Lime has been spread, pH not moving.

When I was a kid we farmed soybeans, corn and cotton. Never fertilized the soybeans and can’t remember fertilizing the cotton and corn other than side dressing. Dad NEVER took soil samples, probably never heard of them. The big worry was how many bushels per acre or bales per acre would we harvest and keeping the cost down. We survived and had pretty decent harvests.

I just wonder if all the hype about fertilizer and lime is coming from the corporate side? Those guys need to sell their product to stay in business. “Why not create a culture that thinks they need our product by suggesting they do soil sampling which will show them they need to put down fertilizer and lime?” I know this sounds like conspiracy theory and you are right. BUT?
Not a conspiracy at all. Intervention begets more intervention. It's perfect ecosystem, much like the synergy between food and drugs. You can't eat common american food without drugs. Drugs make it possible to eat common american food.

Crop interventions are the same way. If you start using enough of them, you have to use the rest of them to keep it going or you just run into another problem.
 
I do not fertilize my food plots for the most part. I try to keep a good rotation and look for crops that are good at nutrient cycling. If you were to do only that with production agriculture you would go bankrupt before long. I think we can all agree that any crop planted takes certain amounts of nutrient out of the soil. If you were to do corn on corn every year ( like most farmers seem to do ) without doing any soil amendments I cant say how long it would be before the cost out weigh the returns but I don't think it would take all that long.
 
Not a conspiracy at all. Intervention begets more intervention. It's perfect ecosystem, much like the synergy between food and drugs. You can't eat common american food without drugs. Drugs make it possible to eat common american food.

Crop interventions are the same way. If you start using enough of them, you have to use the rest of them to keep it going or you just run into another problem.

I do not fertilize my food plots for the most part. I try to keep a good rotation and look for crops that are good at nutrient cycling. If you were to do only that with production agriculture you would go bankrupt before long. I think we can all agree that any crop planted takes certain amounts of nutrient out of the soil. If you were to do corn on corn every year ( like most farmers seem to do ) without doing any soil amendments I cant say how long it would be before the cost out weigh the returns but I don't think it would take all that long.
The farmer has to weigh the cost against his return just like any other business. We guys who are playing at farming by planting food plots to harvest a couple of deer each year just need to weigh the cost against the return. Do I want to spend my money to have a deer steak or go to a resturant and pay for a steak? Personally, I do both. It is fun to play at farming for the deer and I like a good steak once in a while.

Oh yeah, I enjoy discussing it on here too.
 
I do not fertilize my food plots for the most part. I try to keep a good rotation and look for crops that are good at nutrient cycling. If you were to do only that with production agriculture you would go bankrupt before long. I think we can all agree that any crop planted takes certain amounts of nutrient out of the soil. If you were to do corn on corn every year ( like most farmers seem to do ) without doing any soil amendments I cant say how long it would be before the cost out weigh the returns but I don't think it would take all that long.
It's coming. It isn't ready yet. The guys working on 60" corn were getting close, but I haven't seen the concept pushed all the way through. I wish the GA guys would try that Durana experiment on 60" rows and add in more stuff and do a zero input trial.

 
I do not fertilize my food plots for the most part. I try to keep a good rotation and look for crops that are good at nutrient cycling. If you were to do only that with production agriculture you would go bankrupt before long. I think we can all agree that any crop planted takes certain amounts of nutrient out of the soil. If you were to do corn on corn every year ( like most farmers seem to do ) without doing any soil amendments I cant say how long it would be before the cost out weigh the returns but I don't think it would take all that long.
I guess the way I look at it is corn is hard on the soil if you harvest it. If you don’t, then it really takes nothing out of the soil. I probably makes the nutrients more available for the next crop as it decomposes onto the soil. That’s where I think food plotters differ mainly from farmers, and why farming ideas aren’t always great for food plots.

Isn’t that why we use buckwheat? It mines phos. Why we use rye? It mines N and K. All these different plants (that’s why we plant poly cultures) mine the tied up nutrients that then are easily available to the next crop. As grant woods says, the best slow release fertilizer!
 
It's coming. It isn't ready yet. The guys working on 60" corn were getting close, but I haven't seen the concept pushed all the way through. I wish the GA guys would try that Durana experiment on 60" rows and add in more stuff and do a zero input trial.

I see more and more clover in the rows these days. But we aren’t a huge agricultural state so I think farmers here are slower to make changes.
 
I watched a video today about corn growth on disced ground and corn no tilled into rye and then crimped. The early results were the disc in corn was better early on and no till corn came back in the end as soil moisture diminished.
 
Wind Gypsy,

Do you have the soil sample results? Hows your CEC? What kind of soil do you have?

MY brother in law experiments alot, and lets folks like cornell use his land for experiments too. He's done rotation changes, green cover stuff, and manure processing pond experiments from cornell.

They do multiple tests. plant tissue, pre-planting residue analysis, and of course soil samples. They have a no-till 1" deep soil sample test they do. They do not collect the samples, they have the soil lab come in and use a sampling machine to get precise depths, as well as precise zone depths. I use a coring tool, sure many of you have them. What I used to do is take a shovel, remove the top 3 inches, measure how much you took, then use the coring tool to get the 3-5 inch zone.

I clean the coring tool each pass, just make sure it's empty. Push it down level with the solid part f the tool. Remove the top piece from the core, then push it down to about 5 inches. I am removing the top piece. Which is like the shovel method.

Their recommendations is based on 6" of tillage.

What have you seen in changes since liming?

At home I got heavy clay, at camp I got sand. I do use lime and fertilizer up there. However, I use very light amounts. like 100 lbs /acre of 6-24-24 and about 500 lbs / ace or lime. I don't do this every year. My intentions is to build use plant residue with these inputs.

Keep it scientific. Recall what conditions you had that last soil sample. Time of year, water saturation, and sampling collection method. Even existing crop at the time.


If you want good production ever year, tillage may be needed due to compaction.
 
Does your soil test break down the saturation percentages? Did you notice any change in the % saturation of Ca?

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I sent out my soil today. They had an optional test called pH in .001M CaCl2. Basically, they put your soil in a dilute solution of calcium clhoride (lime) and mix it for an hour, then check your pH. Kinda sounds like they know what so much lime in your soil will do to your pH. They wanted an extra $11 for that. Would of went for it knowing this now.

Since I had the day off and was getting my samples ready, I had a little more time to think about this. Take some samples. 0-1 inch and your deeper samples, compare the pH. Not sure if you have a soil test kit or those cheesy pH probes. OR, even just take another test and send it out for the 0-1 inch one. Could also check the pH probe shallow then deep in a few spots to compare.

I have one of those $10 cheap meters. I use it mostly for my indoors plants. I have a cactus collection that the roots can rot and die in the winter if watered too often. Have to admit, it has been relatively accurate when compared to soil samples. I also use it to check soil before transplanting to bigger pots too. I usually make custom mixed soils for the cacti. Adding too much of something can kill a plant, like bonemeal.
 
I sent out my soil today. They had an optional test called pH in .001M CaCl2. Basically, they put your soil in a dilute solution of calcium clhoride (lime) and mix it for an hour, then check your pH. Kinda sounds like they know what so much lime in your soil will do to your pH. They wanted an extra $11 for that. Would of went for it knowing this now.

Since I had the day off and was getting my samples ready, I had a little more time to think about this. Take some samples. 0-1 inch and your deeper samples, compare the pH. Not sure if you have a soil test kit or those cheesy pH probes. OR, even just take another test and send it out for the 0-1 inch one. Could also check the pH probe shallow then deep in a few spots to compare.

I have one of those $10 cheap meters. I use it mostly for my indoors plants. I have a cactus collection that the roots can rot and die in the winter if watered too often. Have to admit, it has been relatively accurate when compared to soil samples. I also use it to check soil before transplanting to bigger pots too. I usually make custom mixed soils for the cacti. Adding too much of something can kill a plant, like bonemeal.
Tell me more about the "$10 cheap meter" you have. I would like to have one of those.
 

This does not replace a true soil test, but some properties have hit n go spots of good soil / bad soil. Like soil erosion differences, bulldozer work, stream beds etc.....
 
Curious if anyone can explain cec.
 
Cation exchange capacity. How much ions the soil can hold. clay can hold potassium, magnesium, calcium, and ammonia well. Sandy soil can not.

changing the ionic level of a soil (pH) takes so many ions to increase it. Roughly, clay soil needs alot of lime to get the pH up, but all that resistance to pH chang also means it can hold other things like lots of nutrients.

My sandy soil up north needs a little lime to get the pH decent, but needs it often. Likely twice a year, but I only do it once. Same goes for other nutrients. IT doesn't hold much,so it needs to be replenished often.

Organic material is sorta inbetween the two, likely closer to sandy in capacity than clay. But, it's one of the few ways to change soil compostion without a dump truck. I pump my lime and fertilizer in this more or less barren land area to make green manure. Im hoping the green manure can hold nutrients enough to eliminate the soil CPR after a few years.

chemstry, electricity, and heat go hand in hand.

Gypsum and limestone. They both calcium, but their bond is much dfferent. You nutrient levels are whats bonding, your pH is how much it has bonded overall. Your CEC is basically how small or big your bonding wallet can be.
 
Not sure if this will show up. This is classic michigan beach sand well almost. Lolll. Appreciate your analysis. Ty
 

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This does not replace a true soil test, but some properties have hit n go spots of good soil / bad soil. Like soil erosion differences, bulldozer work, stream beds etc.....
I have some small areas that are lush green surrounded by large areas that are just so, so. I had hopes that the meter might give me an idea about the difference in the soil makeup without having to do a full scale soil sample.
 
Got my soil test results back last week and my pH is about the same as it was before I spread 2 tons/acre of 87% ENP dolomitic lime about a year ago. Not really sure how to move forward with that.

Basic history:
-Sent in samples to U of MN for soil test report last May. Results were 5.6 and 5.7 pH
-I surface spread 2 tons/acre of dolomitic lime with 87% ENP, did not incorporate
-I didn't request enough info on my u of M tests so I sent in another sample to Ward labs for the total soil health assessment in mid July after spreading lime, results were 6.1 pH
-Took samples in late may/early june this year and sent in to ward labs, pH of 5.6 and 5.8. This ground has not been tilled, just had a rye/clover blend drilled into it last fall.

I know it could take a while for the lime to neutralize things especially when not incorporated but these results surprised me.

Soil samples were all taken with a probe to only about 5" depth in a random distribution throughout the plot.

Really dont want to try to find time to spread another load of lime this year..
Have you tried Gypsum? Check this guy out..
http://www.thegypsumguy.com/home.html
 
I have some small areas that are lush green surrounded by large areas that are just so, so. I had hopes that the meter might give me an idea about the difference in the soil makeup without having to do a full scale soil sample.
Your observation about the different growth patterns is certainly a curiosity that stokes the imagination. However, a simple...or full lab soil test (recommended) won't answer your question. Soil is a complicated medium that often defies explanation even by sophisticated soil scientists.
 
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