Weed Problems? - crowd them out?

[Foggy47]

Just was thinking on weed problems I have had.....and continue to have at times. Some background to get on the same page....

When I got started into no-till and regenerative ag (4 years ago).....My weed problem that got my attention was pigweed. I was planting corn and soybeans with my JD71 two row planter via lots of tillage and fertilizer. I was first using RR beans and then spraying weeds with glyphosate and later went to liberty link beans and Interline herbicide. I also had about 1/2 my plots in clovers.....and some winter rye cover crop. Pigweed finally became a huge issue to me......and it was growing in the open spaces between the rows. I spent allot of time trying to control the weeds and grow the crops in rows.

It finally dawned on me that the open rows were creating the space for the weeds to grow and finally consider going the no-till route. Duh! (also, enter an affordable drill "Tar River" to the marketplace). I had allot of time on my hands due to my wife going thru some surgeries and spending allot of time at the hospital, etc. As a diversion I started reading all I could and got some good feedback from others on forums and YouTube.......and I remember the term "Crowd The Weeds Out". And started to consider the drill and the regenerative ag. SD and Catscratch and some others were very helpful to me early on.....as were some members at another site.

That summer I was unable to take care of my plots (due to wife's hospital events) and we were in a huge drought (somewhat typical in my sandy land). My plots turned into a disaster and I knew I needed to start over. Had those events not happened.....I may still be doing the same old routine....who knows(?). I watched all the video's I could, and read some books on regenerative ag (thanks CAT!). Finally saw the light. I was able to purchase a new Saya 505 drill and figured out what seeds to drill in fall. I nuked (glyphosate and 24D) and prepared 100% of my food plots at the time...about 8 acres total, and another 2 acres of land "under development" too.

Crowd 'em out was my mantra. I planted 2 bu of rye / acre along with red clover, Alice white clover, peas, turnips, DER, GHR, and more. If I get my intitial seed sheets out.....I was putting down about 134 lbs of seeds / acre and quite a combination. Fortunately, just when I got this done it started raining.....and we had good rains throughout the fall. I had beautiful stands of those crops I planted and into spring the clover and rye came back in spades. Major weed problems seemed to vanish. I still spot sprayed some bull thistles and was taking down mullein and pulled a little remaining pigweed. I started to take note on the varieties of "weeds" that came about.

I was into a rinse and repeat of the rye and clover combo after trying a "summer release" idea that didn't work for me......as we have too short of a growing season here in USDA zone 3. So,I got to my fourth summer doing this fall planting along with some mid summer efforts to plant brassica into my clover (another story).

Crowd them out....worked for me.....until it didn't this summer. Now with my new to me but used "upgraded GP drill" I believe I got my clover seed buried too deep due to the previous owner's set ups....wehich were wrong for my purposes....and me not being aware of typical practice with these drills. Anyway.....for whatever reason.....I did not get good clover coming up under my rye this spring and that become more evident upon rolling my rye in mid July. After rolling my rye....I got a Marestail outbreak that came on very quickly in many places.....especially my worst land.....but also anywhere the clover did not take hold. The clover was quite late to the party. this year...but it is coming in now....thankfully.

Why the weed outbreak?.....because I allowed too much open space for weeds to grow....IMO. Been said...".nature abhors a vacuum".....and will fill it with something to replace what you neglect to do.

I may reconsider how long I wait to roll my rye going into next year......as I think the heavy rye planting I do may have taken the space (and prevented the light) from germinating some of that clover (?). Also we had an extremely wet year....so that could make the difference. Also I do little to control any weeds with herbicides until after rolling my rye in mid July (other than to spot spray bull thistle in June). By that time this year.....it was getting pretty late to the weed party. I may have dodged a bullet with some timely spraying here....but I really want to understand my plans going forward.

I believe that if I had more "good stuff" emerged in my plots this year.....that I would not have had the weed issues I have encountered. So....with this background I am hopeful some others with these similar issue may add some words of wisdom to this thought process of Crowd Them Out.....and Roots in the Ground. Maybe just a hickup in the road......but I am Curious to hear from others. Ideas? Thanks for any input here.

 

[SD51555]

It’s been rewarding to watch your journey and willingness to change the way you see things.

If I were to write a similar take on the same subject, I’d call it ‘Change Conditions.’ I never applied simple cause and effect to what I did and what happened after. I just wrote it off to biological mystery. Since then, I started asking why. What happens if I don’t kill that? What happens next? Why did that happen? Why is that happening right there and right now? What can I do that is non-lethal to ‘change conditions?’

Before, we were taught there are only two options, plow it under or spray it. If that doesn’t work, do those things harder.

But there are new ways to change conditions that can knock back or even completely knock out many problem weeds.

Import residue: I’ve spread by hand many bales of hay on problem areas to prevent burnt clay problems.

Increase oxygen
Change pH
Stop doing the thing that just caused the problem to emerge

Let it happen: thistles
Maintain life
Drive up diversity
Increase residue layer
Introduce more weeds: ragweed, flowers


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[SD51555]

I have an interesting one coming with burdock in my yard plot. The burdock leaves were the size of a good crappie already, but the plants were very short. When I rolled that plot, I laid down a 3” thick woven mat of high carbon duff on top of it.

I wonder if it can get thru or if the frog splash from the rye and YSC can snuff it out.


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[Tree Spud]

Weeds, cool season grasses, etc. always win out. The amount of seed that each plant puts out is simply amazing. Foxtail grass for example can have up to 2500 seeds per plant, pigweed can produce up to 25,000 seeds. Then deer and other animals bring seed in on their coats.

I tried the crowd them out last 3 years and my plots were just overwhelmed with grasses and weeds this spring. The competition really stunted the soy beans. I decided to disc this spring to bring up the seed bank and then plated RR soy beans so I could spray.

I think the crowd them out is a feel good approach. If you have small acreage plots, say a couple of acres it may be manageable, but I plant 16 acres. With a week or 2 of killing my WR, weeds and grasses popped up. I need food production from the plots and as grasses move in, food production drops off.

I am not against cover crop planting to increase OM and help retain soil moisture, those are good benefits.

All I will say is that Gly, cleth, 24d, mowing & discing can be your friend when done properly. I know I will get pushback, just sharing my experience.

 

[Foggy47]

I did a rag doll test on the brassica seeds I recently planted......and also on the Winter Rye that I just mowed down to be certain it was viable it was. Even the rye seeds that are still captive in the seed head germinated. So today I mowed down the rest of my rye to get a re-seed and to rid the marestail that is in the rye.

So now I am collecting some of the seed heads from weeds that are an issue to me (Marestail) to determine if mowing them down will do any good. Put them in a wet napkin and we will know in a day or two if those seeds are viable. Never thought I would be germinating weeds.....lol.

 

[bigboreblr]

Pigweed is a very common farmers enemy. For me it's red aramath. Got tied up this year getting my son-in-laws new house ready to move in, so I didn't get a chance to spray 2,4D on my home plot. Sprayed gly last night, planted 100lbs/acre of 1/2 wheat 1/2 oats. 10 of winter peas. and 8lbs of 50% berseem 25% red 25% plain ladino. and 2lbs of 25% each of hale turnips rape and daikon. Sprayed monday about 1.5-2 quarts / acre 41% gly. Wanted to do an inital rototill, but back is out of whack from moving furnitre and working on house.

Foodplot at camp is going to be tight too. 2 inched of rain friday, hopefully spraying saturday, then about the same mix in the good plots as above, except no berseem due to sandy soil. Poor condition plots just getting 75lb/acre rye 25lbs oats and 8lb/acre of red and ladino maybe a little brassica mix like a 1lb/acre. Rocky sandy low organic material in poor spots. See what I can stuff in trailer/truck for lime and fertilizer. Just use like 70lbs/acre of triple 15 to get the rye wake up a bit. Not too much stuff will just go deep into the soil and feed the trees around the plot. Got a few apple trees in grow pots to put out too.

Got basagran, 24d and gly I wanted to put out this summer. Club has a reservation rule certain members can have it to themselves for the week. Like 2/3rds of the summer was booked this year. This wet weekend is my small window until mid september. Sedge is a big problem over there. Got to keep on yearly sprays or year 2 it comes back hard.

Might have to figure out a summer crop up there like buckwheat, peas, or maybe a summer barley. I go up once a year to mow the snowmobile trails. Try between june and early july. Could easily do a light spray n seed and maybe mow the next day.

 

[bigboreblr]

Forgot to mention my backfire. Sprayed my rye n clover foodplot at home this spring. Think I made it too strong. clover stuggled hard to comeback. Almost felt like 2 months. crimson clover didn't come out strong when I seeded it after the burndown. Red aramath didn't mind the bare ground at all.

 

[SD51555]

Weeds, cool season grasses, etc. always win out. The amount of seed that each plant puts out is simply amazing. Foxtail grass for example can have up to 2500 seeds per plant, pigweed can produce up to 25,000 seeds. Then deer and other animals bring seed in on their coats.

I tried the crowd them out last 3 years and my plots were just overwhelmed with grasses and weeds this spring. The competition really stunted the soy beans. I decided to disc this spring to bring up the seed bank and then plated RR soy beans so I could spray.

I think the crowd them out is a feel good approach. If you have small acreage plots, say a couple of acres it may be manageable, but I plant 16 acres. With a week or 2 of killing my WR, weeds and grasses popped up. I need food production from the plots and as grasses move in, food production drops off.

I am not against cover crop planting to increase OM and help retain soil moisture, those are good benefits.

All I will say is that Gly, cleth, 24d, mowing & discing can be your friend when done properly. I know I will get pushback, just sharing my experience.

There are ways to tackle that. But there’s a leap of faith needed. Pigweed is a response plant. It booms when death is metered out via chems and tillage. Chems and tillage kill off myco fungi, and that eliminates growing advantages for everything that would compete with pigweed. It also clears the deck for the pigweed to feast on all available nutrients by itself.

Foxtail is a low calcium/too much free nitrogen/not enough carbon weed. From the bible:

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[SD51555]

@Tree Spud , I think you can get out in front of it, but you have to beat it out of the chute. If you've got a drill and you wanna try something new, pound in a blend of faba beans and forage oats as soon as you can get across the ground in spring. I'd also dribble out japanese millet and white sweet clover from the tiny box. Good chance you'll have crop canopy before the pigweed even wakes up. Then in early august, you could:

1. Drill in beans and brassicas
2. Mow it off and take volunteer crop of oats and faba beans for fall.
3. Let it stand, and broadcast brassicas in and keep the faba pods and oat heads.

 

[Tree Spud]

@Tree Spud , I think you can get out in front of it, but you have to beat it out of the chute. If you've got a drill and you wanna try something new, pound in a blend of faba beans and forage oats as soon as you can get across the ground in spring. I'd also dribble out japanese millet and white sweet clover from the tiny box. Good chance you'll have crop canopy before the pigweed even wakes up. Then in early august, you could:

1. Drill in beans and brassicas
2. Mow it off and take volunteer crop of oats and faba beans for fall.
3. Let it stand, and broadcast brassicas in and keep the faba pods and oat heads.

SD thanks, your wealth of knowledge is appreciated. Interesting note on the free nitrogen. My plan is:
- Plant medium red clover, ladino clover, appin & barkant forage turnips, and purple top turnips which I just finished this weekend.
- Will over seed with ~80 lbs/ac WR in Sept.
- In spring to ~ July, will let the WR grow out then mow it. I have never had much success seeding into standing clover so I need to figure that out. The mowing may be able to clip the clover short enough to
allow for germination of seed planted. I have a Firminator G3 so I can use that to plant the below seeds.
- Late July plant brassicas (forage turnips), oats, millet, sorghum sudangrass.

Foxtail has been my biggest issue, once started it just takes over.

 

[jsasker007]

Rye has worked pretty good for me to keep the weeds down to a minimum.

 

[Foggy47]

Rye has worked pretty good for me to keep the weeds down to a minimum.

I've always thought rye was good at keeping weeds at bay too. But this year the Marestail took over in some of those rye plots. Maybe the Marestail got well established when the rye was becoming mature.....and the clover failed to grow? Still searching for answers....but, I'm considering rolling the rye earlier next year so I can deal with the weeds before they get out of hand.

This year I was asleep at the switch (busy playing golf).....and I need to stay more watchful of the developments.

 

[jsasker007]

I've always thought rye was good at keeping weeds at bay too. But this year the Marestail took over in some of those rye plots. Maybe the Marestail got well established when the rye was becoming mature.....and the clover failed to grow? Still searching for answers....but, I'm considering rolling the rye earlier next year so I can deal with the weeds before they get out of hand.

This year I was asleep at the switch (busy playing golf).....and I need to stay more watchful of the developments.

This has been extremely wet all year. Don't know if anything can compete with weeds when we get this much moisture. Guys around here can't even get in the fields to cut hay. We need to dry out for awhile for sure. The oak trees seem to really be loaded though.

 

[omicron1792]

Weeds, cool season grasses, etc. always win out. The amount of seed that each plant puts out is simply amazing. Foxtail grass for example can have up to 2500 seeds per plant, pigweed can produce up to 25,000 seeds. Then deer and other animals bring seed in on their coats.

I tried the crowd them out last 3 years and my plots were just overwhelmed with grasses and weeds this spring. The competition really stunted the soy beans. I decided to disc this spring to bring up the seed bank and then plated RR soy beans so I could spray.

I think the crowd them out is a feel good approach. If you have small acreage plots, say a couple of acres it may be manageable, but I plant 16 acres. With a week or 2 of killing my WR, weeds and grasses popped up. I need food production from the plots and as grasses move in, food production drops off.

I am not against cover crop planting to increase OM and help retain soil moisture, those are good benefits.

All I will say is that Gly, cleth, 24d, mowing & discing can be your friend when done properly. I know I will get pushback, just sharing my experience.

I’ve never had luck with soybeans In a multi crop green setting. So I agree with you there.

 

[SD51555]

I've always thought rye was good at keeping weeds at bay too. But this year the Marestail took over in some of those rye plots. Maybe the Marestail got well established when the rye was becoming mature.....and the clover failed to grow? Still searching for answers....but, I'm considering rolling the rye earlier next year so I can deal with the weeds before they get out of hand.

This year I was asleep at the switch (busy playing golf).....and I need to stay more watchful of the developments.

How would you rate the rye crop where the MT came in? Was it a good solid stand, or thinner?

 

[Foggy47]

How would you rate the rye crop where the MT came in? Was it a good solid stand, or thinner?

It was likely the same as other ground......perhaps a bit thicker. The worst MT is on my worst ground....and nearly to clover to speak of. I think the lack of ground-hugging cover crops led to the MT taking hold.

 

[Foggy47]

Checking on my plots today.....and after flail mowing the worst areas to get the free rye seeding......the marestail seems to be under control again. Seems odd that I have such nice looking plots now compared to a few weeks ago. I did a rag doll test on the seed heads from the marestail and that seed did not germinate. Got to it early enough to save the plots.

Sure is nice when something works out. Hard to believe the turn-around on this ground this year. The clover has come back in spades now.