Seeding brassicas into standing rye

[trapperm]

I had a brassica failure thanks to our Mn drought last year and ended up with a lot of winter rye in plots.

Have any of you experience with just allowing the rye to go/grow until fall brassica planting time?

I’m curious about the amount of volunteer rye that will come as I suspect the seed heads will be mature by then.

Also curious to know if there is anything else unexpected that tends to happe? Allelopathic issues, etc.

TM

 

[rocksnstumps]

I let rye seed out and plant something else later a fair amount but first few times I mowed it and feel that just put so much seed on the ground and germinated that it was too thick. Now I roll it instead of mowing and that seems to keep the volunteer seeding not as thick to allow other stuff to grow. Nothing scientific with lots of data but just my opinion.

 

[SWIFFY]

I’ve had good luck broadcasting brassicas into rye… I guess I feel by July the Rye is about done. I knock it down and spray it and broadcast my brassicas into it. If the rye seeds, that’s fine. I’ll take that free seed too. I’ve had some great plots this way!

This was July 9 when I knocked rye down and seeded brassicas…
This is August 11 when I went back and overseeded more rye…. Deer crushed it all fall through November.

By September it looked real good and I had a lot of big bulb out there!

 

[TreeDaddy]

Looks like a pretty high dollar implement being used to terminate the rye

Is it for sale?

bill

 

[4wanderingeyes]

I do about the same as Swiffy. I let it go until early July when I am ready to plant my fall plots. I am in zone 3b, so I plant early July. I also spread the seed, then just use my toothed drag with the teeth down and knock it down. I have used old pallets, and a chunk of chain link fence, whatever it takes to knock it down.

 

[trapperm]

Thanks for the replies. Exactly the info I was looking for.

Do you find that you have to overseed slightly or is germination on your target crop usually pretty good?

 

[Wild Thing]

We plant brassicas in early July also here in Upper Michigan (zone 4b). The rye seed isn't viable at that time and it will not germinate if scattered. Not sure where you are in MN but you are not likely to get germination at that time either. If in doubt, do a rag doll test to see if the seed germinates.



I rolled this rye with my cultipacker on July 8th...



I drill my seed but I am confident that if you broadcasted your brassica seed just prior to a rain event you would get good results as well...



After some timely rain I had germination 7 days later - July 15th... You can see that this rye seed is not fully developed.



July 31st - it is well on its way...



If your rye seed looks like this in late July - early August you will get germination and volunteer rye.

 

[trapperm]

We plant brassicas in early July also here in Upper Michigan (zone 4b). The rye seed isn't viable at that time and it will not germinate if scattered. Not sure where you are in MN but you are not likely to get germination at that time either. If in doubt, do a rag doll test to see if the seed germinates.

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I rolled this rye with my cultipacker on July 8th...

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I drill my seed but I am confident that if you broadcasted your brassica seed just prior to a rain event you would get good results as well...

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After some timely rain I had germination 7 days later - July 15th... You can see that this rye seed is not fully developed.

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July 31st - it is well on its way...

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If your rye seed looks like this in late July - early August you will get germination and volunteer rye.

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According to USDA I’m in 3B. I can monitor the rye and spray it if it looks like the seed will be viable before planting.

 

[trapperm]

Anyone experience a thatch buildup that becomes prohibitive to this process or does it seem to break down fast enough that it doesn’t pose any issues?

I do have a 3pt tiller that I can use if problems arise but it kind of defeats the whole intent of my plan if that ends up being needed.

 

[Wild Thing]

I don't think you can have too much thatch. Thatch is your friend and has many positive benefits. It does break down fairly rapidly. You can see how thick the rye thatch is in the photos I posted above, yet the brassicas had no problem at all growing up through it.

Here is another example. I had planted perennial clovers with a nurse crop of rye in this small plot the previous fall. I had back surgery in early summer and never got back on my tractor until August 5th when I mowed the rye. You would think that thatch this thick would at least smother some of the clovers...



But a few weeks later on September 18th you can hardly tell there is any thatch there...but it is there, keeping weeds at bay and providing a moisture barrier, while it decomposes putting nutrients back into the soil.



Another example - this is a very thick cover crop on July 15th...



I mowed it with a brush hog on August 7th to get a free crop of rye while maintaining the cover crop clovers and vetch. I didn't plant anything else - I just mowed it which created a fairly thick layer of thatch...





Here it is on August 30th with new rye and clovers growing right up through the thatch...

 

[S.T.Fanatic]

Anyone experience a thatch buildup that becomes prohibitive to this process or does it seem to break down fast enough that it doesn’t pose any issues?

I do have a 3pt tiller that I can use if problems arise but it kind of defeats the whole intent of my plan if that ends up being needed.

Mix in a legume. The N produced will help to break down the thatch. I havent tilled one of my plots in several years. I strictly broadcast seed and have not had a problem with germination if we don't have drought conditions.

 

[trapperm]

Mix in a legume. The N produced will help to break down the thatch. I havent tilled one of my plots in several years. I strictly broadcast seed and have not had a problem with germination if we don't have drought conditions.

You’re suggesting a legume planted in the fall with the winter rye or planted with my intended brassica crop?

 

[trapperm]

I don't think you can have too much thatch. Thatch is your friend and has many positive benefits. It does break down fairly rapidly. You can see how thick the rye thatch is in the photos I posted above, yet the brassicas had no problem at all growing up through it.

Here is another example. I had planted perennial clovers with a nurse crop of rye in this small plot the previous fall. I had back surgery in early summer and never got back on my tractor until August 5th when I mowed the rye. You would think that thatch this thick would at least smother some of the clovers...

View attachment 40923

But a few weeks later on September 18th you can hardly tell there is any thatch there...but it is there, keeping weeds at bay and providing a moisture barrier, while it decomposes putting nutrients back into the soil.

View attachment 40924

Another example - this is a very thick cover crop on July 15th...

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I mowed it with a brush hog on August 7th to get a free crop of rye while maintaining the cover crop clovers and vetch. I didn't plant anything else - I just mowed it which created a fairly thick layer of thatch...

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Here it is on August 30th with new rye and clovers growing right up through the thatch...

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It’s hard to argue with that evidence.

 

[S.T.Fanatic]

You’re suggesting a legume planted in the fall with the winter rye or planted with my intended brassica crop?

With the brassica

 

[Wild Thing]

You’re suggesting a legume planted in the fall with the winter rye or planted with my intended brassica crop?

I know you asked S.T.Fanatic but I will throw my 2 cents in also.

My answer would be BOTH. I don't plant monoculture cover crops of rye any more - they always include legumes as well.

I also now include clovers in with my brassica mix when I plant them in July and I also broadcast rye over the brassicas a month or so later. There are many benefits to doing this - primarily, the clovers and rye keep your soil covered when the brassicas are browsed out.

Here is my brassica blend:



This brassica blend was drilled on July 9th - here it is on August 21st when I broadcasted rye into the standing brassicas...



Here is the same plot the following June 16th. The brassicas are long gone but the clovers and rye have been feeding my deer and my soil since the snow melted...



Here is my cover crop blend which I used for the past 2 years... I plant these in August.



October 8th...



the following June 11th...



June 16th... I already posted the photos above of what this plot looked like when I just mowed it on August 7th and the followup on August 30th.



When you stop killing your soil by cultivating it and plant cover crops like this, which feed your soil, you can expect to see your soil test results like this....and you can stop wasting your hard earned money on synthetic fertilizers...and your deer can eat this stuff a lot better than they can eat your fertilizer

 

[S.T.Fanatic]

I like to mix peas with my winter grains in the fall and add clover to my brassica in the same plot the following year. For some reason my peas don't get hit that hard in the fall. And for that reason I add sunflowers to the mix for early season attraction until the frost takes them out. Usually the deer beet the frost.

 

[Skeeter]

Anyone experience a thatch buildup that becomes prohibitive to this process or does it seem to break down fast enough that it doesn’t pose any issues?

I do have a 3pt tiller that I can use if problems arise but it kind of defeats the whole intent of my plan if that ends up being needed.

If you have too high of a carbon to nitrogen ratio you can have thatch that doesn't break down at a reasonable rate. As others have said, plant a legume that will grow with the rye the following year.
Thatch not breaking down can also be an indicator of a dysfunctional soil. Really bad calcium to magnesium ratios, for example, can cause a tight soil that doesn't support enough microbial life to break down thatch. I believe Nicole Masters addresses thatch not breaking down in some of her webinars, though I don't recall exactly which ones off the top of my head. Hasn't been a problem for me as long as I pay attention to c:n ratios.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

I'm listening in on this thread. I'm convinced our camp needs to add clovers to our rye AND brassica plots. You guys with mixed plots seem to have better soil, decomposition of thatch, N-fixing, soil cover, etc. Taking notes boys!!!

 

[ruskbucks]

Anyone experience a thatch buildup that becomes prohibitive to this process or does it seem to break down fast enough that it doesn’t pose any issues?

I do have a 3pt tiller that I can use if problems arise but it kind of defeats the whole intent of my plan if that ends up being needed.

I would say I have experienced that. I used to plow years back and had solid brassicas plots. There was no spots of bare dirt. I have been just doing a light disc or tnm for years now. Last year I sprayed and rolled my rye. Then broadcasted brassicas into the rye thatch. I had rain right after. The brassicas came up ok, but it seemed like in the spots the rye thatch was super thick the brassicas didn't come up. I had ran my disc thru a spot that was thick white clover. The spot where I ran the disc thru where there wasn't clover looked awesome. I'm going to do the same throw and mow this year except I'm going to run the thatch over one time with the disc then seed.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

Here is my cove crop blend which I used for the past 2 years... I plant these in August.

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October 8th...

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It looks like the turnips/radish/kale might have been outcompeted by the rest of the blend or am I missing something?