I planted Frosty Berseem at the same time as the oats this Spring. In some areas, the clover did well. But, there was quite a bit under the oats everywhere when I looked. I have a hope that that'll come back too. I see a few potential outcomes.

1. A big beautiful plot with an interesting mix of Winter Wheat, Frosty Berseem and brassica.
2. One of the three components takes over completely since I always seed too heavily.
3. Weeds

If I get just a big plot of 3, I'll simply spray with the nuclear option and spread oats, wheat and WR, call it good.
 
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Dipped down to 66 last night. Starting to get morning dew and pop up showers are more prevalent. It won’t be long before seed goes out.
 
A little throw and roll. Winter rye rolled over some Turnips, Radishes and Rape.
Another month or so and I will re-plant the winter rye for next year.
I did not have to spray nearly as much this year thanks to the rye

2020Throw&roll.jpg
 
Got a wild hair in my brain...
Stick with me might be a bit long winded so you can get the mental picture.

Was planning a 1acre throw/drag/spray with rain in the forecast for tonight. Planting/dragging today and spraying on sunday once the winds calm.

Then I got to thinking. Why Spray?

Early summer I came in and killed off the standing rye and first flush of weeds when about shin high. Then broadcast and dragged in buckwheat, flax, chick vetch, sun hemp, sanfoin, and jap millet.

Results were good albeit a bit thin because of moderate browsing pressure.

Plan is to broadcast, winfred brassica/radish/lentil/sunflower followed up by rye in 3 weeks.

Thought process was, why not let the jap millet (great pheasant food, and the majority of what's left) and other summer annuals finish maturing.
Then hope the fall crop fills in the gaps once they finish dry down, boosted by split applying some later fert. Most of the summer annuals are relatively thin/short in stature. So plenty of light is getting in. And I still have plenty of thatch from spring, so should be able to nurse the fall crop along.

Finally the kicker and what got me thinking..
I had 2A of corn fail out of 5 that is going to be worked up and replanted next week in the same brassica mixture. Losing the corn hurts cause the resident pheasants usually have the 5A picked clean by March, only have a half acre of sorgum as a backup. So was kinda hoping the 1A of jap millet could provide a bit of a boost if allowed to finish.

Now the 1A plot was relatively weed free when I was last there a couple weeks ago, but if I show up and its a mess this whole diatribe will go out the window and I wasted a bit of time typing and your time reading.

But, what would you do?

Edit: 9:13
Dont try it, not worth it, sprayin on Sunday
Edit: 927 next day.
Got an inch of rain last night, will spray tomorrow. Things should pan out I'd think.
 
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My thoughts,

Will winfred provide much forage by the time the growing season ends?

I'd work up all 3 acres (ideally a Jack style min till if that is an option) and go back to TNM next year.

In the 1 acre plot I'd go with a mix of Tillage Radish, Purple Top Turnips and a forage brassica like T-Raptor, or Pasja.

In the 2 acre plot I'd go with your mix of radish, lentil, sunflower, followed up by rye when it's best to plant in your area.

You may want to flip flop the two plots depending on your corn needs.
 
Very disappointed in my throw and mow results. The buckwheat was sparse, the lablab mix was even worse. Imma blame it on the weather and maybe not enough thatch to help the germination. The soil is a heavy clay, well drained to considerably moist. At best, i have about 5% germination. Big waste of money for me.
 
Very disappointed in my throw and mow results. The buckwheat was sparse, the lablab mix was even worse. Imma blame it on the weather and maybe not enough thatch to help the germination. The soil is a heavy clay, well drained to considerably moist. At best, i have about 5% germination. Big waste of money for me.
Maybe try planting some rye or winter wheat this fall with a red and white clover mix that way you'll some thatch next spring/summer.
 
I've used this technique with mostly cereal grains in the fall but I have an area I'm going to try and establish Virginia Wild Rye in with this technique. Being a cool season, I should be able to seed in the fall so I'm going to plant around Sept 1 with my other plots. Anxious to see the results.
 
Very disappointed in my throw and mow results. The buckwheat was sparse, the lablab mix was even worse. Imma blame it on the weather and maybe not enough thatch to help the germination. The soil is a heavy clay, well drained to considerably moist. At best, i have about 5% germination. Big waste of money for me.

I see this all the time. I have heavy clay. Understanding your soils, what is wrong, and how they respond is critical. While weather can always be a problem, there are other issues with heavy clay.

First, I ruined many of my early plots by using a 2-bottom plow and turning the soil. You've probably watched the "Ray the soil guy" videos which is why you are using T&M. I destroyed the soil tilth and lost what little OM I had with deep tillage. My original method was to use a 2-bottom plow followed by a tiller for a nice fluffy seed bed. Probably the worst think I could have done for my soil.

When I started T&M, it was a bust. Winter Rye was sparse and other crops were a bust. I drilled soybeans for summer and even they had issues. Why?

With low OM and no microbiology in the soils to speak of, clay will form a hard crust. Rain won't penetrate much at all. It tends to run off. Ray's infiltration video is a great demo. Drilled soybeans had a hard time breaking through the crust some years. It just depended on how much rain, how hard it rained, and when.

Keep in mind, building OM and restoring soil health takes decades, not a couple years. You build OM from the top down. The answer for me was Min-till. I accomplished it with a 3-pt tiller. I raised it so high, that the tines don't hit more than the top inch of soil. It disturbs the vegetation and kicks a small amount of dirt. This helps the vegetation decompose a bit faster, but more importantly, it breaks up that hard crust in the clay. When I'm done min-tilling a field, the field is still green with a slight tint of brown when you look at it from a distance. You would think it had been mowed, not tilled. I then broadcast, cultipack and spray.

Using a cultipacker becomes important in the clay. Not only does it press the seed into the ground and remove air pockets, it creates an uneven surface (dimples or troughs) that helps keep the water from running off when it rains. Never let your soil go bare. The lack of vegetation on the soil promotes crusting.

The next step is to make deer secondary, and soil health primary. There are plenty of crops that promote soil health that are great deer food, so you don't really need to sacrifice anything. The primary purpose is to build OM. Choose crops in ratio that have a good C:N ratio for building OM. Basically it is a mix of grasses and legumes that produce biomass. I plant both spring and fall. Over time, I built some OM, so I get much less crusting. I can T&M now most of the time, but I still check the soil for crusting and min-till when necessary. Last year I tried a very light disc and it seemed to be shallow enough for min-till. I made just one fast pass.

I'm now to the point where I've stopped fertilizing. I've got nutrient cycling working in my soil. It has be several years since I fertilized and I've noticed no change in crops or deer use. I'm not saying that I'll never need to fertilize again and I do soil tests every few years, but a smart selection of low fertility requirement crops and better nutrient cycling has dramatically reduced my planting cost.

On the upside for heavy clay, lime moves very slowly thorough it. This means you need to be patient with the initial application for it to reach root depth. I only top dress lime and never till it in as tillage was the start of many of my problems. My soil takes about 4 tons/ac of ag lime to amend it and they suggest only applying 3 tons in a single application. It takes 3 to 5 years before the pH drops enough for 1 ton/ac of maintenance lime after that because it moves so slowly. So, be thankful you have heavy clay. It is better than sand on the other end of the spectrum, but we all envy those guys in big ag country with fertile loam. Those fertile soils can take much more abuse from tillage and recover than my marginal soils.

Hope this helps you stay the course...

Thanks,

Jack
 
I have a new property in SE Oklahoma. I have a 10 acre field that is very sandy loam river bottom. In years past it was cut and bailed for hay during summer then disc and planted in wheat in fall. I could not get anyone to come in to bail this summer so wheat headed out and now it is about chest high in johnson grass plus native forbs and grasses. My plan is to make a 5 acre food plot with LC mixes which for my area can be planted early September. I was thinking of mowing, disc, then tilling then seeding but came across the throw and mow method. Is there such thing as to much biomass? I'm afraid if I spread seed then mow. I will be dealing with Johnson grass and bermuda. If it was a smaller plot I wouldn't worry but 5 acres is overwhelming me. Any advice would be appreciated.
 
I would be willing to bet if you do TNM it will be grass dominated one way or another. It will either be the Johnson grass or the wheat.
 
I have a new property in SE Oklahoma. I have a 10 acre field that is very sandy loam river bottom. In years past it was cut and bailed for hay during summer then disc and planted in wheat in fall. I could not get anyone to come in to bail this summer so wheat headed out and now it is about chest high in johnson grass plus native forbs and grasses. My plan is to make a 5 acre food plot with LC mixes which for my area can be planted early September. I was thinking of mowing, disc, then tilling then seeding but came across the throw and mow method. Is there such thing as to much biomass? I'm afraid if I spread seed then mow. I will be dealing with Johnson grass and bermuda. If it was a smaller plot I wouldn't worry but 5 acres is overwhelming me. Any advice would be appreciated.

Some Johnson Grass is gly resistant and some is not. If yours is not gly resistant, throw and mow should work. Just spray after mowing and seeding.
 
I have a new property in SE Oklahoma. I have a 10 acre field that is very sandy loam river bottom. In years past it was cut and bailed for hay during summer then disc and planted in wheat in fall. I could not get anyone to come in to bail this summer so wheat headed out and now it is about chest high in johnson grass plus native forbs and grasses. My plan is to make a 5 acre food plot with LC mixes which for my area can be planted early September. I was thinking of mowing, disc, then tilling then seeding but came across the throw and mow method. Is there such thing as to much biomass? I'm afraid if I spread seed then mow. I will be dealing with Johnson grass and bermuda. If it was a smaller plot I wouldn't worry but 5 acres is overwhelming me. Any advice would be appreciated.
JG goes dormant much earlier than any of the other grasses so it's perfect for fall planting cereal grains. Go ahead and spray it, spread your seed, then brushhog (you won't have too much thatch). It won't come back this fall to compete with your fall/winter plots. It will come back next spring which makes the clovers part of LC mix difficult as JG outcompetes everything in the summer (as you already know). JG spreads through ryhsomes. It loves tillage and responds very well to disturbance.

On a side note; my dad hays a wheat/Johnson Grass field... makes for some outstanding dove hunts!

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
 
I got anxious and planted my field yesterday. Then I got soaked from heavy rains an hour later doing other work on my property!!! It was perfect timing.

  • Chicory and kale at a rate of 3lbs per acre
  • Wheat at 60lbs per acre
  • Crimson Clover at 2 lbs per acre
  • Rape also at about 2 lbs per acre
  • And my all-time favorite: Rolled Horse Oats (feed) at 50/lbs per acre
To finish things off:
  • I dropped 120lbs per acre of 10-10-10
  • I also dragged the field flat with ONE pass of my harrow drag rake (I did spikes down just to open up the thatch a little. I am SO GLAD that I did this based on the heavy rains that came).
My seedbed looks great compared to what I started with (the field was just hard clay when I had the dozer work done 5 years ago)
I had sprayed this field twice a month ago.
View attachment 30718

I still had some green in the field. This pic really doesn't really have a good view as it looks more green than it really is because of the trees, when I draw lines to show where the field is it makes me feel better ;)
The green doesn't really worry me too much because of what I've planted (this below pic is prior to me dragging the harrow over everything). Some of the green is around trees that I have planted and this pic doesn't show the bottom of the field (this is on a hill) which is actually the larger part of the field. But before I leave, I remember to snap a pic and this is what I'm left with.

View attachment 30725
Well, after planting the field 2 weeks ago, things are looking "good" (not great or awesome). It's about what I would have expected. I got 150 pounds of lime down this weekend. I'll hit it with more in a two weeks along with more 10-10-10. Once things really start to show I was thinking of a lighter deployment of some urea. Does anyone see a problem with that much nitrogen on what I've planted? (chickory, wheat, clover, brassica and oats)

I've got some obvious greening going on. A closer look shows me that my seed is taking (the stuff I recognize). Plus my trail cams are not showing heavy deer traffic (which is great and why I had killed the field off during the summer - trying to get the deer to eat other stuff and allowing my seeds to grow closer to maturity). Here's the glamour shots:

1596463633560.png
 
Hey wasn't this thread originally pinned at one point in the forums?
 
checking cams tomorrow and putting a new stand up after work. last time i checked the buckwheat it was about an inch tall or so. the experiment seed i grew in a cup at home is prob close to 4 inches tall now so i hope the field is about the same. we were down in the low 60s last few nights, but they are calling for back in the 90s this weekend. still planning on putting the brassics and WR in, in early Sept. unless we get cold again and they dont have the temps coming back up. is there a preferred temp for those to put on the ground?
 
Brassicas are typically 2 months before frost. Winter rye generally gets put down at the same time with T&M. But it's planting dates vary from August to October, depending on where you are. In Zones 6 and warmer, you should plant winter rye in late fall; in coldest zones, you should get it in the ground in early fall.
 
Well, after planting the field 2 weeks ago, things are looking "good" (not great or awesome). It's about what I would have expected. I got 150 pounds of lime down this weekend. I'll hit it with more in a two weeks along with more 10-10-10. Once things really start to show I was thinking of a lighter deployment of some urea. Does anyone see a problem with that much nitrogen on what I've planted? (chickory, wheat, clover, brassica and oats)

I've got some obvious greening going on. A closer look shows me that my seed is taking (the stuff I recognize). Plus my trail cams are not showing heavy deer traffic (which is great and why I had killed the field off during the summer - trying to get the deer to eat other stuff and allowing my seeds to grow closer to maturity). Here's the glamour shots:

View attachment 30933
And the "eaters" found all of my fresh new growth. This is 5 doe. The field itself is just under 2 acres and I expect it to have about a dozen deer in it at times (if it's like last year). While that sounds great, it really makes it hard for things to get established. I've tried fencing with the plot saver and that didn't work well for multiple reasons (odd shape field, field on a hillside, etc.). I may try it again this year by leveraging a rectangular shape down in the bottom of the field - which is basically where this below pic is taken. If not, they will hammer this field nightly coming in earlier and earlier.

1596633640636.png
 
I've used this technique with mostly cereal grains in the fall but I have an area I'm going to try and establish Virginia Wild Rye in with this technique. Being a cool season, I should be able to seed in the fall so I'm going to plant around Sept 1 with my other plots. Anxious to see the results.
If you have dogs you might not want to plant Virginia Wild Rye. It's considered a possible/likely cause of grass awn infection. Not a lot of proof on that but similar Canada wild rye is a major cause of disability and death of working dogs.
 
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