Lime has been spread, pH not moving.

[Wind Gypsy]

Got my soil test results back last week and my pH is about the same as it was before I spread 2 tons/acre of 87% ENP dolomitic lime about a year ago. Not really sure how to move forward with that.

Basic history:
-Sent in samples to U of MN for soil test report last May. Results were 5.6 and 5.7 pH
-I surface spread 2 tons/acre of dolomitic lime with 87% ENP, did not incorporate
-I didn't request enough info on my u of M tests so I sent in another sample to Ward labs for the total soil health assessment in mid July after spreading lime, results were 6.1 pH
-Took samples in late may/early june this year and sent in to ward labs, pH of 5.6 and 5.8. This ground has not been tilled, just had a rye/clover blend drilled into it last fall.

I know it could take a while for the lime to neutralize things especially when not incorporated but these results surprised me.

Soil samples were all taken with a probe to only about 5" depth in a random distribution throughout the plot.

Really dont want to try to find time to spread another load of lime this year..

 

[4wanderingeyes]

When you did your soil sample, what was the lime recommendations per acre? I usually cut it in half, apply half now, half in a year. But I usually lightly disced mine in.
After applying the recommended amount, I usually retest in 5 years then reapply what is needed.

Factor in sandy soil, it will go right through, and heavy clay, it will take a long time to break the surface unless you work it in. Several smaller applications work better then one large application.

Depending on what you are trying to grow, 5.7-6.5, most things will grow pretty decent in that anyhow.

 

[SD51555]

I wouldn't stress that just yet. Keep an eye on your forage and see how it looks.

Have you gotten some good moisture to wash it in?

My plots come up 5.6-5.9 pH when I tested at the beginning. I've put on 1.5 ton rates of calcitic pell lime and not seen my pH move much, but the forages look much better. I also use horsetail as a barometer for lime needs. I've got a lot of horsetail coming in one of my plots this year, so it will be getting another shot of calcitic pell sometime this summer, probably right after I mow for fall.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

When you did your soil sample, what was the lime recommendations per acre? I usually cut it in half, apply half now, half in a year. But I usually lightly disced mine in.
After applying the recommended amount, I usually retest in 5 years then reapply what is needed.

Factor in sandy soil, it will go right through, and heavy clay, it will take a long time to break the surface unless you work it in. Several smaller applications work better then one large application.

Depending on what you are trying to grow, 5.7-6.5, most things will grow pretty decent in that anyhow.

Test Recommendation was 2 ton/acre. The lime ended up being pretty wet so I had to run my drop spreader wide open to get it spread decent and just guessing based off of remaining lime pile size that ended up being roughly 2 ton/acre.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

I wouldn't stress that just yet. Keep an eye on your forage and see how it looks.

Have you gotten some good moisture to wash it in?

My plots come up 5.6-5.9 pH when I tested at the beginning. I've put on 1.5 ton rates of calcitic pell lime and not seen my pH move much, but the forages look much better. I also use horsetail as a barometer for lime needs. I've got a lot of horsetail coming in one of my plots this year, so it will be getting another shot of calcitic pell sometime this summer, probably right after I mow for fall.

last summer/fall seemed pretty ideal in regards to moisture and obviously there was a lot of moisture this spring without a deep frost to keep water from soaking in. Quite dry now but there was some moisture left in the ground when i pulled samples.

 

[FarmerDan]

I think it's damned hard to do a good soil sample. Then, doing a second to determine the affects of the treatment prescribed by the first is almost impossible. The depth of your sample(s) has a great impact. So too does time of year and weather related soil conditions. And not all lime is created equal. Was it you applied dolomite? Do you still have the guaranteed analysis? It was wet lime? I know, above, you said it was wet, but was it dry lime that got wet...or just wet lime all the way around?

It is odd. Do you know the soil type? MYSUM?

 

[Wind Gypsy]

I think it's damned hard to do a good soil sample. Then, doing a second to determine the affects of the treatment prescribed by the first is almost impossible. The depth of you sample(s) has a great impact. So too does time of year and weather related soil conditions. And not all lime is created equal. Was it you applied dolomite? Do you still have the guaranteed analysis? It was wet lime? I know, above, you said it was wet, but was it dry lime that got wet...or just wet lime all the way around?

It is odd. Do you know the soil type? MYSUM?

I think it was just wet from being rained on in their yard. not at all powdery dry when delivered. You couldn’t pack it into a ball but it was not dry. Dolomitic lime. It was the extra fine one on the attached. I’m not sure exactly how to classify soil type. 18 CEC on the main field, was surprised to see 9 CEC on the other which I can’t find soil sample tests from last year on.



Edit to add: thinking back more, it is definitely possible I took a shallower soil sample last year of 3-4 inches vs 5+ on all my plugs this year.

 

[FarmerDan]

I think we put a lot of value in soil testing - and it's probably good and right to do so, but.....

I could go on and on and on (One more "on" and I might get kicked out of the forum!) about the inadequacies of the idea. Then add to that the lack of understanding about how to do a good (enough) sampling and one as in me has to wonder about it's value. It is a good start if you don't know what you have but the results aren't absolute.

I don't know if after reading this any bells go off?
https://algreatlakes.com/blogs/news/soil-testing-after-a-drought-originally-posted-2012

You can find your soil types by using The Web Soil Survey application. It's good information to have for the 'serious.' However, I doubt what you find there will help with the answer to your dilemma.

My opinion? You did good, maybe better than good, in applying the lime you did. Put your worries to rest and go on and do what you intended to do. Wait until next year, two years after your lime application, and sample again - if you must. I think a sample every three years, assuming some application of lime and/or fertilizer, is sufficient. Now here's where knowing the soil type is helpful. Different types will hold or leach affects differently.

 

[Barndog56]

Many factors influence soil ph. Among them are calcium, magnesium, potassium, sodium, ammonium, and temperature. In certain situations just a change in soil moisture will change the ph. Soil compaction can raise ph.

The moon can influence soil ph. Soil ph will be highest during the full and new moons, and lower during the weeks between.

In 'The Coming Revolution of Agriculture', Dr. Harold Willis states that plant roots can lower the soil ph from 7 to 4 to release needed nutrients.

These are all excerpts from "When Weeds Talk", by Jay L. McCaman.

 

[Troubles Trees]

I think you just need to disk it in, my farmer neighbor told me I was wasting my time spreading lime on the surface around my trees. He says it has to get incorporated into the soil to make a difference today. I don't know much about these things and still throw lime around my plantings from time to time.

 

[4wanderingeyes]

Lots of good info here, and I dont want to disagree with anyone.

I farmed old school, and small time. I relate it to my food plots, then back off even more then when I farmed. I think soil samples are a great reference to make sure you are going in the correct direction, but they are directed towards cash crops, and people who make a living over of their land. They try to get you into an ideal sweet spot for certain crops, this is a good thing when your land payment depends on 300 bushel corn, and not 250.

But when you are planting a food plot for wildlife, that ideal sweet spot can widen a lot. Rather then 6.7-7.0 for ideal, you can be happy with 5.7-7.0 and still grow most plants in your food plot.
As what was said before, soil tests are a good thing, if testing is consistent each time to measure progress. But if you take a sample on the top of a hill, and 5 inches down one time, then the next time it is at the bottom of a hill 3 inches down, those numbers will be a lot different.

My advise, take it as less then $.02 worth, aim for improvement, retest every 3-5 years, and see if it improved. Take their suggested amounts, and dive it into 2, or 3 and apply some every year. Once you get your ideal numbers, apply a small amount, for upkeep on the numbers, rather then letting it fall again.

 

[Troubles Trees]

Rather then 6.7-7.0 for ideal, you can be happy with 5.7-7.0 and still grow most plants in your food plot.

I couldn't agree more bud, my soil was at 5.7 and everything I have planted has exceeded my expectations, it feeds deer 365 days per year so don't stress much if the numbers aren't perfect.

 

[davidhelmly]

I think you just need to disk it in, my farmer neighbor told me I was wasting my time spreading lime on the surface around my trees. He says it has to get incorporated into the soil to make a difference today. I don't know much about these things and still throw lime around my plantings from time to time.

I’m going to disagree 100% with your farmer neighbor, I’ve done it too many times and know that it works.

 

[BobinCt]

As 4wandering stated above, in sandy soil it can go right through . I have experience with this . I can soil test one section I had cleared with sandy soil and apply the recommended lime and the following year I am back to where I started. Sandy soil is a nightmare , but the alternative is to just grow crops that aren’t as picky and don’t disc. You can still grow plots to attract deer, but if you got very sandy soil, I’d give up on the lime. That’s just my opinion from experience with sandy soil.

 

[SD51555]

I feel compelled to also propose my theory that many poor stands are mis-diagnosed as pH problems when they are other problems like fallow syndrome., low oxygen, low moisture, compaction, lack of diversity, etc.

I don't test anymore, but if I didn't know my soil, I would. Depending on which school of management you subscribe too, those soil tests can be a much bigger deal. I think anyone with new soil should do one comprehensive test to establish a lime recommendation, or perhaps confirm you may not need one. In an always-green system, the rest of that soil data beyond what you need for a lime rec has no value.

Beyond that, I don't know that i'd even keep testing. A good rule of thumb is to plan on adding 1 pound of lime for every pound of NPK fertilizer you apply. That will cancel out the acidification from introduced fertilizer.

 

[FarmerDan]

Let me put this on the table. I'm not suggesting you give it much consideration. I offer it for those who come to this place because they enjoy and marvel at plant growth. We've discussed soil and soil testing at length. To offer the obvious, soil and everything about it determines the vitality of the plant material growing in it. For food plots no amendments are required. If your soil pH is low pick plants that grow well in what you have. Above, SD writes about ..."which school of management you subscribe to." It's an important statement. Know what you have so you know what principals to apply.

For those of you with post-graduate degrees in what ever school of management you graduated from - one time in your endeavor you might, just for the joy of knowing, consider plant tissue testing. At the end, it's not really about what chemistry is found in the soil, it's what the plant can uptake from the soil. Tissue testing requires some thoughtfulness when collecting plant material but the cost is dirt cheap compared to the equipment and materials we all purchase to do this thing we do.

Here's the cost schedule from A&L Labs. At one time long, long ago I used them a lot for this purpose. There are other labs offering the same.

From their web page, "While soil testing is the cornerstone of nutrient management, soil testing alone offers an incomplete picture. Growing crops are an excellent indicator of how well a fertility program is working. Coupling plant tissue analysis with soil analysis provides customers with powerful insight to develop and maintain an effective fertility program for their operations.."
A&L Great Lakes

 

[omicron1792]

Let me put this on the table. I'm not suggesting you give it much consideration. I offer it for those who come to this place because they enjoy and marvel at plant growth. We've discussed soil and soil testing at length. To offer the obvious, soil and everything about it determines the vitality of the plant material growing in it. For food plots no amendments are required. If your soil pH is low pick plants that grow well in what you have. Above, SD writes about ..."which school of management you subscribe to." It's an important statement. Know what you have so you know what principals to apply.

For those of you with post-graduate degrees in what ever school of management you graduated from - one time in your endeavor you might, just for the joy of knowing, consider plant tissue testing. At the end, it's not really about what chemistry is found in the soil, it's what the plant can uptake from the soil. Tissue testing requires some thoughtfulness when collecting plant material but the cost is dirt cheap compared to the equipment and materials we all purchase to do this thing we do.

Here's the cost schedule from A&L Labs. At one time long, long ago I used them a lot for this purpose. There are other labs offering the same.
View attachment 53724
From their web page, "While soil testing is the cornerstone of nutrient management, soil testing alone offers an incomplete picture. Growing crops are an excellent indicator of how well a fertility program is working. Coupling plant tissue analysis with soil analysis provides customers with powerful insight to develop and maintain an effective fertility program for their operations.."
A&L Great Lakes

I’ve thought about that same idea, but have been too lazy to do it. Cool stuff Dan. Thanks for adding it to the board

 

[Skye King]

When I was a kid we farmed soybeans, corn and cotton. Never fertilized the soybeans and can’t remember fertilizing the cotton and corn other than side dressing. Dad NEVER took soil samples, probably never heard of them. The big worry was how many bushels per acre or bales per acre would we harvest and keeping the cost down. We survived and had pretty decent harvests.

I just wonder if all the hype about fertilizer and lime is coming from the corporate side? Those guys need to sell their product to stay in business. “Why not create a culture that thinks they need our product by suggesting they do soil sampling which will show them they need to put down fertilizer and lime?” I know this sounds like conspiracy theory and you are right. BUT?

 

[Wind Gypsy]

When I was a kid we farmed soybeans, corn and cotton. Never fertilized the soybeans and can’t remember fertilizing the cotton and corn other than side dressing. Dad NEVER took soil samples, probably never heard of them. The big worry was how many bushels per acre or bales per acre would we harvest and keeping the cost down. We survived and had pretty decent harvests.

I just wonder if all the hype about fertilizer and lime is coming from the corporate side? Those guys need to sell their product to stay in business. “Why not create a culture that thinks they need our product by suggesting they do soil sampling which will show them they need to put down fertilizer and lime?” I know this sounds like conspiracy theory and you are right. BUT?

I get the impression the bigger operations base their decisions on how much of a bushel boost they are getting from fert to pencil out the value? Seems like it's not entirely a put/take for a single crop thing either as it bigger picture on what is utilized by crop, what is leaching, etc.

Hell, the food plot seed sellers you'd think would benefit from advertising that you don't need to spend a lot of money on fert with their seed.. Stuck between that and people complaining about poor results due to poor fertility i imagine.. My soils NPK look pretty sad but stuff still grows decent.

 

[Skye King]

When I was a kid we farmed soybeans, corn and cotton. Never fertilized the soybeans and can’t remember fertilizing the cotton and corn other than side dressing. Dad NEVER took soil samples, probably never heard of them. The big worry was how many bushels per acre or bales per acre would we harvest and keeping the cost down. We survived and had pretty decent harvests.

I just wonder if all the hype about fertilizer and lime is coming from the corporate side? Those guys need to sell their product to stay in business. “Why not create a culture that thinks they need our product by suggesting they do soil sampling which will show them they need to put down fertilizer and lime?” I know this sounds like conspiracy theory and you are right. BUT?

I get the impression the bigger operations base their decisions on how much of a bushel boost they are getting from fert to pencil out the value? Seems like it's not entirely a put/take for a single crop thing either as it bigger picture on what is utilized by crop, what is leaching, etc.

Hell, the food plot seed sellers you'd think would benefit from advertising that you don't need to spend a lot of money on fert with their seed.. Stuck between that and people complaining about poor results due to poor fertility i imagine.. My soils NPK look pretty sad but stuff still grows decent.

I agree with the food plot seed thing. I was just looking at an article about organic farming and what those guys do about feeding their crops. They can’t use commercial fertilizer if they are really organic farmers and they seem to do ok.