My annual post re sowing brassicas into existing clover

[WTNUT]

Long post warning:

Okay, I admit up front for years - I mean years this has been a quest of mine that has always been a epic fail. I absolutely love a newly planted fall plot that has a mixture of clover, brassica and yes even a bit of cereal grain with rye being my fan favorite.

It is super easy to let your grain go to seed the next year and mow for the first time after it goes to seed. In my experience this always gives you a good germination of cereal grain in your clover plot starting late August along the zone 5 - 6 line. But, how does one get brassica’s in the plot on year two.

For the last several years many of your fellow plotters have been super kind and gracious giving me ideas. Some spray a light dose of gly then broadcast. Some simply mow tight and then broadcast. I have tried those as well as spray and no-till in and mow tight and drill. And, those people have success - I now publicly tip my hat to each of those persons and say “you da man and you da woman”! I suck at this technique.

Last year, I went with mow tight and broad cast. First, when I mowed the last plot which was more like a scalping than a mowing the medium duty Bushog I was using literally fell into pieces. But, who cares I was going to spread some seed. It did germinate, although not great even though I put out around 8-10 lbs per acre. But, it just didn’t work after that. I don’t really know if the deer gobble up all the young plants or it the clover crowds out the new plants. Last year was very dry so that did not help.

Unless someone has a new idea, this year I am going to take one of the disc and set it to a very slight angle to scar the surface. I did this probably 15 years ago and it gave me better results than anything since. My hope is the disc exposes enough soil to get good germination, but doesn’t really harm the clover.

I have at least 30 acres of clover plots this year so I will probably try 10-15 acres. I don’t normally do a photo tour to follow a project, but if I can get the phots uploaded I will this year. Stay tuned for the stupid guy who can do darn near anything with plots other than this ha ha.


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[BenAllgood]

I don't know about brassicas, but what I've done to thicken up clover and add in some oats was seed it, THEN set the disks straight and just rough the surface up. Sometimes it took a couple passes depending on how much was there and how hard the soil was. I think having the seed down first helped because it gave it the contact it needed, but didn't bury it too deep. Moisture helps a lot too. I wouldn't do it without good moisture.

 

[Tree Spud]

We sometimes get into group think here. The current trend of no till, soil health, cover cropping has dominated discussions. What's interesting is that I see almost no farmers cover cropping and leaving thatch on the surface.

My best plots have resulted from spraying gly, discing, planting (broadcasting & seed drill), then cultipacking. One of the drawbacks that cover cropping has led to for me is excessive weed & grass growth. The notion that cover thatch will suppress weed growth doesn't make sense. Whenever I have disc'd clover, it gets set back, but it rebounds.

 

[westonwhitetail]

I hope you figure it out and share because I'm on year one of this rotation! Planted brassicas and clover and will overseed with rye in the next couple weeks. Good Luck

 

[jsasker007]

Long post warning:

Okay, I admit up front for years - I mean years this has been a quest of mine that has always been a epic fail. I absolutely love a newly planted fall plot that has a mixture of clover, brassica and yes even a bit of cereal grain with rye being my fan favorite.

It is super easy to let your grain go to seed the next year and mow for the first time after it goes to seed. In my experience this always gives you a good germination of cereal grain in your clover plot starting late August along the zone 5 - 6 line. But, how does one get brassica’s in the plot on year two.

For the last several years many of your fellow plotters have been super kind and gracious giving me ideas. Some spray a light dose of gly then broadcast. Some simply mow tight and then broadcast. I have tried those as well as spray and no-till in and mow tight and drill. And, those people have success - I now publicly tip my hat to each of those persons and say “you da man and you da woman”! I suck at this technique.

Last year, I went with mow tight and broad cast. First, when I mowed the last plot which was more like a scalping than a mowing the medium duty Bushog I was using literally fell into pieces. But, who cares I was going to spread some seed. It did germinate, although not great even though I put out around 8-10 lbs per acre. But, it just didn’t work after that. I don’t really know if the deer gobble up all the young plants or it the clover crowds out the new plants. Last year was very dry so that did not help.

Unless someone has a new idea, this year I am going to take one of the disc and set it to a very slight angle to scar the surface. I did this probably 15 years ago and it gave me better results than anything since. My hope is the disc exposes enough soil to get good germination, but doesn’t really harm the clover.

I have at least 30 acres of clover plots this year so I will probably try 10-15 acres. I don’t normally do a photo tour to follow a project, but if I can get the phots uploaded I will this year. Stay tuned for the stupid guy who can do darn near anything with plots other than this ha ha.


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I do the disc thing like you say and it works to help get some dirt exposed to help the germination and the clover seems to thrive after it gets abused for some reason it comes back strong. WIN WIN

 

[FarmerDan]

Let me try this. It's difficult to do it in a couple of sentences...and I think if you stop to think about the whole dilemma of getting a seed to germinate and to grow you already understand.
Warning! You might need to get down on your hands and knees in the field to look at the mess where you are wanting a seed to do its thing. Bring a magnifying glass too! OK. At least think in those terms for now.

Q1: What does it take to get a seed to germinate?
A1: Moisture. That's it. Moisture. How much? Depends on the plant species. Some seeds will start the process after absorbing moisture of at least 30% of its weight. Others take more.

Q2: What prevents a seed from absorbing moisture?
A2: Lack of moisture is an obvious answer. But even if there is moisture our friend, Mother Nature, provides the seed with protection least it get fooled into thinking there's moisture when there really isn't enough to give a start and enough to assure the initial root, the radicle, the ability to grow to root itself in the growing medium, The medium could be soil - or cheese -or a paper towel.

Q3: What's the protection Mother Nature provides?
A3: A seed coat. Some seed coats are hard. Clover, brassicas. Some seed coats are soft(er). Corn, soybeans. The small grains are a special case in my mind because the seeds are sheathed and coated. Those hard seeds sold for seed are (or should be) scarified. In the process of cleaning they are run thru blades intended to nick or break the seed coat to boost germination chances. I think most processors are good at this, but it's a mass process with little control - other than the eventual lab germination test. If you look at a clover seed tag you might see something like "percentage hard seed." Oops. Viable seed where the seed coat didn't get broken. I don't think I've ever seen it on a brassica tag. Hmmm.....just something to keep in mind.

Q4: What's the old saying about what makes good seeding and why?
A4: The saying is, "Make sure of good seed to soil contact at the proper depth with adequate firmness." Do this because soil will hold moisture (maybe) even when the top couple millimeters dries. The firmness assures there's not too much air space around the seed because air is drying. Think of putting your hands under a blow drier. Same thing happens to your seed without a constant source of moisture. Proper depth is important because the seed has to supply nutrients to grow that first root which then supplies the first leaves that break thru the soil to begin manufacturing food to get the plant out of the ground to feed more root growth. Smaller hard coated seeds need to be closer to the surface while larger soft seeds can be planted deeper. There's a lot more going on.

So what could go wrong when you simply broadcast any seeds on the surface on bare soil or existing thatch? Throw and mow works (sometimes) because you're covering the seed, not with soil but with plant material to hold moisture. I think it works better with some seeds than others.

I guess I should stop. But before you seed get down on your hands and knees and take a look at what kind of bed you have and ask yourself what chance does the seed your sowing have of absorbing enough moisture to begin and to continue past the critical first stage of development. Do what you can to remove air and stay away from high heat that can lead to premature drying. At air temps of 90-degrees bare soil can be 140.

Oh! One other thing. Assuming you get all of it right, what percentage of the seed you sow will actually germinate? I know the tag says 95% but that's under ideal lab conditions. What's it going to be in the field - assuming you get everything right? And if you get any one thing wrong? Money usually stops you from seeding too much. But I think we forget about upping rates to compensate for lack of ideal situations. Best Wishes!

 

[Bill]

Brassicas = Failure.

That’s my simple formula and I’ve tried every way under the sun. Sometimes I get lucky. Most times I don’t. But I’m a hard head so I’ll be trying again this year.

 

[SwampCat]

I have had good luck seeding brassicas into existing clover with a woods seeder. I set the disk blades where they are not quite straight. The spiked roller flattens the dirt and clods turned up by the disk and the cultipacker presses the seed into the disturbed ground. I end up disturbing about one third to one half of the soil surface. I plant at 50% above recommended rate.

But aside from the fact my deer have never really been crazy about brassicas - in my area to get decent growth before cold weather - I have to plant around 1st of September. It is still 100 degrees and most likely dry unless the remnants of a hurricane comes through.

My planting method has worked well - when we get rain pretty quick after planting - but it is so rare to get early september rain in my area - it is not worth the effort to try.

 

[WTNUT]

Let me try this. It's difficult to do it in a couple of sentences...and I think if you stop to think about the whole dilemma of getting a seed to germinate and to grow you already understand.
Warning! You might need to get down on your hands and knees in the field to look at the mess where you are wanting a seed to do its thing. Bring a magnifying glass too! OK. At least think in those terms for now.

Q1: What does it take to get a seed to germinate?
A1: Moisture. That's it. Moisture. How much? Depends on the plant species. Some seeds will start the process after absorbing moisture of at least 30% of its weight. Others take more.

Q2: What prevents a seed from absorbing moisture?
A2: Lack of moisture is an obvious answer. But even if there is moisture our friend, Mother Nature, provides the seed with protection least it get fooled into thinking there's moisture when there really isn't enough to give a start and enough to assure the initial root, the radicle, the ability to grow to root itself in the growing medium, The medium could be soil - or cheese -or a paper towel.

Q3: What's the protection Mother Nature provides?
A3: A seed coat. Some seed coats are hard. Clover, brassicas. Some seed coats are soft(er). Corn, soybeans. The small grains are a special case in my mind because the seeds are sheathed and coated. Those hard seeds sold for seed are (or should be) scarified. In the process of cleaning they are run thru blades intended to nick or break the seed coat to boost germination chances. I think most processors are good at this, but it's a mass process with little control - other than the eventual lab germination test. If you look at a clover seed tag you might see something like "percentage hard seed." Oops. Viable seed where the seed coat didn't get broken. I don't think I've ever seen it on a brassica tag. Hmmm.....just something to keep in mind.

Q4: What's the old saying about what makes good seeding and why?
A4: The saying is, "Make sure of good seed to soil contact at the proper depth with adequate firmness." Do this because soil will hold moisture (maybe) even when the top couple millimeters dries. The firmness assures there's not too much air space around the seed because air is drying. Think of putting your hands under a blow drier. Same thing happens to your seed without a constant source of moisture. Proper depth is important because the seed has to supply nutrients to grow that first root which then supplies the first leaves that break thru the soil to begin manufacturing food to get the plant out of the ground to feed more root growth. Smaller hard coated seeds need to be closer to the surface while larger soft seeds can be planted deeper. There's a lot more going on.

So what could go wrong when you simply broadcast any seeds on the surface on bare soil or existing thatch? Throw and mow works (sometimes) because you're covering the seed, not with soil but with plant material to hold moisture. I think it works better with some seeds than others.

I guess I should stop. But before you seed get down on your hands and knees and take a look at what kind of bed you have and ask yourself what chance does the seed your sowing have of absorbing enough moisture to begin and to continue past the critical first stage of development. Do what you can to remove air and stay away from high heat that can lead to premature drying. At air temps of 90-degrees bare soil can be 140.

Oh! One other thing. Assuming you get all of it right, what percentage of the seed you sow will actually germinate? I know the tag says 95% but that's under ideal lab conditions. What's it going to be in the field - assuming you get everything right? And if you get any one thing wrong? Money usually stops you from seeding too much. But I think we forget about upping rates to compensate for lack of ideal situations. Best Wishes!

And - this is why FarmerDan is the best.


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[WTNUT]

Brassicas = Failure.

That’s my simple formula and I’ve tried every way under the sun. Sometimes I get lucky. Most times I don’t. But I’m a hard head so I’ll be trying again this year.

Bill do you not have luck when only seeding brassica into a well prepared bed? If I disk or till then cultipack and seed I am golden. But as Dan noted above on my knees I have a perfect recipe to hold moisture then.


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[SD51555]

We sometimes get into group think here. The current trend of no till, soil health, cover cropping has dominated discussions. What's interesting is that I see almost no farmers cover cropping and leaving thatch on the surface.

My best plots have resulted from spraying gly, discing, planting (broadcasting & seed drill), then cultipacking. One of the drawbacks that cover cropping has led to for me is excessive weed & grass growth. The notion that cover thatch will suppress weed growth doesn't make sense. Whenever I have disc'd clover, it gets set back, but it rebounds.

Its certainly not an easy thing to do, I’ll admit that. I still haven’t mastered it. The reason I do it is to save time and money, but mostly to prevent zeros from extreme weather.

I get droughts and floods, and often in the same year. I moved a bunch of clay two weeks ago, and the drought suddenly came to a halt with 2.2” of rain in one shot. I had seed on that clay. Had I not covered it in hay and gypsum before I was done, that would have turned to concrete and would have been a zero.

When we had the big drought in 2021, lots of tilled plots didn’t make it. Mine held on. I did do some spraying in June, and I had nothing but toast for 6 weeks in my plot. Lots of seed that never did anything.


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[Barndog56]

I think there is a misconception that regenerative, or soil health, means absolutely no type of tillage. The reasoning behind not tilling is to protect the soil structure and soil life. And while a plow, or a roto-tiller set 8 inches deep will destroy lots of both, running a disc set to just cut up the top inch of soil won't harm much of either. The goal for me is to do the least amount of tilling necessary.

So I say if your past success was due to the use of a disc and culti-packer, then by all means use them. A field full of healthy brassicas will do more good for your field than the disc may harm it.

 

[Bill]

Bill do you not have luck when only seeding brassica into a well prepared bed? If I disk or till then cultipack and seed I am golden. But as Dan noted above on my knees I have a perfect recipe to hold moisture then.


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No the few times I tried that way we never got enough rain. The best stand I had was drilled into killed clover. But it wasn’t magazine cover special. I’ve just never had good luck with brassicas. I keep threatening to plant them in late June or early July and hope for some moisture. I’ve got “a” Winfred brassica (kinda like kale) in my yard that came up in the spring in a burnt out stump. I must have spilled a few seeds last fall. It’s over 3 foot tall and browsed. I think my problem is planting to late it gets dry and then cold.

 

[Booner21]

No the few times I tried that way we never got enough rain. The best stand I had was drilled into killed clover. But it wasn’t magazine cover special. I’ve just never had good luck with brassicas. I keep threatening to plant them in late June or early July and hope for some moisture. I’ve got “a” Winfred brassica (kinda like kale) in my yard that came up in the spring in a burnt out stump. I must have spilled a few seeds last fall. It’s over 3 foot tall and browsed. I think my problem is planting to late it gets dry and then cold.

Man that is strange I throw mine right into just about anything and don’t have issues. I use radishes dwarf rape and purple top turnips. They seem to be one of the easier things for me to get to come up.


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[Vikingman1981]

I don't know about brassicas, but what I've done to thicken up clover and add in some oats was seed it, THEN set the disks straight and just rough the surface up. Sometimes it took a couple passes depending on how much was there and how hard the soil was. I think having the seed down first helped because it gave it the contact it needed, but didn't bury it too deep. Moisture helps a lot too. I wouldn't do it without good moisture.

I've wondered about this and was thinking discing over seed would damage the seed?? It sounds like it doesn't according to what you wrote. Perhaps larger seeds would endure more damage? Can you even damage seeds??

 

[Vikingman1981]

WTNUT I am attempting to grow brassicas into my 2 year old white clover plot currently. I posted about it, I sprayed gly and 24D, I didn't get a great kill on my clover maybe a 1/3 of my 1/2 acre clover is dead. I broadcast 3lbs of Northwoods whitetail sweet feast into the plot then mowed then scalped. Sprayed some more gly on after. I'm hoping to get a good stand of brassicas and the clover to bounce back since I didn't kill it completely which was the plan...We'll see I planted just last wknd in SWPA. The deer hammered the turnips last year!

 

[BenAllgood]

I've wondered about this and was thinking discing over seed would damage the seed?? It sounds like it doesn't according to what you wrote. Perhaps larger seeds would endure more damage? Can you even damage seeds??

I've disked in seed many, many times, and never had an issue. I've done it with clovers, oats, wheat, and soybeans without an issue. The only issue is having the disks set right. You can bury those small seeds too deep if your blades have too much of an angle and/or you're putting too much down pressure. What works good too is one of those arena spin harrows. With those, you can't have too much thatch though, or it stops spinning and just pulls the thatch across the ground.

 

[Vikingman1981]

I've disked in seed many, many times, and never had an issue. I've done it with clovers, oats, wheat, and soybeans without an issue. The only issue is having the disks set right. You can bury those small seeds too deep if your blades have too much of an angle and/or you're putting too much down pressure. What works good too is one of those arena spin harrows. With those, you can't have too much thatch though, or it stops spinning and just pulls the thatch across the ground.

cool I always wondered about that...I have a groundhog max tiller and it's highly adjustable so I will remember that!

 

[jsasker007]

Brassicas = Failure.

That’s my simple formula and I’ve tried every way under the sun. Sometimes I get lucky. Most times I don’t. But I’m a hard head so I’ll be trying again this year.

Bill I think this is your year! Many times I have tried and tried to make things work and only after I had lost all hope did it finally work out. You're there. Bumper crop coming up.

 

[Tree Spud]

Its certainly not an easy thing to do, I’ll admit that. I still haven’t mastered it. The reason I do it is to save time and money, but mostly to prevent zeros from extreme weather.

I get droughts and floods, and often in the same year. I moved a bunch of clay two weeks ago, and the drought suddenly came to a halt with 2.2” of rain in one shot. I had seed on that clay. Had I not covered it in hay and gypsum before I was done, that would have turned to concrete and would have been a zero.

When we had the big drought in 2021, lots of tilled plots didn’t make it. Mine held on. I did do some spraying in June, and I had nothing but toast for 6 weeks in my plot. Lots of seed that never did anything.


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I hear what you are saying. I have been doing this approach for 3 years now. Unfortunately grass & weeds are winning the battle. One of the challenges here in the north is trying to do a spring planting then a fall planting and get a reasonable outcome of food production in the fall planting. Two planting cycles very difficult.

In my area I would have to let spring planting go until at least end of June to get the OM materials to make the planting worthwhile. Then you need to try and plant in July to allow at least 60 days to get reasonable growth especially bulbs on radishes & turnips.

The problem is best rains are April through mid June. We often see limited rain, and this year severe drought conditions, in July to August.

In addition to the above, you have to have a period where you can spray herbicide to deal with the weeds & grasses. A real balancing act.

I've wondered if the nitrogen built up by the fall clover & WR over-seeding is actually consumed by the clover and WR emergence in the spring green-up. Thus reducing it's availability for the fall planting?