Seeding brassicas into standing rye

[PatinPA]

Question for the rye crowd. Every fall/winter my rye is nice and thick but by late spring/summer the actual mature rye is pretty sparse. I just can't seem to get a thick layer for my summer throw and mow. Should I throw out some more seed in the spring?

 

[yoderjac]

Question for the rye crowd. Every fall/winter my rye is nice and thick but by late spring/summer the actual mature rye is pretty sparse. I just can't seem to get a thick layer for my summer throw and mow. Should I throw out some more seed in the spring?

I wouldn't. WR needs to overwinter to produce seed. I would just increase your seeding rates in the fall if you want it to be thicker in the spring.

 

[S.T.Fanatic]

Up your rate or add additional species with it. Medium Red Clover and/or Harry Vetch would be what I would look at.

 

[Crimson n' Camo]

Question for the rye crowd. Every fall/winter my rye is nice and thick but by late spring/summer the actual mature rye is pretty sparse. I just can't seem to get a thick layer for my summer throw and mow. Should I throw out some more seed in the spring?

Are you adding any nitrogen to it??.....Sounds like the deer may be hammering it late winter / early spring.

 

[PatinPA]

Are you adding any nitrogen to it??.....Sounds like the deer may be hammering it late winter / early spring.

I usually put a good amount of triple 10 on the plots. My plots are pretty small. The biggest is about 1/4 acre. I thought I seeded pretty heavy. Last year I used a 50 lb bag each of wheat and rye on less than half an acre total. I also planted with additional crops. Last year was an experiment. I did one with clover/chicory, one with peas and clover, and one with brassicas. None of these turned out very good which is why I ended up going heavy on the rye/wheat.

Could be the deer are just hammering it. I usually end up with a larger winter herd.

 

[Crimson n' Camo]

Yep......heavy browsing pressure is likely your issue. Try going with straight cereal rye and then hit it will some 34-0-0 in the spring a couple weeks before the rye would usually bolt in your area. The ammonia smell can be a bit of a temporary deterrent on top of giving the rye a boost

 

[4wanderingeyes]

Yep......heavy browsing pressure is likely your issue. Try going with straight cereal rye and then hit it will some 34-0-0 in the spring a couple weeks before the rye would usually bolt in your area. The ammonia smell can be a bit of a temporary deterrent on top of giving the rye a boost

Isnt 34-0-0 a delayed slow release N?

 

[Crimson n' Camo]

Isnt 34-0-0 a delayed slow release N?

I dont think so but I could be wrong on that......If you buy "nitrogen" in my area 34-0-0 is usually what you get. Something like milorgranite would probably help as well to deter the browsing pressure enough to let the rye mature.

 

[Crimson n' Camo]

What’s likely happening is that the rye is trying to bolt and it just keeps getting knocked back over and over…..thinning it out more and more as plants eventually use up their energy supply and terminate….In a situation where deer have plenty to eat they’ll usually leave it alone when it hits this stage and becomes less palatable…. but if there arent a whole lot of other food sources available to them during this time period then they’ll just keep hammering it. I’ve done the same thing before with mowing in the spring as the rye was maturing. Its something to keep in mind if you have clover mixed in and your cereal grains are too thick. A couple mowings during this bolting stage will open up a little room for it.

 

[yoderjac]

Sound to me like the issue is too many deer for the habitat. Sometime we focus on food plots when the real problem is elsewhere. When we first started planting soybeans for summer, the other owners thought I was doing something completely wrong in terms of ag. I kept hearing, "you're planting too deep", "too shallow", "too early", "Too late", "not enough fertilizer", and the list goes on. I finally put up a Gallagher-style E-fence around a portion of one of the fields. We had huge beans canopying inside that fence and nothing outside. In order for us to plant beans without a fence I had to increase to 7 acres. On top of that, we had to shoot every doe we could for a couple years to get things back in balance. As we have improved the native habitat, it has taken pressure off our food plots and brought things back into balance.

Sometimes we ask "what is wrong with my plot" when the answer is nothing.

 

[Crimson n' Camo]

I’m gonna disagree with you a little on this one Jack……Granted we don’t know everything going on in his situation but he said his plots were only ¼ acre in size. I don’t see it talked about quite as much as it used to be but something that hunters/land managers often do that I believe is a mistake is using food plot usage/browsing pressure as their gauge for carrying capacity. Doing that can be very misleading.



As an example, in my area I’m surrounded by lots of large landowners who manage their property like the old school quail plantations. The understory in routinely burned and produces enough food to support large deer populations. As a result, the deer density is high and small food plots with limited supplies of highly desirable ice cream plants get hammered by a lot of mouths. But that’s in no way a reflection of how much the carrying capacity if being maxed out.

 

[yoderjac]

I’m gonna disagree with you a little on this one Jack……Granted we don’t know everything going on in his situation but he said his plots were only ¼ acre in size. I don’t see it talked about quite as much as it used to be but something that hunters/land managers often do that I believe is a mistake is using food plot usage/browsing pressure as their gauge for carrying capacity. Doing that can be very misleading.



As an example, in my area I’m surrounded by lots of large landowners who manage their property like the old school quail plantations. The understory in routinely burned and produces enough food to support large deer populations. As a result, the deer density is high and small food plots with limited supplies of highly desirable ice cream plants get hammered by a lot of mouths. But that’s in no way a reflection of how much the carrying capacity if being maxed out.

I don't disagree with any of that so I probably wasn't clear. I agree that food plot browse pressure is only one factor in evaluating deer populations. What I meant was that there may be too many deer for the approach he is using. I'm trying to say that seeding rates, fertilization, and general plot management can't always correct the problem. While the deer population may be inside the BCC for the area, there still may be too many deer for a 1/4 acre plot planted with a certain crop during a certain period. In some cases, like with soybeans or other ice cream crops, it is simply choosing a less attractive crop. When you get down to cereal, you are working with a crop that generally is not over-browsed. So, during a certain stress period there is little enough food in the area, that a 1/4 acre field of cereal isn't working. It may be that 1/4 acre is simply too small for the situation.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Crimson n' Camo]

Ok.....I see what you're saying now. That makes sense. One positive aspect of working on a small scale like that is it gives you the ability to make changes "by hand" so to speak.....Meaning that you have the option of doing something like bringing in a round bale of hay and spreading it out if you need to. That may be a more feasible option than trying to grow it in this situation

 

[yoderjac]

Ok.....I see what you're saying now. That makes sense. One positive aspect of working on a small scale like that is it gives you the ability to make changes "by hand" so to speak.....Meaning that you have the option of doing something like bringing in a round bale of hay and spreading it out if you need to. That may be a more feasible option than trying to grow it in this situation

Yes, and while thatch has its benefits, it generally isn't necessary if you can get other conditions right. That is easier to do on a small scale too. When I have rain in the forecast, I only have time to plant so many acres before it comes when working on a larger scale. Since I often do multiple steps (broadcast, cultipack, and spray), I need to make an accurate estimate of how much to bite off before the rain comes so that I can get all 3 steps applies. There is too much inefficiency for me to do all 3 steps on one field changing implements multiple times.

Small properties also have different management goals. Generally the most you can do is improve you hunting. Small scale doesn't allow for herd impact. For a larger property where herd health is a goal, we are constantly balancing between hunting benefits and general wildlife benefits.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[PatinPA]

Thanks for the advice guys. I'm surrounded by commercial ag on basically all four sides. I can completely see there being too many deer for the area. I'm surrounded by a 150+ acre farm that is owned by non hunters who don't let anyone hunt it. Fun to hunt around but not good for herd management. I need to knock a couple doe off but I can only do so much with at most 2 doe tags. Can't throw out a hay bale because I'm in a CWD area, no direct feeding of any kind. I've had problems trying to establish clover in any of my plots. Maybe it's just getting eaten that fast too.

My goal is just to get a good thatch because my topsoil layer is very thin and soil is poor. Just want to build it up. I'll keep trying different things until one of them works.

 

[yoderjac]

Thanks for the advice guys. I'm surrounded by commercial ag on basically all four sides. I can completely see there being too many deer for the area. I'm surrounded by a 150+ acre farm that is owned by non hunters who don't let anyone hunt it. Fun to hunt around but not good for herd management. I need to knock a couple doe off but I can only do so much with at most 2 doe tags. Can't throw out a hay bale because I'm in a CWD area, no direct feeding of any kind. I've had problems trying to establish clover in any of my plots. Maybe it's just getting eaten that fast too.

My goal is just to get a good thatch because my topsoil layer is very thin and soil is poor. Just want to build it up. I'll keep trying different things until one of them works.

I'm not sure what your state offers. Here in VA, the DWR offers a DMAP (Deer Management Assistance Program). With this program, we are required to collect data and take biological samples (jawbones) from every deer harvested for the state biologists. In exchange, they evaluate the the area and issue free doe tags according to the number of does they think need harvested from the area. These tags are good any day during and deer hunting season here, not just on special doe days. You may wan tto se ewhat your state offers. They provide us with annual reports of their data analysis of our data as well as recommendations.

When you are in ag country you can benefit from getting to know the neighboring farmers well. Knowing what they intend to plant and when they harvest can be a real help in your decision making.

Best of Luck,

Jack

 

[Derek Reese 29]

I'm not sure what your state offers. Here in VA, the DWR offers a DMAP (Deer Management Assistance Program). With this program, we are required to collect data and take biological samples (jawbones) from every deer harvested for the state biologists. In exchange, they evaluate the the area and issue free doe tags according to the number of does they think need harvested from the area. These tags are good any day during and deer hunting season here, not just on special doe days. You may wan tto se ewhat your state offers. They provide us with annual reports of their data analysis of our data as well as recommendations.

When you are in ag country you can benefit from getting to know the neighboring farmers well. Knowing what they intend to plant and when they harvest can be a real help in your decision making.

Best of Luck,

Jack

I can speak to PA's DMAP program as there is a DMAP area that borders our farm...it is an unmitigated disaster! Yes the landowners get more tags, but if the public wants to hunt, they can and there is no denying getting a tag! The "season" for the DMAP area just opened on July 1st and my parents said it sounded like a warzone....great job fellas..shooting does with fawns that are 2 months old in 90 degree heat . The majority of these guys just want live targets and don't follow the rules at all, especially during rifle season (we used to be in a buck only area for the first week and lots of those fellas got nicked for shooting doe during buck season. I'll admit the regs are not very clear, but in my mind you should probably figure that out beforehand. The number of poaching/tresspassing and safety zone incidents we have had since the "red tag area" was established next door has skyrocketed and the number of wounded/dead deer we have found on our place has also gone up exponentially. If there was some kind of agreement for the game commission to patrol or even increase their visibility around these areas it might be nice, but that has not happened. The only positive is with all of these "hunters" banging around incessantly (accuracy by volume as my brother used to say) next door, the deer sure do find their way onto our place alot more often...and it might have helped the landowner harvest some more grains and hay...

 

[PatinPA]

I'm not sure what your state offers. Here in VA, the DWR offers a DMAP (Deer Management Assistance Program). With this program, we are required to collect data and take biological samples (jawbones) from every deer harvested for the state biologists. In exchange, they evaluate the the area and issue free doe tags according to the number of does they think need harvested from the area. These tags are good any day during and deer hunting season here, not just on special doe days. You may wan tto se ewhat your state offers. They provide us with annual reports of their data analysis of our data as well as recommendations.

When you are in ag country you can benefit from getting to know the neighboring farmers well. Knowing what they intend to plant and when they harvest can be a real help in your decision making.

Best of Luck,

Jack

Crops are almost always either soybean or corn with a hayfield sprinkled in. I'm not eligible for landowner tags. Need to have 40+ acres. I could allow others to shoot deer there but I really don't want to open that can of worms.

 

[PatinPA]

I can speak to PA's DMAP program as there is a DMAP area that borders our farm...it is an unmitigated disaster! Yes the landowners get more tags, but if the public wants to hunt, they can and there is no denying getting a tag! The "season" for the DMAP area just opened on July 1st and my parents said it sounded like a warzone....great job fellas..shooting does with fawns that are 2 months old in 90 degree heat . The majority of these guys just want live targets and don't follow the rules at all, especially during rifle season (we used to be in a buck only area for the first week and lots of those fellas got nicked for shooting doe during buck season. I'll admit the regs are not very clear, but in my mind you should probably figure that out beforehand. The number of poaching/tresspassing and safety zone incidents we have had since the "red tag area" was established next door has skyrocketed and the number of wounded/dead deer we have found on our place has also gone up exponentially. If there was some kind of agreement for the game commission to patrol or even increase their visibility around these areas it might be nice, but that has not happened. The only positive is with all of these "hunters" banging around incessantly (accuracy by volume as my brother used to say) next door, the deer sure do find their way onto our place alot more often...and it might have helped the landowner harvest some more grains and hay...

I thought there was a stipulation that you had to allow hunter access to get dmap tags. I couldn't remember for sure.

 

[Derek Reese 29]

I thought there was a stipulation that you had to allow hunter access to get dmap tags. I couldn't remember for sure.

yep that is one of the bigger negatives...and these people are not the cream of the crop (based on our experience anyway..)