Did I eff myself by buying Dolomitic lime?

[Wind Gypsy]

Thanks for posting that video, i have been looking for a drop spreader the past couple of days or plans to build one. If anyone has plans let me know please.

When I pulled the trigger on the rhino limer there were some 8' and 10' models available on ebay in WI, too wide for me and I didn't want to mess with modifying them. Based on the market i saw, Foggy's would be a good buy unless one is willing to spend a bunch of time digging for a deal, has time to fix it up, and doesn't put much for $ value on their time doing so.

 

[Barndog56]

Another place you can get a soil test that gives you complete info is Logan Labs in Ohio, for $25. https://loganlabs.com/index.html

 

[S.T.Fanatic]

When I pulled the trigger on the rhino limer there were some 8' and 10' models available on ebay in WI, too wide for me and I didn't want to mess with modifying them. Based on the market i saw, Foggy's would be a good buy unless one is willing to spend a bunch of time digging for a deal, has time to fix it up, and doesn't put much for $ value on their time doing so.

When did you buy the rhino limer and what did it run?


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[Wind Gypsy]

When did you buy the rhino limer and what did it run?


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A month or so ago, $3300.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

Should I use dolomitic or calcitic lime?

Know the facts about the magnesium levels in your soil before deciding if you should use dolomitic lime.

www.canr.msu.edu

I had read that and it makes me feel better about using dolomitic lime but it is also frustrating. These sources say there was no measurable difference in alfalfa yields when using cal vs dolomitic lime. That’s cool but they also say high Mg levels typically correspond with compacted, tight, poorly draining soils (what I have) and say nothing about the potential of adding Mg to such soils making them even tighter.. Seems that would be a beneficial thing to address.

I also really doubt the studies performed were on soils as shitty (poorly draining) as mine.

 

[homerj1]

I had read that and it makes me feel better about using dolomitic lime but it is also frustrating. These sources say there was no measurable difference in alfalfa yields when using cal vs dolomitic lime. That’s cool but they also say high Mg levels typically correspond with compacted, tight, poorly draining soils (what I have) and say nothing about the potential of adding Mg to such soils making them even tighter.. Seems that would be a beneficial thing to address.

I also really doubt the studies performed were on soils as shitty (poorly draining) as mine.

What product do the professionals (farmers) use in your area? Don't make this stuff harder than it needs to be

Liming materials for Minnesota soils

What is a liming material? An agricultural liming material contains calcium (Ca) and/or magnesium (Mg) compounds capable of neutralizing soil acidity. These materials include: limestone (both calcitic and dolomitic), burned lime, slaked lime, marl, shells, and by-products like sugar beet lime...

extension.umn.edu

"There are some who believe that, when lime is needed, only calcitic lime should be used.

This belief originates from a concept which suggests that there is an ideal ratio of calcium to magnesium in soils and any deviation from this ratio will cause problems with crop production. Several field trials have been conducted to test the validity of this concept. The results are clear: the ratio of calcium to magnesium in soils has not had any effect on crop yield in the northern Com Belt."

Dolomite or Calcite Ag Lime: What is best? | Minnesota Department of Agriculture

The following information is adapted from a PowerPoint presentation created by Tim Wagar, Former Regional Minnesota Extens

www.mda.state.mn.us

Summary​

• No agronomic evidence that Mg levels in dolomite lime are detrimental to alfalfa
• Should be more concerned about introducing grass tetany in cattle from forages grown on soil with the exclusive use of calcitic lime
• No agronomic or economic reason to "import" purported calcitic lime"

 

[SD51555]

I had read that and it makes me feel better about using dolomitic lime but it is also frustrating. These sources say there was no measurable difference in alfalfa yields when using cal vs dolomitic lime. That’s cool but they also say high Mg levels typically correspond with compacted, tight, poorly draining soils (what I have) and say nothing about the potential of adding Mg to such soils making them even tighter.. Seems that would be a beneficial thing to address.

I also really doubt the studies performed were on soils as shitty (poorly draining) as mine.

It'll probably still grow things just fine if you always keep it green, unless you've already got ponding. You're right to be concerned about the physics if you're going to be spraying and driving heavy equipment on it. Spraying creates compaction. Tractors create compaction. One of the most underrated elements of soil management, is moisture management. We never get rain at the pace we'd like it. Last year it never rained at all and that was a major problem for exposed soil. It just baked and baked and baked, and lots of conventional plots failed.

The opposite can happen when someone is itching to stir clay soup in the spring and it won't quit raining. Last night, it rained cats and dawgs in places. There have been at least 4 rains this season that were a fast two inches + in my area. If that much falls that quickly, I wanna make sure I can not only handle it, but also keep every drop in case it doesn't come again for 3 months. Jimmy Emmons has an infiltration saying for when someone asks him how much rain he got. He says, "All of it."

What kind of weeds are growing in those plots now? That would tell you a lot of about the state of your pore space and ability to get rain into the ground.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

What product do the professionals (farmers) use in your area? Don't make this stuff harder than it needs to be

All the piles of lime I saw in the area for the fields actually worth planting row crops in (read: less stiff and better draining than my soil) were Calcitic lime.

It’s not hard at all now that I know a little more but I already dropped $760 on dolomitic lime. Just trying to understand if it’s worth ditching it for a load of hi cal.

 

[homerj1]

Calcitic lime.

That would seem to be the answer then. Source your lime wherever the local farmers get theirs from.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

What kind of weeds are growing in those plots now? That would tell you a lot of about the state of your pore space and ability to get rain into the ground.

Primarily RCG on the main one. The higher ground 1 acre plot has birdsfoot trefoil, goldenrod, oxeye daisy, fox-and-cubs, clover, and ferns growing in it.

 

[SD51555]

Primarily RCG on the main one. The higher ground 1 acre plot has birdsfoot trefoil, goldenrod, oxeye daisy, fox-and-cubs, clover, and ferns growing in it.

Where you've got the daisey, goldenrod, and hawkweed (fox and cubs), I'd spring for calcitic lime, especially if it's only an acre. I'd want that soil to have every advantage it can before the hawkweed and daisey get any more turf than they already have.

I can't help on canary grass.

 

[Foggy47]

How many tons of dolomitic did you get? (Maybe who delivers the new Calcitic lime will accept your dolomitic lime for shipment to my place? ....and get it off your hands?? Toothy Grin.)

I do have sandy soil.....and was told (by someone?) that I should apply dolomitic lime to my place. Gotta look for my soil sample data to see what I had for properties.

 

[Bassattackr]

Some scary responses on here..

It's not that "black and white". Generally speaking..

- Calcitic Lime tends to be higher in Calcium and lower in Magnesium and Sulfur.

- Dolomitic Lime tends to be lower in Calcium and higher in Magnesium and Sulfur.

1) Until you get a soil test showing your actual values, all the internet reading in the world won't do you any good.

2) Until you find out the source of your lime and see the actual values from the quarry the lime came from, all the internet reading in the world won't do you any good.

See a pattern here?

Call where you bought the lime from and ask their quarry source, from there you can either find out their sampling data online or can call the quarry for this information. In parallel, I'd get a soil test (even the Whitetail Institute ones come back a day or so later) from your local county extension office.

Around "here", we have high Mag soils. If its a better agri services company, they are aware of the local soils and tend to source for lime that helps those ratios the most.

If you put the lime out, either way:

- You're going to get a calcium bump, which is good.

- You're going to get a pH bump, which is good.

The only "risk" is adding Mag to already high Mag soils. Not the end of the world, and hey.. I bet they'll still be lower than mine

 

[MRBB]

When did you buy the rhino limer and what did it run?


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just adding this , Ground Buster also sells and makes ground driver lime spreader d, there nice units, or the one's I seen, made of stainless steel, have several sizes too for about the same price as the
Rhino limer spreader!
I have seen used one's for some decent prices as well
if your looking for a drop spreader for pulverized lime!
here is a link to them

GroundBusters Drop Spreaders | JR Metal Products

www.jrmetalproducts.com

 

[S.T.Fanatic]

I’d rather just build one if I could see some schematics


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[Wind Gypsy]

just adding this , Ground Buster also sells and makes ground driver lime spreader d, there nice units, or the one's I seen, made of stainless steel, have several sizes too for about the same price as the
Rhino limer spreader!
I have seen used one's for some decent prices as well
if your looking for a drop spreader for pulverized lime!
here is a link to them

GroundBusters Drop Spreaders | JR Metal Products

www.jrmetalproducts.com

I looked into them as well. There were none in stock when I was purchasing. My general takeaway from comparison:

-Materials are better and build quality appears better and more refined on the ground buster spreaders.
-The standard ground buster 5000 ($2700) got closer to same price as rhino limer once shipping was added for me. But it only has a 1000# capacity vs claimed 2000# on rhino limer, only has 5" of ground clearance which would require improving some of my access (on a neighbor's property), and doesn't allow you to disengage the beaters to haul lime to location or even for driving empty at higher speeds.
-The Rhino limer lets you disengage the beaters and has high speed hubs so you can pull it down the highway with a pickup.
-The ground buster 5000 deluxe allows you to disengage the beaters and has a higher ground clearance of 9", but you have to spend $2k more ($4650) to get those basic features. Would have been knocking on the door of $5k to get that option once shipping was included.

Being as I didn't intend to spend $3k on a drop spreader, I'll likely try to recoup some $ by making it available for rent on craigslist for other sorry saps like me who cant find the solution they want. The rhino limer would allow folks to hook up to it with a vehicle and take it to their land rather than loading it on a trailer.

Edit to clarify: I did talk with the folks that make the ground busters about the beaters being engaged full time. They didn't think it would ruin anything driving with the gates closed and lime in the hopper but said it would pack things in tight and require you to break up the lime by jamming shovel handle or similar into the hopper to get it flowing and spreading properly again.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

Some scary responses on here..

It's not that "black and white". Generally speaking..

- Calcitic Lime tends to be higher in Calcium and lower in Magnesium and Sulfur.

- Dolomitic Lime tends to be lower in Calcium and higher in Magnesium and Sulfur.

1) Until you get a soil test showing your actual values, all the internet reading in the world won't do you any good.

2) Until you find out the source of your lime and see the actual values from the quarry the lime came from, all the internet reading in the world won't do you any good.

See a pattern here?

Call where you bought the lime from and ask their quarry source, from there you can either find out their sampling data online or can call the quarry for this information. In parallel, I'd get a soil test (even the Whitetail Institute ones come back a day or so later) from your local county extension office.

Around "here", we have high Mag soils. If its a better agri services company, they are aware of the local soils and tend to source for lime that helps those ratios the most.

If you put the lime out, either way:

- You're going to get a calcium bump, which is good.

- You're going to get a pH bump, which is good.

The only "risk" is adding Mag to already high Mag soils. Not the end of the world, and hey.. I bet they'll still be lower than mine

I referenced the test reports from the lime source on the Original post in the thread. My understanding was that the Mg and Ca %s were of main concern in relation to this inquiry. Obviously the ENP can be taken into account with how much is spread. I think ive got a handle on sieve analysis and moisture is important but is there anything besides the Mg and Ca % that you'd want to see in a test?

Regardless, i think i'll spread what i have just because of time constraints but i'm always open to learn for the future.

 

[Foggy47]

I looked into them as well. There were none available when I was purchasing. My general takeaway from comparison:

-Materials are better and build quality appears better and more refined on the ground buster spreaders.
-The standard ground buster 5000 ($2700) got closer to same price as rhino limer once shipping was added for me. But it only has a 1000# capacity vs claimed 2000# on rhino limer, only has 5" of ground clearance which would require improving some of my access (on a neighbor's property), and doesn't allow you to disengage the beaters to haul lime to location or even for driving empty at higher speeds.
-The Rhino limer lets you disengage the beaters and has high speed hubs so you can pull it down the highway with a pickup.
-The ground buster 5000 deluxe allows you to disengage the beaters and has a higher ground clearance of 9", but you have to spend $2k more ($4650) to get those basic features. Would have been knocking on the door of $5k to get that option once shipping was included.

Being as I didn't intend to spend $3k on a drop spreader, I'll likely try to recoup some $ by making it available for rent on craigslist for other sorry saps like me who cant find the solution they want. The rhino limer would allow folks to hook up to it with a vehicle and take it to their land rather than loading it on a trailer.

Just to reflect on some of the above: My EZ Flow 6' Drop Spreader is somewhat the fore-runner of these products. Several other models were made too....and lots of private label stuff was made for many of the big names by EZ Flow. Mine did not have "lockout" hubs.....but some do. I was a bit concerned about this....as in some of my plots I may pull the spreader up to 3/4 miles to a distant plot before opening the gates and dropping lime......and those beaters are just churning away while in transit. However, in reality....this amount of travel was of little concern. Going down the road at highway speeds would not be possible however....just not made for that. I think as long as you stay on your farm....transit is fine without disengaging the beaters. My 2 cents.

The EZ Flows were made long before SS hoppers.....most from the 1940's and 50's. Some of those old steel tubs are rusted out as they were not cleaned up properly. Lots were dropping both lime and synthetic fertilizer back in those times.....and I think most models were from 8 foot to 14 feet wide. Some were cleaned up properly and stored in machine sheds. <----hard to find...but their are a few out there. Most got scooped up by guys like me about ten years or twenty years ago. I have owned two.....one a 12 footer and another was a ten'er. I "flipped" the ten footer and made enough money on it to have the 12' footer cut down to a six'er. Perfect for pulling with a wheeler in tight quarters.

Edit: Forgot to add that many of these machines were used to seed small grains too. Lots of Oats and such were sown with these in some areas of the country. Not sure how well they worked for that?.....but I suppose it could be done and many have a tow hitch on the back for pulling a drag section.

 

[Bassattackr]

I referenced the test reports from the lime source on the Original post in the thread. My understanding was that the Mg and Ca %s were of main concern in relation to this inquiry. Obviously the ENP can be taken into account with how much is spread. I think ive got a handle on sieve analysis and moisture is important but is there anything besides the Mg and Ca % that you'd want to see in a test?

Regardless, i think i'll spread what i have just because of time constraints but i'm always open to learn for the future.

This is useless information unless you also have a soil test in hand to compare it to. One that also tests for Ca and Mg that is..

 

[FarmerDan]

I referenced the test reports from the lime source on the Original post in the thread. My understanding was that the Mg and Ca %s were of main concern in relation to this inquiry. Obviously the ENP can be taken into account with how much is spread. I think ive got a handle on sieve analysis and moisture is important but is there anything besides the Mg and Ca % that you'd want to see in a test?

Regardless, i think i'll spread what i have just because of time constraints but i'm always open to learn for the future.

I've done my best to drive by this discussion but it's still generating 'enthusiasm.' It's a good original question and deserved a simple answer but sometimes we delight in impressing ourselves with how much we think we know and the ability to craft a story from nothing. I'm guilty.

The simple answer to the question(s) about using dolomitic lime is very hard to answer with the limited information provided. I'd like to say this one-time application changes nothing. Maybe that's it. It changes nothing. If you have a problem with tight soils and tight Ca:Mg ratios adding a ton or so of lime on an acre isn't going to change the problem. Sure, it makes it a little worse. If you don't have a problem it isn't going to drastically alter the situation with a one-time application.

Do the math involving percentages of Ca & Mg of tons applied per acres. Was it 18% Ca and 11% Mg? At a ton rate that's 360 lbs of added Ca and 220 lbs of added Mg ------- into a million or two lbs of soil, depending on your soil depth perspective.

In either case, just don't keep doing it!

If you think you have a problem that might be related to Ca & Mg that's a whole different discussion involving more soil tests reporting multitudes of different soil factors; Ca%, Mg%, CEC, organic matter, etc. A complete review of the soil type would be need. I would consult the lab for their summary of soil tests in your area. How many are like yours and are such occurrences rare? NRCS State Soil Scientists love to talk!! Ask yours. What are your soils characteristics? Dig holes in your troubling areas. Look for soil compaction. Do a complete inventory of troublesome weeds. Estimate the quantity. Things like this....I've thought of as I drive by one more time.