Help with interpreting soil tests

[SD51555]

I'm struggling to wrap my head around this, what is the difference in nutrients released whether a crop is terminated by crimping, mowing, tilling, or chemical? Any links to videos where they break this down?

There's no difference in nutrients released. What's different is the speed at which they're released and what happens next.

Tillage can be fastest, but all fast means is carbon is burned up and sent into the atmosphere faster, including what was below ground, and you're left with collapsed soil pores, new weeds, compaction, and a naked soil surface. Then you've got crusting, infiltration problems, dead biology because their homes (top two inches) gets fried by the sun, erosion, drought risk, fallow syndrome, soil splashing, and more.

Speed of decomp with no regard to +/- after effects, 1 being fastest,

1. Tillage
2. Mowing and laying into existing live crop (like rye residue into live perennial clover)
3. Rolling down onto existing live crop (just like 2, but with bigger pieces)
4. Mowing down onto bare soil (fine pieces)
5. Rolling down onto bare soil (big pieces)
6. Leave standing above bare soil

What you have to focus on is what you want to happen after the crop is done. You wanna keep your soil critters and their systems alive. They're the ones making tunnels all over the soil profile for air and water infiltration. The residue keeps your soil cool, stops the rain from crusting your surface, keeps soil from splashing up on your live plants, and keeps that whole community alive. That community is turning not only residue into next crop nutrients, they're also turning rock particles and atmospheric gases into useable nutrients. This is why living systems don't need NPK pellets and rarely accumulate residue problems. Two exceptions I could think of are canary grass sloughs and cattail sloughs.

Think of it like an actual town. What would happen to a town's ability to provide goods and services (nutrients and defenses against weather extremes) if the gas and power were shut off, the roads were destroyed, water towers blown up, police defunded, fire fighters gone, paramedics don't come, hospitals gone, water and sewer lines collapsed, and all factories, stores, and homes leveled and set on fire?

Now what if that same town took no missiles, fires, earthquakes, droughts, floods, invasions, hurricanes, mud slides, riots, mass poisoning, etc. What if they just processed their waste into useful resources like compost, cleaned and reused water, recycled products that get used over and over like aluminum, upsourced wood into lumber and lumber into more buildings, organic waste into worms, worms into eggs, eggs into more people, more people into specialists, more specialists into more production, etc.

That's what's going on down there.

 

[Brian662]

Nice analogies, I appreciate your response. So what is the difference between crimped crops and crimped/rolled crops that were sprayed after? My current method of choice is plant green, cultipack (refuse to pay for crimper), and then spray. Is that such a bad method?

 

[SD51555]

Nice analogies, I appreciate your response. So what is the difference between crimped crops and crimped/rolled crops that were sprayed after? My current method of choice is plant green, cultipack (refuse to pay for crimper), and then spray. Is that such a bad method?

I wouldn't look at it as bad or good. "Is it sustainable?" is more important. I don't mean the floofy sustainable that all the pink hairs talk about, I mean will it work long term?

The problem we all seem to run into is we keep repeating year zero, and eventually we're fighting weeds that glyphosate cannot control and then up the ladder of more aggressive and longer residual herbicides we go and we run into things we can't plant after.

I'm still trying to figure this out too. I think if we can space out herbicide treatments to every other year or every third year or longer, the risk of getting taken over by gly-resistant weeds goes down and the dividends of stay-green growing keep coming. But, and here's where I'm stuck, how can we transition from crop to crop each year? In my area, we can run an entire growing season on one transition from spring crop to fall crop.

But like what you're seeing in my sweet clover plot is I still haven't found a crop to leave me a natural opening to just throw and mow into. I thought YSC and rye would leave an opening for anything after they finished their life cycle, but I got a bumper crop of some mystery clover that is tighter than a gnats ass, and I don't think I've gotten much up through it, and it's looking even tighter for this year because it seems there's less rye and very little sweet clover.

 

[Westwind]

The problem we all seem to run into is we keep repeating year zero

Yes! I love that line!!!!

 

[TreeDaddy]

There's no difference in nutrients released. What's different is the speed at which they're released and what happens next.

Tillage can be fastest, but all fast means is carbon is burned up and sent into the atmosphere faster, including what was below ground, and you're left with collapsed soil pores, new weeds, compaction, and a naked soil surface. Then you've got crusting, infiltration problems, dead biology because their homes (top two inches) gets fried by the sun, erosion, drought risk, fallow syndrome, soil splashing, and more.

Speed of decomp with no regard to +/- after effects, 1 being fastest,

1. Tillage
2. Mowing and laying into existing live crop (like rye residue into live perennial clover)
3. Rolling down onto existing live crop (just like 2, but with bigger pieces)
4. Mowing down onto bare soil (fine pieces)
5. Rolling down onto bare soil (big pieces)
6. Leave standing above bare soil

What you have to focus on is what you want to happen after the crop is done. You wanna keep your soil critters and their systems alive. They're the ones making tunnels all over the soil profile for air and water infiltration. The residue keeps your soil cool, stops the rain from crusting your surface, keeps soil from splashing up on your live plants, and keeps that whole community alive. That community is turning not only residue into next crop nutrients, they're also turning rock particles and atmospheric gases into useable nutrients. This is why living systems don't need NPK pellets and rarely accumulate residue problems. Two exceptions I could think of are canary grass sloughs and cattail sloughs.

Think of it like an actual town. What would happen to a town's ability to provide goods and services (nutrients and defenses against weather extremes) if the gas and power were shut off, the roads were destroyed, water towers blown up, police defunded, fire fighters gone, paramedics don't come, hospitals gone, water and sewer lines collapsed, and all factories, stores, and homes leveled and set on fire?

Now what if that same town took no missiles, fires, earthquakes, droughts, floods, invasions, hurricanes, mud slides, riots, mass poisoning, etc. What if they just processed their waste into useful resources like compost, cleaned and reused water, recycled products that get used over and over like aluminum, upsourced wood into lumber and lumber into more buildings, organic waste into worms, worms into eggs, eggs into more people, more people into specialists, more specialists into more production, etc.

That's what's going on down there.

Carbonomics,baby!!!!!!!!

great stuff,SD

bill

 

[TreeDaddy]

I have a question for SD as related to above discussions, C:N ,etc

Suppose a forestry mulcher was used to clean a timber plot or trail

Would broadcasting clover be an option to clean up wood chips, residue ,etc as well as provide a food source?

Would seed to soil contact be an issue?

bill

 

[Foggy47]

I have a question for SD as related to above discussions, C:N ,etc

Suppose a forestry mulcher was used to clean a timber plot or trail

Would broadcasting clover be an option to clean up wood chips, residue ,etc as well as provide a food source?

Would seed to soil contact be an issue?

bill

I used a big forestry mulcher (400 HP) to clear stumps and debris from a few acres of food plots when logging several years ago. I got the owner of the machine to use it to grind stumps to below ground level and picked up some of the excess debris. Used my landscape rake and disk to level the land. I planted rye and buckwheat in the worst ground after that....and it was a slow start on these plots....but its been growing well for a few years now. I may be able to start growing clover on this land soon.....but it was very poor dirt to start.

On some of the better ground I planted clover and rye the following year......and it took well and is part of my regular food plots today.

 

[SD51555]

I have a question for SD as related to above discussions, C:N ,etc

Suppose a forestry mulcher was used to clean a timber plot or trail

Would broadcasting clover be an option to clean up wood chips, residue ,etc as well as provide a food source?

Would seed to soil contact be an issue?

bill

I think a physical barrier would be a challenge. So if there is some depth to the chips it may be a no go. But if they could be stirred in even a little with some dirt, or the seed spread ahead of the mulcher, it could work.

I’ve always wanted to try it. My garden beds are now close to 50% large firewood I bet. I wish I could drive that even higher, but I need to be able to dig down far enough to get plants to depth.

If the science is gonna work, and it should, the most aggressive and lowest C:N legume should thrive in that environment. It might take a little time to get the myco fungi running, but once it’s there, that clover should eat those wood chips like rocket fuel.

I’d go with Dutch white clover if you’re in the northern half of the country. Now I really want to mow off a corner of my clover plot and put down two inches of wood chips to see what happens.


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[FarmerDan]

I have a question for SD as related to above discussions, C:N ,etc

Suppose a forestry mulcher was used to clean a timber plot or trail

Would broadcasting clover be an option to clean up wood chips, residue ,etc as well as provide a food source?

Would seed to soil contact be an issue?

bill

Ummm....may I butt in? I think anything is possible but, in this situation I think the chance for success is very limited. At the micro level there is too much air space in the pile of chips - as I visualize it. Too much air allows for too much drying. A root in dry air is a dead root. Now if you mix some soil with the chips and compact the hell out of it the chances probably go up considerably. But, in any case, there's the chemical reactions involved in the breakdown of the wood chips. And I don't think that process is too conducive to seed germination. All pure speculation on my part - although I have had some stumps in the yard ground. As I seeded that new pile of chips those seeds were screaming for mercy. To speed the breakdown of wood chips add some nitrogen - urea maybe - to feed and grow the microbe population eating and digesting the chip cellulose.

 

[matinc]

SD. Your beyond amazing. I can't thank you enough for your wisdom. Too bad we can't a collection of all your posts to study

 

[bigboreblr]

I planted rye and crimson clover about a month ago in a small expansion of my home plot. Used spring harrows to stir it up. The more soil contact, the better the grow.

I think if you use some discs, it would be ok. Level everything off with a york rake. Spread some rye in the thicker spots, then do a disc pass. Then spread rye and some clover before a 2nd pass. Spread the remaining clover ontop and cultipack or roll tires into it. You'd be ok, perhaps not great.

I will post pics tomorrow of my expansion. I am rototilling it in august and doing wheat, turnips, and clovers. I thought the chips would do more rotting than they have so far.

I got heavier clay loam with about 5% organic material already with plenty of NPK from my soil test this febuary. Bigger issue is compaction and lower pH. Put a 1/2 ton of lime before planting. pH is 5.5, spot right next to plot is 5.7 and they recommended 6 tons an acre of lime as apple tree preplant. Likely toss in 2 tons / acre before tilling it up.


Adding a decent amount of nitrogen fertilizer will help those chips compost quicker. Might be better to wait a year before the nitrgoen, or before using more than the plantings can take up.

 

[SD51555]

SD. Your beyond amazing. I can't thank you enough for your wisdom. Too bad we can't a collection of all your posts to study

I just like to read, discover, share, and try stuff on my own place. Appreciate the kind words.

We've always got the library at least:

Soil fundamentals library

There seems to be enough interest here to warrant a digital library of sorts. This is not my own, so if you've got some great lessons you've found out there, either video or written, please post them up here. I suspect many of us have seen a good bunch of them, but if you don't see it here...

habitat-talk.com

 

[SD51555]

Ummm....may I butt in? I think anything is possible but, in this situation I think the chance for success is very limited. At the micro level there is too much air space in the pile of chips - as I visualize it. Too much air allows for too much drying. A root in dry air is a dead root. Now if you mix some soil with the chips and compact the hell out of it the chances probably go up considerably. But, in any case, there's the chemical reactions involved in the breakdown of the wood chips. And I don't think that process is too conducive to seed germination. All pure speculation on my part - although I have had some stumps in the yard ground. As I seeded that new pile of chips those seeds were screaming for mercy. To speed the breakdown of wood chips add some nitrogen - urea maybe - to feed and grow the microbe population eating and digesting the chip cellulose.

Diesel exhaust fluid is also good for speeding up stump rot and chip breakdown. I had a big oak stump I couldn’t get out with the skid steer. Wasted a lot of time and beat the hell out of the pins and bushings before I quit.

I kept a jug of DEF out by that stump and every couple weeks I’d splash some on there. Don’t have the pics anymore, but it was neat to watch.


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[matinc]

SD how long did it take for the DE F to work.

 

[SD51555]

SD how long did it take for the DE F to work.

Hard to say. I didn’t stick with it. It turned the outside of the stump to algae. I would imagine it could speed up your rot time considerably, but only to the extent you can get it inside the stump.


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[Ben.MN/WI]

I'm not familiar with DE F, will that cause damage to the adjacent soil? I'd like to find a stump removal plan that doesn't involve a bulldozer or excavator and the associated costs.

 

[Brian662]

Some people are allegedly putting DEF on brassicas because it is ~30% urea. Not sure if anyone here has tried that?

 

[matinc]

Unfortunately this is my workout method for stump removal. I have tried drilling holes and putting stump killer inside but not sure that worked very well either. I did see a guy drill a hole in the center and pour gas in with a wick and let it burn. As dry as it is here not sure I can do that now

 

[Brian662]

Drill holes
Soak stump in diesel 1-2 times within 48 hours
Light up some charcoal in a charcoal chimney
Pour on stump

Gone.

 

[SD51555]

I'm not familiar with DE F, will that cause damage to the adjacent soil? I'd like to find a stump removal plan that doesn't involve a bulldozer or excavator and the associated costs.

Won’t hurt the soil. It’s just urea and water. You’re pouring pure N on pure carbon.

If you really want the stumps gone, bite the bullet on a 1-day large mini excavator rental. Probably $600 nowadays, but you can yank 16” stumps at a rate of maybe one every 5 minutes.

If you haven’t tried a day with a large mini, give it a whirl. They get a lot done for what it costs.


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