Neahawg
5 year old buck +
- Location
- Arkansas zone7b/7a
Great thread!
j-bird
Moderator
- Location
- Decatur County IN (6a)
I hear you! Our "nice" bucks are 3 or 4 years old typically and range from 130 ~ 145 gross. We take a buck of this caliber once every few years.....it isn't an annual thing. I may have seen first hand a B&C buck in my area maybe 3 times.....in my LIFE! Holding out for that opportunity is simply a game of very low odds! IN also only allows you to kill a single buck during our entire deer hunting season - so if you take one.....you better at least make it a good one.
j-bird
Moderator
- Location
- Decatur County IN (6a)
The only advise I can give you is simply based on the 3 things I have done:
#1 - start passing yearling bucks.
#2 - start habitat improvements that truly affect the limiting factor of your habitat.
#3 - hold off on killing does until late and try not to educate them early.
Passing young bucks increases the chance of more of them surviving into the next year - that is pretty simple to understand. Genetics and nutrition can come into play, but age is an easy one to address at least on your place and it doesn't cost you a dime! Nutrition I think falls under habitat and genetics I really don;t think you can affect under free range conditions.
Affecting limiting factor of your habitat is VERY important. I see lots of folks jump into plots and think they should see huge improvements - the hunting industry sort of glorifies plots because there is money to be made there. Well IF you have an area where food is the limiting factor then that may help, but if your deer have enough to eat - plotting may not have even a noticeable impact on your deer. Addressing that habitat limiting factor will grossly help (food, water, cover and space).
I use does as buck bait. I lack cover on my place and I don't even fool myself by thinking I can hold a buck. As such I try to make the does happy for as long as possible....and then when the time comes the bucks come looking for them. The more those does use your place the more the chance that a wanderer will find his way to you as well. This may include giving the does some safe places to stay as well. This includes educating them does early as well - hunting does too early or bumping them a lot early can push them off your place - which in my case is exactly what I don't want.
Bowsnbucks
5 year old buck +
Real nice thread, J-bird. Habitat work DOES pay off eventually. The logging and getting sunlight on the ground is really key in my estimation. We found that to be true at my camp. With some added plantings of Norway and white spruce in the logged areas, we got more security / bedding cover to hold does and thus ........ more bucks coming around in the fall. Great work there, J-bird !! Good luck this fall.
j-bird
Moderator
- Location
- Decatur County IN (6a)
Thought I would make a post about something we hear about but we tend to put off because we don't see the value of it until it's too late.
Keeping records!
I started hunting in roughly 2000, I didn't start keeping any sort of records until roughly 2010. So I lost essentially 10 years of data, that I really wish I had. I will also preface this by saying - I'm an Engineer so numbers and data are not something I fear. In fact I welcome them because especial numbers in raw data can help you tell a story....one way or another.
Now I essentially track the harvests off of my property and county and state harvest information. I should keep records and better data on my plots and the like, but I don't.....at least not yet......see, I still don't learn sometimes :rolleyes:!
I keep my harvest data in an excel workbook - I have different tabs for different things:
County and state harvest data:
Data here is year, antlerless harvest, antlered harvest and totals from the state back to 1987 - I copied this data straight from the state when it was available because I feared they may remove it at some point and it may come in handy. County data is the same, but I also commented on when we implemented out "one buck rule" and the "bonus" number - which was implemented by the state to further reduce antlerless deer.
I also then keep data specific to my place:
Hunter name, date, season, sex of the deer, live weight, weapon used, approx stand location, time, score and any other comments. This then allows me to see different trends that may not otherwise be noticed. This data is since 2010 and has already shown me a few things of interest. You can see I also like the charts to visualize and summarize the data. We seem to spread the harvest over the farm fairly well, far more deer killed with a firearm, far more anlterless deer (with nearly 20% being button bucks), we are far more successful in the evenings, we average a total harvest of roughly 5 deer a year off the place, with 60% of harvests coming in general firearms season. I also track deer that I classify as DNR (did not recover) - It happens to us all, but I wanted to track the number and hunters that tend to shoot/hit deer but not find them......funny how when I started tracking it......it seems the numbers went down!
I also then have a log of every deer I have killed.
Here I track the year, weapon, sex of the deer, tag number, number of points, score. Again the charts tell the story.
Now here is the interesting thing - you can do all sorts of things with data......but you have to have the data FIRST! Do you know exactly how many deer you have tagged? I do! Do you know how many deer your county killed last year? I do! Do you have data to support claims of deer numbers being down in your county or state and thus a lower harvest number? I do! I even have data that I can try to associate live weight to the age of the deer......its a work in progress. The point is that there is a lot of information that we simply forget over time and without a record of it - it's gone.
I don;t keep track of every hunt, or how much fertilizer I applied in a particular plot to support a certain crop or when I applied X amount of gly last year. I should - I really should. Simply because I can do the same thing with that data as I have done with my harvest data. It can be a pain, but the records can help with lots of things. Do you know how much gly you used last year? I have no clue. I have no idea how much triple 15 I applied in my SW plot last year, or even how much time or how many days I hunted in X stand last year. All real good information - especially to show you things that may not be that apparent.
Keeping records!
I started hunting in roughly 2000, I didn't start keeping any sort of records until roughly 2010. So I lost essentially 10 years of data, that I really wish I had. I will also preface this by saying - I'm an Engineer so numbers and data are not something I fear. In fact I welcome them because especial numbers in raw data can help you tell a story....one way or another.
Now I essentially track the harvests off of my property and county and state harvest information. I should keep records and better data on my plots and the like, but I don't.....at least not yet......see, I still don't learn sometimes :rolleyes:!
I keep my harvest data in an excel workbook - I have different tabs for different things:
County and state harvest data:
Data here is year, antlerless harvest, antlered harvest and totals from the state back to 1987 - I copied this data straight from the state when it was available because I feared they may remove it at some point and it may come in handy. County data is the same, but I also commented on when we implemented out "one buck rule" and the "bonus" number - which was implemented by the state to further reduce antlerless deer.
I also then keep data specific to my place:
Hunter name, date, season, sex of the deer, live weight, weapon used, approx stand location, time, score and any other comments. This then allows me to see different trends that may not otherwise be noticed. This data is since 2010 and has already shown me a few things of interest. You can see I also like the charts to visualize and summarize the data. We seem to spread the harvest over the farm fairly well, far more deer killed with a firearm, far more anlterless deer (with nearly 20% being button bucks), we are far more successful in the evenings, we average a total harvest of roughly 5 deer a year off the place, with 60% of harvests coming in general firearms season. I also track deer that I classify as DNR (did not recover) - It happens to us all, but I wanted to track the number and hunters that tend to shoot/hit deer but not find them......funny how when I started tracking it......it seems the numbers went down!
I also then have a log of every deer I have killed.
Here I track the year, weapon, sex of the deer, tag number, number of points, score. Again the charts tell the story.
Now here is the interesting thing - you can do all sorts of things with data......but you have to have the data FIRST! Do you know exactly how many deer you have tagged? I do! Do you know how many deer your county killed last year? I do! Do you have data to support claims of deer numbers being down in your county or state and thus a lower harvest number? I do! I even have data that I can try to associate live weight to the age of the deer......its a work in progress. The point is that there is a lot of information that we simply forget over time and without a record of it - it's gone.
I don;t keep track of every hunt, or how much fertilizer I applied in a particular plot to support a certain crop or when I applied X amount of gly last year. I should - I really should. Simply because I can do the same thing with that data as I have done with my harvest data. It can be a pain, but the records can help with lots of things. Do you know how much gly you used last year? I have no clue. I have no idea how much triple 15 I applied in my SW plot last year, or even how much time or how many days I hunted in X stand last year. All real good information - especially to show you things that may not be that apparent.
j-bird
Moderator
- Location
- Decatur County IN (6a)
Thanks everyone for taking a look. I will never tell you this is "The" way to do this. I screw up all the time! This is simply what I have done and the results thus far. I will honestly say - the larger habitat projects of CRP/NWSG and the timber harvests have had the most impact. They actually addressed my habitat limiting factors. They where also the scariest to be honest about it.
Before I moved to my place I had never ran a chainsaw, or truly operated a tractor before. I had no clue what gly and cleth where and I gave no thought to why deer do what they do. The thought of me using any sort of farm equipment would have been laughable 25 years ago. It has been quite the learning experience and thus far pretty rewarding. I'm a self taught deer hunter on top of all of this, but I now see how it all goes hand-in-hand. I have some hunters on my place say I get "lucky". That may be true to some extent, but understanding how this all ties together and using that knowledge helps create "luck" a little more frequently;)!
Before I moved to my place I had never ran a chainsaw, or truly operated a tractor before. I had no clue what gly and cleth where and I gave no thought to why deer do what they do. The thought of me using any sort of farm equipment would have been laughable 25 years ago. It has been quite the learning experience and thus far pretty rewarding. I'm a self taught deer hunter on top of all of this, but I now see how it all goes hand-in-hand. I have some hunters on my place say I get "lucky". That may be true to some extent, but understanding how this all ties together and using that knowledge helps create "luck" a little more frequently;)!
Redonthehead
5 year old buck +
- Location
- West Central MO
Great thread and data J-bird! I would like to do a similar thread but am held back by the desire to remain private. Don't want the yahoos in my county knowing all about me.
j-bird
Moderator
- Location
- Decatur County IN (6a)
I will tell you that the more you document your place the more value you will get from it (share it with us or not). You forget the things you have done and the dates it was done and the "before" and "after" affects and the like and especially the details. You don't have to spill your guts. You don't have to show faces or your deer or maps of your place and the like - I get that. You can show plots or TSI work and the like, because dirt is dirt and trees are trees.
Sharing information is how many of us here have gotten where we are and without that information many of us would not be where we are. Paul Knox comes to mind. Paul shared so much, but since his passing his knowledge and teaching continue on, because he was willing to share and document his own projects. You may not even know who Paul is/was.....but you will see folks talk about the LC mix and LC this and that. That's because that knowledge was shared and as such Paul lives on, much to our benefit. I didn't now Paul personally but reading his threads and the like have influenced many folks here and on other sites. Paul is sort of like a patron saint of food plots so to speak. The "lickcreek" page/forum is Paul's work and the like - that was his "handle and where the "LC" comes from. He didn't do it for his own benefit - he did it for ours.
I encourage you to share what you are willing to share. We can all learn something from one another....maybe how to do something, maybe how NOT to do something, but the more perspectives we have the better this resource is.
j-bird
Moderator
- Location
- Decatur County IN (6a)
This may be more of a "Blog" type post than anything but I still wanted to add it here because though it isn't directly related it IS important. This is taken directly out of the 2015-2016 Indiana Hunting regulations guide. Now I am NOT a grouse hunter and I don't have grouse on my place and haven't since I have lived there, but this struck a cord with me.
This demonstrates the importance of habitat AND responsible management. Habitat loss is one thing. I realize 95% of Indiana is privately held and thus the state can not mandate large areas of forest to be harvested. However the state can look at the data and react accordingly BEFORE the species faces localized extinction! 1 positive site of 15 possible and over a 4 year period - and NOW they close hunting? Talk about way too little way too late! This poses some real concern regarding some of the things we are seeing in the declining herd and how that is being managed!
This demonstrates the importance of habitat AND responsible management. Habitat loss is one thing. I realize 95% of Indiana is privately held and thus the state can not mandate large areas of forest to be harvested. However the state can look at the data and react accordingly BEFORE the species faces localized extinction! 1 positive site of 15 possible and over a 4 year period - and NOW they close hunting? Talk about way too little way too late! This poses some real concern regarding some of the things we are seeing in the declining herd and how that is being managed!
bueller
Moderator
- Location
- Central Wisconsin
Nice thread. Did you check the bottom jaw on that 2.5 or is that age just a guesstimate? The reason I ask is because our best 1.5's will look like on a good year and we have worse ground than you. They range from small spikes to what you showed.
j-bird
Moderator
- Location
- Decatur County IN (6a)
No - to age deer I lick my finger and then stick that finger in their ....... hahahaha:D
Yes - I look at the jaws to age younger deer specifically. I find that once it gets down to looking at tooth wear of older deer I start looking at body size (I get the live weight of every harvest now), antler score (I tend to score anything over roughly 100") and the like to help support an age estimation. I don't have a lot of experience at aging older deer so I look for as much information as I can to try to support the decision.
landlord
5 year old buck +
- Location
- Chippewa County, Wi
Great thread. Would you be willing to share some templates for others to use? I just started to set up a file for deer sightings so I can learn from my data. This year I finally started to write down what improvements I have done, along with rain gage data when I get up to the cabin, and during my time there. I wish I would have started this 25 years ago. It would have helped me to learn more about how and when the deer are using the different areas of my property.
j-bird
Moderator
- Location
- Decatur County IN (6a)
There is nothing secrete or special about my data and graphs. These are very basic excel sheets. I suggest you arrange them how you feel is best and based on the data you want to collect. Some folks like more detail some don't. Let me put it this way - I'm so stupid when it comes to excel I am not sure I could produce the template, and yet I did what you see. All I could do would be remove my data and let you plug yours in.....and I'm not sure how to even make that available here. The graphs are very simple and basic as well. If your not familiar with excel - it sounds like an opportunity to learn something new. I will be glad to send you my file with my data pulled out of it - send me a PM with an e-mail address. Let me know which pages you are interested in.
hesseu
5 year old buck +
- Location
- SW Missouri
I don't work for them Lol, but check out Sportsman Tracker. You can create logs, and it will do the graphs for you. Really pretty neat. Also, it gives you a "Prediction" link which takes into account wind and barometric pressure where you have your stands located.
ghilliehunter
5 year old buck +
- Location
- Indiana
J-bird, really enjoyed the habitat story. I too own a small farm in Indiana. After reading your post concerning tree harvest, I think it's something I could try. Are you able or willing to share the logger info? I'd be interested.
Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk
Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk
landlord
5 year old buck +
- Location
- Chippewa County, Wi
I have been using that app for wind direction. I had to update it to get the logs. Thanks. I will still set up the excel file for sightings and kill info.
j-bird
Moderator
- Location
- Decatur County IN (6a)
Sure.....the loggers I have used twice now are "Herbert's Sawmill" out of Milhousen, IN. Send me a PM if you want a contact number. It's a family owned business and they have always done right by me. There is also another good outfit called "hope Hardwoods" out of Hope, IN. They are family owned and good folks as well. One of the owners is a neighbor of mine. He got his dander up when I went with Herbert's.....he didn't know my wife is connected to that family thru marriage.....once he understood the situation he was cool again. Most places prefer to stay fairly local as trucking the timber cuts into profits. They also tend to need a fair number of trees or high dollar trees to make it worth while. Small properties tend to struggle with this and the best way to work around that is to find someone else nearby that is having a cut and have them do a "while your in the neighborhood" sort of thing.
If you need help figuring out what you have or the like or want a second opinion let me know and we can try to arrange something as well. I remember when I had my first cutting.....I thought I really screwed up, and I felt I had a real good idea of what I was doing. The after math nearly made me physically sick. However, looking back it was far and away one of the best things I have ever done from a habitat perspective.
j-bird
Moderator
- Location
- Decatur County IN (6a)
OK - I planted my fall plots today. I normally wait until Labor Day weekend to plant my fall plots but I wanted to get a jump on them this year to see if I can produce larger bulbs and more forage. My local seed dealer didn't have his fall seed ready to go so I had to go the BOB route. I typically avoid it, but you do what you have to do.
I bought Antler King's Honey Hole, and Evolved Harvest's Winter PZ & 7 card stud (you can seed the seed breakdown of each in another post I made). I typically use a rototiller, but it wasn't available so I turned to my rusty and trusty 2 bottom plow and disc. It's time consuming but it gets the job done.
My North plot I worked the ground and broadcast the Winter PZ with some of the Honey hole as well. I really liked the dose of winter peas but I wanted to get some bulbs in there as well. I don't know how the deer will react to to the oats since I still have huge amounts of ag soybeans available.
My south corn plot had 2 the ends available so I took advantage of those as well. Same method but I applied the 7 card stud with some of the Honey hole as well. I did try a little experiment as well. I had a few rows of corn that didn't do well so I knocked them down and disced them and broadcast the seed just to see if there is any significant difference. The pic below shows what is the situation on both ends of my corn plot - so I have these sort of "book ending" my corn plot.
Here is my SW plot. You will see the center of this plot didn't quite do so well, so I decided to make the center of it a brassica plot, but I had to make a shooting lane as well. I went in with a machete and cut the corn and laid it on some weeds to smother them and then used the tractor and disc to make a quick shooting lane. I simply broadcast the remained of the Honey Hole here. Now I cut the corn here, but there is no grain yet so there is no baiting here.
I went in and started cutting and then seeded and ever seeded a wide row I found.
I bought Antler King's Honey Hole, and Evolved Harvest's Winter PZ & 7 card stud (you can seed the seed breakdown of each in another post I made). I typically use a rototiller, but it wasn't available so I turned to my rusty and trusty 2 bottom plow and disc. It's time consuming but it gets the job done.
My North plot I worked the ground and broadcast the Winter PZ with some of the Honey hole as well. I really liked the dose of winter peas but I wanted to get some bulbs in there as well. I don't know how the deer will react to to the oats since I still have huge amounts of ag soybeans available.
My south corn plot had 2 the ends available so I took advantage of those as well. Same method but I applied the 7 card stud with some of the Honey hole as well. I did try a little experiment as well. I had a few rows of corn that didn't do well so I knocked them down and disced them and broadcast the seed just to see if there is any significant difference. The pic below shows what is the situation on both ends of my corn plot - so I have these sort of "book ending" my corn plot.
Here is my SW plot. You will see the center of this plot didn't quite do so well, so I decided to make the center of it a brassica plot, but I had to make a shooting lane as well. I went in with a machete and cut the corn and laid it on some weeds to smother them and then used the tractor and disc to make a quick shooting lane. I simply broadcast the remained of the Honey Hole here. Now I cut the corn here, but there is no grain yet so there is no baiting here.
I went in and started cutting and then seeded and ever seeded a wide row I found.
