post.

 

[omicron1792]

That is a cool map. I didn't expect to see so many small tracts back in the 30's. It makes sense though since you didn't need as much land to make life go back then.

Here's a current listing for 297 that has multiple smaller tracts listed separately as well.

https://www.landwatch.com/mercer-county-missouri-farms-and-ranches-for-sale/pid/418241607

In Alabama tracts are much larger today than In past. In early 1900s everyone farmed 20-40 acre plots. Now it is large timber farms.

In early 1900s the small plots literally exterminated deer in Alabama. Gone. Zero hunting opportunities. Now with large timber tracts there are more deer than what you can shoot.

 

[SwampCat]

Sorry what’s your take? They kill too many deer?

I just posted my take. What you read was a misfire on my posting

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

I have a little different take on Iowa - my opinion, of course. Iowa hunters recently killed about 110,000 deer. Deer Population estimates vary from 400,000 to about 500,000. If we go with the middle, hunters are taking a little over 24% of the herd on an annual basis. In my home state of AR, we kill 190,000 deer out of an estimated herd of 1,000,000. We kill 19% of our herd. We leave twice as many deer in the woods every year as does Iowa.

We have up to a six week rifle season covering rut. 12 days or ml. Five month bow, including crossbow. Two bucks - both with mg if you want. Gun season covers rut. Dogs allowed. Baiting allowed. We are allowed to hunt all the “wrong” ways. Yet we dont kill as high a percentage of the herd each year as does Iowa. Arkansas is consistently one of the top states for average buck age harvested at 3 yrs old.

As said above, if gun season were held during rut in Iowa, most of the mature bucks would be gone in two years. Our gun season is set to include rut. I had maybe 8 or 9 mature bucks on camera. Pretty sure all but two of them made it - and we killed those two.

Most state deer managers have an annual harvest goal of 20 to 25% of the total population. Iowa is on the high end of that goal and AR is on the low end of that goal. We should be producing more big bucks than Iowa if all it took was putting age on bucks.

I once heard a podcast that said 8% of Iowa was deer cover. About 80% of my county is deer cover. Cover is everywhere in my state. That is why with dogs, bait, and six weeks of rifle season with a two buck limit, we can not kill as large a percentage of our deer as Iowa hunters do, with much more restrictive regulations.

The reason AR is not Iowa is because of nutrition and genetics - not season structure or bag limits. In my area of the state - the West Gulf Coastal Plain, which makes up the southern 1/3 of the state - our average 5+ yr old buck gross scores 111 inches. What does the average 5+ yr old buck score in Iowa.

View attachment 64277

My grand daughter killed this 5 yr old buck last fall. It weighed 195 lbs, on the hoof - which is a very heavy deer for here. I have only seen four deer here that weighed at least 200 lbs - and I used to work game check stations here.
View attachment 64278

Iowa’s regs are not designed to produce big bucks, they are designed to prevent all the deer from being killed.

I have a little different take on Iowa - my opinion, of course. Iowa hunters recently killed about 110,000 deer. Deer Population estimates vary from 400,000 to about 500,000. If we go with the middle, hunters are taking a little over 24% of the herd on an annual basis. In my home state of AR, we kill 190,000 deer out of an estimated herd of 1,000,000. We kill 19% of our herd. We leave twice as many deer in the woods every year as does Iowa.

We have up to a six week rifle season covering rut. 12 days or ml. Five month bow, including crossbow. Two bucks - both with mg if you want. Gun season covers rut. Dogs allowed. Baiting allowed. We are allowed to hunt all the “wrong” ways. Yet we dont kill as high a percentage of the herd each year as does Iowa. Arkansas is consistently one of the top states for average buck age harvested at 3 yrs old.

As said above, if gun season were held during rut in Iowa, most of the mature bucks would be gone in two years. Our gun season is set to include rut. I had maybe 8 or 9 mature bucks on camera. Pretty sure all but two of them made it - and we killed those two.

Most state deer managers have an annual harvest goal of 20 to 25% of the total population. Iowa is on the high end of that goal and AR is on the low end of that goal. We should be producing more big bucks than Iowa if all it took was putting age on bucks.

I once heard a podcast that said 8% of Iowa was deer cover. About 80% of my county is deer cover. Cover is everywhere in my state. That is why with dogs, bait, and six weeks of rifle season with a two buck limit, we can not kill as large a percentage of our deer as Iowa hunters do, with much more restrictive regulations.

The reason AR is not Iowa is because of nutrition and genetics - not season structure or bag limits. In my area of the state - the West Gulf Coastal Plain, which makes up the southern 1/3 of the state - our average 5+ yr old buck gross scores 111 inches. What does the average 5+ yr old buck score in Iowa.

View attachment 64277

My grand daughter killed this 5 yr old buck last fall. It weighed 195 lbs, on the hoof - which is a very heavy deer for here. I have only seen four deer here that weighed at least 200 lbs - and I used to work game check stations here.
View attachment 64278

Iowa’s regs are not designed to produce big bucks, they are designed to prevent all the deer from being killed.

I can buy that to an extent. I’m not an expert on either ar or ia regs but from what little I know I’d say they have a dual mandate. Protect the herd and produce mature bucks. They seem to go hand in hand given the cover limitations you mention. I think Iowa recognizes what it has and is so far doing what it can to protect it. They are managing for age structure by eliminating bait, crossbows, gun during rut, and almost most importantly, making it difficult for out of staters to hunt there. They will eventually give in to one or all four of these things because money will corrupt. It always does and I’m willing to bet on it corrupting here. Crossbows will be legal someday soon because of their lobbyists. Outfitters will get in the pocket of some politician and more nonresident tags will be handed out like skittles. Farmers will cry poor for the billionth time when things slow down and want to sell corn to hunters and some politician will ensure it’s so. When these things happen the quality will absolutely suffer. So I’d say currently the regs are the reason they produce the best deer hunting in the lower 48 for quality bucks. Obviously the habitat is good but the habitat is just as good in parts of Ky, Ohio, Illinois, wisc (though arguably the quality of buck is just as good) mn, Missouri, etc. The difference is the regs in those states are the lowest hole in the bucket for being Iowa.

 

[SwampCat]

I can buy that to an extent. I’m not an expert on either ar or ia regs but from what little I know I’d say they have a dual mandate. Protect the herd and produce mature bucks. They seem to go hand in hand given the cover limitations you mention. I think Iowa recognizes what it has and is so far doing what it can to protect it. They are managing for age structure by eliminating bait, crossbows, gun during rut, and almost most importantly, making it difficult for out of staters to hunt there. They will eventually give in to one or all four of these things because money will corrupt. It always does and I’m willing to bet on it corrupting here. Crossbows will be legal someday soon because of their lobbyists. Outfitters will get in the pocket of some politician and more nonresident tags will be handed out like skittles. Farmers will cry poor for the billionth time when things slow down and want to sell corn to hunters and some politician will ensure it’s so. When these things happen the quality will absolutely suffer. So I’d say currently the regs are the reason they produce the best deer hunting in the lower 48 for quality bucks. Obviously the habitat is good but the habitat is just as good in parts of Ky, Ohio, Illinois, wisc (though arguably the quality of buck is just as good) mn, Missouri, etc. The difference is the regs in those states are the lowest hole in the bucket for being Iowa.

in my opinion, saving bucks for another year is what increases the number of mature bucks. Arkansas does that with an antler point restriction. Arkansas hunters kill a lower percentage of their deer every year, both bucks and does, than does Iowa. At face value, that would also indicate more bucks should live to an older age. Unfortunately, I cannot find any data that shows Iowa gathers any age structure information. But to me, the most obvious factor - would you be so high on Iowa if the average Iowa 5+ yr old buck scored 111?

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

in my opinion, saving bucks for another year is what increases the number of mature bucks. Arkansas does that with an antler point restriction. Arkansas hunters kill a lower percentage of their deer every year, both bucks and does, than does Iowa. At face value, that would also indicate more bucks should live to an older age. Unfortunately, I cannot find any data that shows Iowa gathers any age structure information. But to me, the most obvious factor - would you be so high on Iowa if the average Iowa 5+ yr old buck scored 111?

Right…but I hate to say the obvious part out loud, but your neck of the woods is poor from a nutritional standpoint. it’s not a genetic problem, it’s a nutrition problem. You could bring a whole herd of Iowa deer down and they will regress to the nutrition. A secret a lot of guys in the Eastern part of ark don’t want out is the giants that they grow! I’ve been with some of those duck guys who show me pics of those deer…wow. They are much like an Iowa where they have very little cover and highly nutritious food.
The reason I’m high on Iowa is as a state they embrace what they have. You can’t fault them for saying we’ve got something special here let’s not screw it up. It would be very easy for them to give in to the quick easy money and acquiescence to all the equal opportunity hunting groups. I think they have been vindicated by watching the open market react to their management. Land prices are insane and there’s seemingly no shortage of people vying for an opportunity to hunt there as evident by the multi year wait for a nonresident tag.

 

[SwampCat]

Right…but I hate to say the obvious part out loud, but your neck of the woods is poor from a nutritional standpoint. it’s not a genetic problem, it’s a nutrition problem. You could bring a whole herd of Iowa deer down and they will regress to the nutrition. A secret a lot of guys in the Eastern part of ark don’t want out is the giants that they grow! I’ve been with some of those duck guys who show me pics of those deer…wow. They are much like an Iowa where they have very little cover and highly nutritious food.
The reason I’m high on Iowa is as a state they embrace what they have. You can’t fault them for saying we’ve got something special here let’s not screw it up. It would be very easy for them to give in to the quick easy money and acquiescence to all the equal opportunity hunting groups. I think they have been vindicated by watching the open market react to their management. Land prices are insane and there’s seemingly no shortage of people vying for an opportunity to hunt there as evident by the multi year wait for a nonresident tag.

I agree 100%. We have age and genetics but lack nutrition. The AR delta has all of it, but very limited hunting opportunity. Iowa has nutrition, genetics, and nutrition widespread across most of the state. And to be honest, many of the subpar areas in AR are improving - largely as a result of landowner management - protein feeding and food plots. I saw one deer that weighed over 200 lbs from 1980 until 2019. I have seen three since and a couple more close - all on my property. That improvement will cease when cwd gets here and they ban supplemental feeding. Most of the deer in our state have never seen a row crop field - they have seen a lot of loblolly pine

 

[bwoods11]

Nutrition and antler growth do have a major impact in Iowa. However, the key is the season. If it’s November 8-15 gun season. It would go from top notch to average to shitty in 3 years !

Keep in mind Iowa allows rifles (Straight wall)! Ask anyone that hunts in Iowa, they will tell you the same thing. It’s not a state you can analyze from stats and figures. You have to experience it, to know first hand.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

Nutrition and antler growth do have a major impact in Iowa. However, the key is the season. If it’s November 8-15 gun season. It would go from top notch to average to shitty in 3 years !

Keep in mind Iowa allows rifles (Straight wall)! Ask anyone that hunts in Iowa, they will tell you the same thing. It’s not a state you can analyze from stats and figures. You have to experience it, to know first hand.

But straight wall is a new thing (which you’re obviously familiar). I heard Steve Hansen on the Land podcast recently indicating he thought they and all the other technology may be contributing some to the overall decline in quality that even IA is seeing over the past couple decades.

A 350 legend in an AR is a pretty lethal setup for deer drives compared to a slug gun.

 

[SwampCat]

Nutrition and antler growth do have a major impact in Iowa. However, the key is the season. If it’s November 8-15 gun season. It would go from top notch to average to shitty in 3 years !

Keep in mind Iowa allows rifles (Straight wall)! Ask anyone that hunts in Iowa, they will tell you the same thing. It’s not a state you can analyze from stats and figures. You have to experience it, to know first hand.

The Dec gun season keeps the Iowa herd from being decimated. Our 50 days of modern rifles, dog hunting, rut hunting, baiting, five months of archery - including crossbows - and we still kill a smaller percentage of the herd than they do in Iowa. Our season is that liberal and we only kill kill 19% of the herd. Iowa season is that restrictive and they still kill 25% of the herd. Even as liberal as our seasons are, over 70% of our harvested bucks are at least 3 yrs old. If our seasons were as strict as they are in Iowa, we couldnt drive down the road without hitting a deer. I just got out of a 4000 acre lease where there was nowhere but a road could you see more than 100 yards in any direction - most places barely over 100 feet. That is common here. How many places in Iowa would it be common to have 4000 contiguous acres and not be able to see a deer 100 yards away. I would bet at least 75% of our deer have ever seen a row crop field. My NW MO cousin said “I dont know how you ever kill a deer down there!”

 

[Mortenson]

That's why I like IL's law that it must be a single shot. Keep those spray n pray guys at bay.

 

[Bill]

I heard Steve Hansen on the Land podcast recently

Is he an Outfitter?

 

[cbw]

Good point on the tag allocation. I can see where that obviously impacts residents and land values honestly. Though I’d argue iowas rec land is higher than almost any in the country and it darn sure isn’t just from locals driving it up.

If I were from out of state, I would probably feel the same way about OOS land owners regs. However, I moved back to Iowa in 2006 and have enjoyed the benefits of that decision.

Anecdotally, I have been to about a dozen farm auctions in the past year and I’ve yet to know of a single one to be purchased from someone out of state, (though im sure it happens).

We also have seen just as much aggregation of parcels (the big getting bigger) as we do fragmentation—except possibly near cities like Des Moines or Omaha.

I would concur with T-Max that opening the gates for non-resident owners in Iowa would be a major hit for local hunters, result in rec land prices skyrocketing (for the short term) and lower the herd quality in the long-term.

The benefit to the state economy is that local resident pay WAY more taxes and keep money in the economy than OOS ever will. This has resulted in state revenue increases when people decide to move here motivated primarily by the desire for bigger deer. (I could probably name a dozen or so people).

And no one is keeping people from moving here.

That said, on the original thread topic, it is a battle every year in the state legislature to keep the bad laws off the books. In my opinion, without organizations like Iowa Bowhunters Association and guys like Skip Sligh of IowaWhitetail, the state regs would look way different and hunting quality be much less.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Turkish]

The Dec gun season keeps the Iowa herd from being decimated. Our 50 days of modern rifles, dog hunting, rut hunting, baiting, five months of archery - including crossbows - and we still kill a smaller percentage of the herd than they do in Iowa. Our season is that liberal and we only kill kill 19% of the herd. Iowa season is that restrictive and they still kill 25% of the herd. Even as liberal as our seasons are, over 70% of our harvested bucks are at least 3 yrs old. If our seasons were as strict as they are in Iowa, we couldnt drive down the road without hitting a deer. I just got out of a 4000 acre lease where there was nowhere but a road could you see more than 100 yards in any direction - most places barely over 100 feet. That is common here. How many places in Iowa would it be common to have 4000 contiguous acres and not be able to see a deer 100 yards away. I would bet at least 75% of our deer have ever seen a row crop field. My NW MO cousin said “I dont know how you ever kill a deer down there!”

If it’s that hard to see, how can they estimate the deer herd?

I kid. I’m in MS, so I understand. The only way to reconcile the IA and AR data is:
- population and/or harvest estimates are incorrect OR
- IA hunters are that much more disciplined
- some combination of all of the above

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

If I were from out of state, I would probably feel the same way about OOS land owners regs. However, I moved back to Iowa in 2006 and have enjoyed the benefits of that decision.

Anecdotally, I have been to about a dozen farm auctions in the past year and I’ve yet to know of a single one to be purchased from someone out of state, (though im sure it happens).

We also have seen just as much aggregation of parcels (the big getting bigger) as we do fragmentation—except possibly near cities like Des Moines or Omaha.

I would concur with T-Max that opening the gates for non-resident owners in Iowa would be a major hit for local hunters, result in rec land prices skyrocketing (for the short term) and lower the herd quality in the long-term.

The benefit to the state economy is that local resident pay WAY more taxes and keep money in the economy than OOS ever will. This has resulted in state revenue increases when people decide to move here motivated primarily by the desire for bigger deer. (I could probably name a dozen or so people).

And no one is keeping people from moving here.

That said, on the original thread topic, it is a battle every year in the state legislature to keep the bad laws off the books. In my opinion, without organizations like Iowa Bowhunters Association and guys like Skip Sligh of IowaWhitetail, the state regs would look way different and hunting quality be much less.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I’m not advocating for Iowans to ever let nonresident rules change trust me! There need to be “the last great place” as Montana use to claim. It’s like the Alaskan wilderness, I doubt I’ll ever hunt it, but I love to know it’s there.
Im just saying I can see a nonresidents issue with it but with all due respect they knew the rules when they decided to buy. I have heard of some “creative” residency strategies a few local guys used in the past.
When I find some precious metal on my farm and sell out to a global mining company for hundreds of millions, I will be coming there to team up with guys like skip to keep Iowa great!

 

[SwampCat]

But straight wall is a new thing (which you’re obviously familiar). I heard Steve Hansen on the Land podcast recently indicating he thought they and all the other technology may be contributing some to the overall decline in quality that even IA is seeing over the past couple decades.

A 350 legend in an AR is a pretty lethal setup for deer drives compared to a slug gun.

Our G&F Commissioners are pushing for allowing straight walled cartridge use during ML season and also during the small part of the state in farm country that permits only slug or ml. There are a lot more folks excited about getting to use those cartridges than folks that consider if it is good for the resource.

I am glad we dont have legislators controlling our hunting and fishing regulations. But sometimes non biologist commissioners dont seem to give the resource enough consideration.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

If it’s that hard to see, how can they estimate the deer herd?

I kid. I’m in MS, so I understand. The only way to reconcile the IA and AR data is:
- population and/or harvest estimates are incorrect OR
- IA hunters are that much more disciplined
- some combination of all of the above

I’ve hunted that habitat type swamp speaks of. I had the opposite observation. The carrying capacity was so low because it was very poor habitat. Mainly a monoculture of pine production and at best a couple years of cutover to feed a few deer on what survived the aerial nuking before the pines shaded everything out.

 

[SwampCat]

If it’s that hard to see, how can they estimate the deer herd?

I kid. I’m in MS, so I understand. The only way to reconcile the IA and AR data is:
- population and/or harvest estimates are incorrect OR
- IA hunters are that much more disciplined
- some combination of all of the above

While you either believe all the g&f data or you dont - it is what we have. One thing that most of us in the south understand - while we produce a fair number of 5 yr old bucks - the antlers on those bucks over much of our area do not compare with the antlers on the same aged bucks in the midwest. I would bet if 5 yr old Iowa bucks were carrying the same headgear as 5 yr old south AR pine thicket bucks - the deer hunting community would not be tripping over themselves to get there.

Edit to add - i am not sure living in a subpar deer area is a bad thing

 

[Turkish]

I’ve hunted that habitat type swamp speaks of. I had the opposite observation. The carrying capacity was so low because it was very poor habitat. Mainly a monoculture of pine production and at best a couple years of cutover to feed a few deer on what survived the aerial nuking before the pines shaded everything out.

And yet, places with crappy habitat regularly kill slobs when they let them age… all over the whitetails range.