Hypothetical-protecting the wild turkey

[sandbur]

Turkeys have expanded into most areas of Minnesota where they never existed.

They may cause many problems in low acorn years. Poor forest regeneration? Not enough acorns for other species to eat? Competition with other game birds? One retired state forester has expressed the same concerns.

Sandbur,

You are a very intelligent man and but your love for pheasants clouds your mind on turkeys. You have stated in past posts on various forums that they are one of the reasons for your low pheasant numbers and you'd like to rid your farm/area of them.

Pheasants never existed in this country but turkeys have always been here. You are correct they have expanded their range as man has changed the habitat makeup. They can live in areas where pheasants don't do well without ag production and vast grasslands. Turkeys can also live there just fine as long as there are a few trees around for roosting. Habitat and predator control is key to pheasant numbers along with a climate that allows nesting success and winter survival, central MN and north is not going to be a pheasant mecca. Turkeys have a better chance at success there.

I wish you luck with your pheasant population but turkeys are not the cause of your lack of pheasant issues.

Stay healthy.

Willy

There was an article where some turkey bones were found in a 500 year old campfire in parts of Minnesota beyond their range of about 50 years ago. I suspect their have been cycles of turkeys range changing over time.

I somewhat complain about turkeys with tongue in cheek, but many dedicated whitetail hunters in this area do not like them. They seem to scare the deer when in thick cover.

Last fall I did see a doe and two fawns got fairly close to them, but stopped and backed off. With time, the deer May adapt to them.

You are correct, we are on the edge of the pheasant range. I only went hunting for them for an hour or so last fall.

Thank you for the kind words.

I do wish I could move the turkeys out of a roosting site that used to be my prime rut hunting area. They are a pain in the butt to me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[willy]

Sandbur, I too have been frustrated by turkeys at times when hunting deer with them being noisy and putting deer on alert. I've also enjoyed watching adult deer and fawns chase them in clover plots. It also is a pain when one is sneaking to a stand and runs into turkeys that leave alerting everything in the area something is there that shouldn't be there. I feel your pain. They're good memories though.

Pheasant numbers in the area of the farm I grew up on have plummeted. The family farm is like an oasis in a desert of beans/corn with occasional tree strips and fence lines. There is a huntable population on the farm but one has to be wise in how much harassment they are given. Prior to crp and when crp was incorporated in the area farms we had loads of pheasants and some quail. When crp was removed modern chemical farming has destroyed the ecosystems needed to support pheasants and quail in this area. In fact I joke with buddies and others when talking pheasants they should be put on the endangered species list. The changes in ag that SD points out in the previous page of this thread are the same that I remember and continue to see and those in my opinion are the key culprits of upland game disappearances. If one goes on google earth and pans over NEbraska it will look like the eastern half of the state is made of circles. Center Pivots on every quarter and the corners are usually farmed or have a house on them. Great wildlife habitat.

Every spring and throughout the summer I see literally ten times(0 in NE and at least 10 or more) more pheasants in southern MN on my drive to go fishing. I make this drive 6 to 8 times at least each spring and summer. At least southern MN has some areas that aren't farmed because they are cattails or sloughs and some grassy areas. One would have to look real hard to find areas like that in the eastern half of NE.

Farmers have to make a living and the margins are so narrow that it's hard to have wiggle room for wildlife. The only farms I see that have some enhanced wildlife habitat on are owned by farmers that hunt and there's not many farmers that fit that bill. Unless wildlife is made important to non hunting farmers via compensation it isn't going to get any better.
This truly saddens me.

Your hour of pheasant hunting is probably not much worse than what I see on the family farm. If you and a buddy want to come to northeast NE to walk about 70 acres of crp for pheasants you're are more than welcome. I promise you'll see some but harvest is not guaranteed. I don't know how good of shot you are.:) There are some public places that the state releases pheasants on just prior to the season and throughout and then advertise the locations so people have a place they can go after some pheasants. It's now like a put and take trout hunting experience.

 

[willy]

Back to the turkey protection idea, I started trapping my farm several years ago when our turkey population plummeted as I would find 5 or 6 nests destroyed in my switch grass/shrub plantings. I to over 50 coons the first winter withing 400 yards of the house. It happened to be during the time when prices were "good" so it paid for the traps and even a fishing excursion for marlin. My buddy caught one. (Great memory)

The next year I got 40 some and then its been in the 20s since then. The turkey numbers have come back up but aren't where they were 13 years ago yet, getting closer though. This makes me believe that predation is only part of the problem. I think disease has been an issue in my area as well. I can't change that facet but I for sure will stay on the predator issue. The last 3 years have resulted in a flock of several hens and 30 plus poults hanging out in late summer around the house chasing insects in the clover and chicory. They will come within 5 feet of the house. Fun times from the window. Hens and Toms doing their thing in spring in view from the house have become very common place.

 

[SwampCat]

By all accounts in your area and in mine these are desperate times. Another hypothetical and one that is not spoken aloud...does poison every play a role in wildlife management?

I dont think it does in this day and time - unless a specific hog only poison is ever developed. Too non specific in todays world. I know some of those south GA quail plantation managers wouldnt agree

 

[sandbur]

Sandbur, I too have been frustrated by turkeys at times when hunting deer with them being noisy and putting deer on alert. I've also enjoyed watching adult deer and fawns chase them in clover plots. It also is a pain when one is sneaking to a stand and runs into turkeys that leave alerting everything in the area something is there that shouldn't be there. I feel your pain. They're good memories though.

Pheasant numbers in the area of the farm I grew up on have plummeted. The family farm is like an oasis in a desert of beans/corn with occasional tree strips and fence lines. There is a huntable population on the farm but one has to be wise in how much harassment they are given. Prior to crp and when crp was incorporated in the area farms we had loads of pheasants and some quail. When crp was removed modern chemical farming has destroyed the ecosystems needed to support pheasants and quail in this area. In fact I joke with buddies and others when talking pheasants they should be put on the endangered species list. The changes in ag that SD points out in the previous page of this thread are the same that I remember and continue to see and those in my opinion are the key culprits of upland game disappearances. If one goes on google earth and pans over NEbraska it will look like the eastern half of the state is made of circles. Center Pivots on every quarter and the corners are usually farmed or have a house on them. Great wildlife habitat.

Every spring and throughout the summer I see literally ten times(0 in NE and at least 10 or more) more pheasants in southern MN on my drive to go fishing. I make this drive 6 to 8 times at least each spring and summer. At least southern MN has some areas that aren't farmed because they are cattails or sloughs and some grassy areas. One would have to look real hard to find areas like that in the eastern half of NE.

Farmers have to make a living and the margins are so narrow that it's hard to have wiggle room for wildlife. The only farms I see that have some enhanced wildlife habitat on are owned by farmers that hunt and there's not many farmers that fit that bill. Unless wildlife is made important to non hunting farmers via compensation it isn't going to get any better.
This truly saddens me.

Your hour of pheasant hunting is probably not much worse than what I see on the family farm. If you and a buddy want to come to northeast NE to walk about 70 acres of crp for pheasants you're are more than welcome. I promise you'll see some but harvest is not guaranteed. I don't know how good of shot you are.:) There are some public places that the state releases pheasants on just prior to the season and throughout and then advertise the locations so people have a place they can go after some pheasants. It's now like a put and take trout hunting experience.

I had to smile when you asked about my shooting ability. I haven’t fired a shot with the shotgun for about 19 months.

Thank you for the offer to hunt. My neighbors to the east and to the north both like to hunt. Both have foodplots. My neighbor to the south hunts a bit but not an avid hunter. I now have irrigation on 3 sides of me. None are complete center pivots and we do have wetlands on the adjacent properties. There are some programs to maintain these wetlands as they are the headwaters of a trout stream.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[yoderjac]

I didn't want to post the details here, but speaking of turkey predation, check out this thread: http://www.habitat-talk.com/index.php?threads/what-happened.12047/

 

[ksgobbler]

From the NWTF biologist I have been conversing with

"Predators do cause most of the mortality for nests and young during the spring and early summer. So, it certainly doesn’t hurt anything to remove furbearers during the legal seasons. However, the research has shown that they move right back into an area as soon as the trapping stops (like you stated). Thus, there are usually just about as many predators in an area during the nesting and brood rearing season as there were before trapping commenced in the fall. It takes a massive landscape-scale trapping effort to have any measurable benefit to nest and poult survival. That’s the case due to the ability of those furbearers to quickly recolonize an area. Also, there are several other critters that prey upon turkey nests and/or poults that can’t be trapped or aren’t usually targeted (e.g. snakes, skunks, opossums, rodents, owls, hawks, etc.). I always tell people that it certainly doesn’t hurt to remove predators during the legal seasons but don’t expect to see any major benefits. You get a lot better bang for your buck trying to improve nesting and brood rearing habitat so that the turkeys are more concealed from those predators. That’s why state wildlife agencies almost always promote that approach rather than predator removal. I think continued habitat improvements along with a few years of the harvest reductions and some normal weather during the nesting/brood season will help us more than anything else."

 

[Telemark]

Used to be, when fur prices were high and predator densities were low, turkeys, quail, and rabbits could prosper in mediocre habitat. Now, the habitat has to be something special. My property is something special. It is managed strictly for wildlife - from butterflies to whitetails - but for turkeys and quail - 350 acres isnt enough when your neighboring landowners arent helping. The only turkeys within miles of my place live on a 1000 acre cattle ranch. There is some hardwood there, but the pastures are fescue and generally grazed to the ground. My land is mature hardwood mixed with open areas of NWSG, acres of year round food plots, mast producing trees, etc - yet the turkeys choose the fescue pasture.

The below podcast with Dr Chamberlain from U of GA is pretty eye opening. When he is discussing survival rates of turkey nests and poults - makes you wonder how there is a turkey left alive with everything eating them.
https://www.themeateater.com/listen/meateater/ep-214-gobbling-your-ass-off

That podcast was excellent. Very informative.

 

[TreeDaddy]

There are no more Wild Turkey in east Texas........We drank them........

bill

 

[blueKYstream]

I listened to that podcast and found it very informative as well! I never would have thought a Great Horned Owl would be such a big predator of turkeys, especially of older turkeys. Rat snakes eating 40% of turkey nests was interesting too.

When my dad bought the farm in the early 2000's, there were several flocks of 40-50 birds on the farm. It wasn't long after he planted CRP on the advice of a biologist to add bugs and cover for turkeys. That may have been the worst idea, or at least the amount we did was a bad idea. It's too thick: turkeys don't like walking through thick stuff and deer don't bed in it much. I haven't seen big groups like that until this year, which I'll get to. My dad later bought the adjoining farm and raises cattle on that side just to have some income to report. There tends to me more turkey there flipping cow pies and foraging in the fescue.

3 years ago, I trapped really hard on the above ~500 acres. I took quite a few coons, coyotes, fox, skunks, and possums that year. This past Fall, I've seen more 3-year old birds in flocks than I can remember. There are far more 3 year olds than jakes at this point. I watched a group of about 18 beat the heck out of each other one day while deer hunting last Fall. The fighting purrs were almost deafening. It was one of the cooler things I watched in a while. Yesterday, I went to the farm with my brother to create some thick areas for deer and turkey nesting. I spotted something in the field 200 yards away. I thought maybe it was a bit of hay that was left. I watched it for a bit and saw some ears twitch. At the end of the field was a couple hens. As I drove closer, that patch turned out to be a coyote. That coyote was about 100 yards from the hens and he was waiting for it to come closer. That was cool to see. I wish I had a rifle on me.

I think predation definitely plays a large part in the declining numbers. Some of it may be weather related or the predator/pray pendulum swinging. If you want more turkeys though, there are things you can do to improve the situation.

 

[SwampCat]

I listened to that podcast and found it very informative as well! I never would have thought a Great Horned Owl would be such a big predator of turkeys, especially of older turkeys. Rat snakes eating 40% of turkey nests was interesting too.

When my dad bought the farm in the early 2000's, there were several flocks of 40-50 birds on the farm. It wasn't long after he planted CRP on the advice of a biologist to add bugs and cover for turkeys. That may have been the worst idea, or at least the amount we did was a bad idea. It's too thick: turkeys don't like walking through thick stuff and deer don't bed in it much. I haven't seen big groups like that until this year, which I'll get to. My dad later bought the adjoining farm and raises cattle on that side just to have some income to report. There tends to me more turkey there flipping cow pies and foraging in the fescue.

3 years ago, I trapped really hard on the above ~500 acres. I took quite a few coons, coyotes, fox, skunks, and possums that year. This past Fall, I've seen more 3-year old birds in flocks than I can remember. There are far more 3 year olds than jakes at this point. I watched a group of about 18 beat the heck out of each other one day while deer hunting last Fall. The fighting purrs were almost deafening. It was one of the cooler things I watched in a while. Yesterday, I went to the farm with my brother to create some thick areas for deer and turkey nesting. I spotted something in the field 200 yards away. I thought maybe it was a bit of hay that was left. I watched it for a bit and saw some ears twitch. At the end of the field was a couple hens. As I drove closer, that patch turned out to be a coyote. That coyote was about 100 yards from the hens and he was waiting for it to come closer. That was cool to see. I wish I had a rifle on me.

I think predation definitely plays a large part in the declining numbers. Some of it may be weather related or the predator/pray pendulum swinging. If you want more turkeys though, there are things you can do to improve the situation.

I have had basically the same experience with NWSG - around my place, nothing really uses it unless it gets really woolly and thick - then the hogs will take it over. I am trying to kill my NWSG out. I think many places - my own included - just dont have enough turkeys to overcome predation and increase in numbers. When you get pictures of only two or three turkeys a year, and your neighbors arent holding numbers of turkeys either - I think they just get lucky and barely hang on. I think if they could ever have three good nesting years in a row and build their population - they might could maintain then - in good habitat with a little protection from the predators. But good habitat doesnt make turkeys - turkeys make turkeys and if you dont have turkeys, it is hard to grow them out of the dirt.

 

[Natty Bumppo]

Not sure if you guys like Growing Deer TV. It's the only show I watch regularly. Thought I'd share a great episode on turkey numbers and trapping he did a few months ago.

How's The Turkey Pop. Where You Hunt?

 

[SwampCat]

It is interesting to me to see the biologists finally accepting reality. Five years ago, the southern turkey decline was due to habitat issues - according to most biologists. Yes, most of them did admit predation was an issue - but pretty much all of them discounted it - claiming good habitat was first and foremost and would overcome predation. Now most biologists are abandoning that archaic though process and are starting to admit predation is the single biggest cause of turkey population declines. You can probably overcome predation with excellent turkey habitat - but there are going to be few places with excellent turkey habitat. To be successful widespread, Turkeys need to be able to raise a nest in moderate habitat as well - and predators are preventing that from happening.

 

[yoderjac]

The predator "issue" tends to be self-correcting. That may be why it is discounted.

- Turkeys introduced. Numbers too small to impact predators. Largely ignored.
- Plenty of habitat for turkey numbers to grow. As number grow, they get more focus from predators.
- Turkey populations explode over time and become a major prey species for many predator populations. Predator numbers grow.
- Turkey populations begin to decline. Predator number stay high for a while and turkey numbers fall dramatically.
- With low turkey populations, predators begin to focus on other prey species. Depending on those relationships, their numbers may decline.
- Turkey numbers stay low for a while and then begin to rebound.
- Cycle continues until equilibrium is reached (it never really is as nature is dynamic).

This predator/prey relationship is only one of the many other complex interrelationships with climate, habitat, hunting, and other predator/prey species. All these cycles and interplay combine to drive populations.

We have an impact on all of this but it is not simple to track from any specific action to the impact on the outcome. While there are some thing we can do, much is out of our control, and there can be a lot of unintended consequences.

Here is some food for thought. Killing predators certainly can't hurt turkey populations right? Not necessarily. For example, coyotes were largely absent in the south east for many, many years. This allowed biologist to study what impact coyotes have on different game species as they move into an area. When it came to deer, there was a clear negative impact on fawn recruitment. At least one study found the impact on turkey was neutral to slightly positive. How can that be? While coyotes are turkey predators, they also predate on other turkey predators so while they killed turkeys, they reduced the number of nest predators. So, killing coyotes may not be helpful where turkey are concerned.

Another interesting opportunity for study the Coyotes offered was predators response to hunting. I was talking to one biologist who was working on a study regarding this. They found that shooting coyotes was actually increasing coyote populations in some cases. They found hunters were shooting a high percentage of certain age/sex classes. The removal of these classes was causing female coyotes to have more pups and more female pups thus increasing populations. Because coyotes were new to the area, habitat was great for them with plenty of prey species. They speculates that female coyotes may have a different response if habitat was poor.

Maybe we should stick to habitat improvement. We can't go wrong there...Right? Another study looked at the impact of coyote on fawns. In habitat where fawning cover had been improved in long narrow strips, coyotes had a larger impact on fawn recruitment than in areas without good fawning cover. Why? Evidently every doe in the area used the good fawning cover. Long narrow strips of fawning cover were very easy for coyotes to hunt and they killed a higher percentage of fawn. In areas without good fawning cover, does distributed their fawning over a much larger area and coyotes killed a lower percentage.

My point here is this. It is easy to jump to seemingly simple answers like killing more predators. In some cases, the simple answer may be the right one, but in most cases the interrelationship are so complex that it is very easy to have good intentions and end up with negative unintended consequences.



Thanks,

Jack

 

[SwampCat]

The predator "issue" tends to be self-correcting. That may be why it is discounted.

- Turkeys introduced. Numbers too small to impact predators. Largely ignored.
- Plenty of habitat for turkey numbers to grow. As number grow, they get more focus from predators.
- Turkey populations explode over time and become a major prey species for many predator populations. Predator numbers grow.
- Turkey populations begin to decline. Predator number stay high for a while and turkey numbers fall dramatically.
- With low turkey populations, predators begin to focus on other prey species. Depending on those relationships, their numbers may decline.
- Turkey numbers stay low for a while and then begin to rebound.
- Cycle continues until equilibrium is reached (it never really is as nature is dynamic).

This predator/prey relationship is only one of the many other complex interrelationships with climate, habitat, hunting, and other predator/prey species. All these cycles and interplay combine to drive populations.

We have an impact on all of this but it is not simple to track from any specific action to the impact on the outcome. While there are some thing we can do, much is out of our control, and there can be a lot of unintended consequences.

Here is some food for thought. Killing predators certainly can't hurt turkey populations right? Not necessarily. For example, coyotes were largely absent in the south east for many, many years. This allowed biologist to study what impact coyotes have on different game species as they move into an area. When it came to deer, there was a clear negative impact on fawn recruitment. At least one study found the impact on turkey was neutral to slightly positive. How can that be? While coyotes are turkey predators, they also predate on other turkey predators so while they killed turkeys, they reduced the number of nest predators. So, killing coyotes may not be helpful where turkey are concerned.

Another interesting opportunity for study the Coyotes offered was predators response to hunting. I was talking to one biologist who was working on a study regarding this. They found that shooting coyotes was actually increasing coyote populations in some cases. They found hunters were shooting a high percentage of certain age/sex classes. The removal of these classes was causing female coyotes to have more pups and more female pups thus increasing populations. Because coyotes were new to the area, habitat was great for them with plenty of prey species. They speculates that female coyotes may have a different response if habitat was poor.

Maybe we should stick to habitat improvement. We can't go wrong there...Right? Another study looked at the impact of coyote on fawns. In habitat where fawning cover had been improved in long narrow strips, coyotes had a larger impact on fawn recruitment than in areas without good fawning cover. Why? Evidently every doe in the area used the good fawning cover. Long narrow strips of fawning cover were very easy for coyotes to hunt and they killed a higher percentage of fawn. In areas without good fawning cover, does distributed their fawning over a much larger area and coyotes killed a lower percentage.

My point here is this. It is easy to jump to seemingly simple answers like killing more predators. In some cases, the simple answer may be the right one, but in most cases the interrelationship are so complex that it is very easy to have good intentions and end up with negative unintended consequences.



Thanks,

Jack

I agree - it is a lot of things - but five years ago, a lot of biologists discounting predators was just asinine. Their own studies proved it. Poor or mediocre habitat may not be helping the turkeys - but it isnt killing them. Predators are killing them. Coyotes are probably not the biggest problem - but in some areas - they can be. Twenty five years ago, a turkey nest predation study in my state did not even mention coyotes - coons and rat snakes were the cause of most predation. Studies in the past ten years show some predation by coyotes - but not as much as coons and snakes - only problem is, coyotes are killing the hens on the nests and preventing the hen from nesting from now on - where as coons and snakes take the eggs, and often, the hen will renest.

I also see what you are referring to with does in good fawning cover. I have a couple areas on my ground several does will choose to fawn in. I might get a picture of a yote or two a week around those areas. Come fawning season, I get two or three pictures a night. I doubt the coyotes start hunting the fawning cover because they know it is fawning season - I believe they start hunting it because the does are in it and their scent attracts the coyotes.

I have hunted and trapped on my land and adjacent lands for forty years. Forty years ago, turkey, quail, rabbits, and cotton rats were numerous. With 36 traps out, I felt good if I could average one or two coons a night. Rarely saw coyote sign, and very few bobcats. Last year, in three weeks, with six traps, I caught 42 coons, three bobcats, two coyotes, a fox, and probably fifteen possums - on the same ground - about 70 acres. My habitat has actually improved since 40 years ago. Surrounding habitat is exactly the same - yet the turkeys, quail, rabbits, and cotton rats are gone.

 

[blueKYstream]

Perhaps you are the only one trapping the area these days whereas in years past others near and far were doing the same due to higher prices? Or, maybe in taking out those predators, it's left an abundance of food (mice, eggs, etc.) and fewer of the same predators for snakes and birds such as crows, hawks, and owls leading to their increase. They may be more efficient turkey killers. I'm just spitballing here, but it's a possibility.

 

[Native Hunter]

I hypothetically protect turkeys by building Merry-Go-Rounds:

 

[SwampCat]

Perhaps you are the only one trapping the area these days whereas in years past others near and far were doing the same due to higher prices? Or, maybe in taking out those predators, it's left an abundance of food (mice, eggs, etc.) and fewer of the same predators for snakes and birds such as crows, hawks, and owls leading to their increase. They may be more efficient turkey killers. I'm just spitballing here, but it's a possibility.

without a doubt, I am the only one trapping in my area. There are very few “prey”species left. For the most part, no small rodents or rabbits, ground nesting birds, etc. Few snakes. There are a fair many frogs and crustaceans. The larger predators primarily live on the smaller predators. The cats and coyotes live on coons, piglets, and fawns and what assorted birds, and the few mice or rats they might find. The coons foxes and possums live on forgs, fruits, crawfish, snakes, tadpoles, etc. The hogs live off anything they can find. Coons and cats increasing. Coyotes, possums, foxes decreasing. Deer and hogs holding their own. This predator prey relationship has gone on like this for about ten years with fluctuations in predator numbers - eating each other - and very few what we would normally consider prey species like rats, mice, rabbits, quail, and turkeys. I live on my acreage - and I have gone a year without seeing a rabbit. I can bushhog a ripe five acre wheat field and see two cotton rats. Predators dont have to have an abundance of what most biologists consider standard prey species - the producers. When you have a hierarchy or predators lined up, feeding on each other and then have a lone turkey hen start laying eggs, and then sitting on the nest - you are talking about eggs being on the ground for almost 40 consecutive days. Even in rhe best habitat, with the abundance of predators in many areas we now have - it is a miracle any egg can make it 40 days under those conditions.

 

[davidhelmly]

My 80 year old neighbor. Who has Since sold and moved to town always told me to shoot hawks, owls and even eagles. I said OK but never actually did. Maybe the old guys know something we don’t.

Having said that, I’m curious what good a wild turkey really is. Not being a smart @ss. I’ve always wondered. Personally, I don’t hunt them and they drive me nuts when I am hunting what “I” want to hunt. I know that’s a selfish statement but I make it and ask because I’m curious. If they eat the food I plant for deer and they give their life to support animals that also eat deer wouldn’t their reduced numbers also reduce deer eating vermin and leave more food for deer? Again, I know that’s short sighted, and self serving. But I don’t really care for them and wonder what I’m missing.

We are absolutely on the same page with turkeys Bill. I don't get what people see in hunting them, to me they're just a bird and I would rather shoot dove if I'm bird hunting.

 

[Mortenson]

Just a guess, but many including myself still liken a big tom to a big buck. Tricky to hunt and still measures of being a trophy by beard length, spurs, & weight. Then just the outsmarting them by strategy and calling. I never got into goose hunting but I know a ton of guys go bonkers over it. Just seems like it's easier to pick out a trophy turkey than a trophy goose.