Hypothetical-protecting the wild turkey

The eastern subspecies of the wild turkey has been in a sharp decline over the last decade or so. Not telling anyone something they don’t know. Been listening to some podcasts with biologists and man what an uphill battle this bird faces. Habitat loss/transformation, predators, wet springs, etc.

Seeing as we are members of a habitat board I’m sure we are all cognizant of that aspect. We can’t theoretically do anything about wet springs and honestly that is an odd occurrence in terms of population dynamics anyway. So that leaves predators. Fantastic episode of the meateater podcast came out Monday with a researcher from UGA who is an amazing source of information. I will spare the details (but you should really listen, also land and legacy has some from the nwtf convention that are really informative), but essentially a lot of things want to eat a turkey!

As stewards what is our role with predators (again a hypothetical). Most of us don’t have a problem killing a coyote or coon or possum or even a fox. Honestly after learning black snakes are death to a turkey nest I killed two the other day on my place that would normally get a pass. But how about birds of prey? Apparently owls are hell on a gobbler. This researcher said they would routinely kill mature gobblers off the roost. Usually several a year. Why are owls and hawks beyond reproach when we are faced with a real numbers issues in regards to this bird? Im not a birds of prey expert but I don’t think there is a shortage. Where do we draw the line? Just curious peoples opinions on this matter.
*caveat I’m not advocating shooting birds of prey, I know it’s illegal!

First, the decline is not uniform, and quite honestly, I expected it. Wild turkey populations were decimated back during the days of market hunting. The restoration of the wild turkey were one of our most successful conservation stories and it was done primarily thorough sport hunters. I would contend that the restoration functionally acted as an non-native invasive species introduction. What happens when a new species is introduced into an ecosystem is that it is either not well enough adapted and dies out quickly, or the ecosystem is not well adapted to balance it and the population takes off. I would contend the latter is how wild turkey responded to the introduction. Keep in mind that for years after market hunting was banned, predators were not only unprotected, many had a bounty and most were killed on site. So, turkey entered an ecosystem (where they previously lived in balance) that now had limited predators. Because of logging and farming, it offered an even more conducive habitat for wild turkey. Killing many predators was banned and wild turkey populations skyrocketed.

Like non-native invasive species, they populate like mad and suddenly hit a ceiling. The numbers fall fairly dramatically, then rebound, and eventually a balance is found. I expect we've hit that peak with the wild turkey and in time, things will balance.

Sure, one can kill predators, many legally, but it isn't really that simple. For example, coyotes kill and eat wild turkey and predate nests, but some studies show they have a slightly beneficial impact on turkey when they establish in an area. It turns out they kill more nest predators and the net effect is slightly positive.

So, what can we do? I think the most effective long-term thing we can do is habitat management. Good nesting habitat makes nests harder to find by predators. Proximity to good brooding habitat means poults and hens have to move less to get to brooding. Brooding habitat is a crop that attracts insects that grows vertically rather than matting like fescue so that young poults can run through it. Since insects are 90% of the diet of young poults, avoid insecticides. Perennial clover is a great brooding habitat crop as it greens up quickly and attracts insects. Planting it next to a crop that provides vertical cover gives birds good escape cover from avian predators. Soybeans may be a good crop for this as the canopy protects poults from prying eyes of hawks and the like. Connection is important. If hens have to cross open areas with poults to get to brooding, those birds are at risk. Poult mortality goes way down once they are a couple weeks old an can fly up to roost. At first, they can't fly far or high. Having shrubs close by the brooding grounds helps with this.

On the other end of the equation from poult survival we have hen survival. More breeding hens means more clutches of poults which helps with recruitment. In the south, having young pine stands can be helpful. Birds seem to like pines as rooting spots, probably because avian predators can't see them at a distance on the roost. In the north, winter food may be more of an issue than in the south. Things like dogwood berries last into the winter and are in trees above heavy ice and snow. Getting hens through the winter in good condition helps populations.

Hunting regulations play a role here too. We previously had a fall season that overlapped with the first two weeks of gun deer season. With many more hunters in the woods for deer season, flocks got broken up much more often making birds more vulnerable. Many birds were shot by opportunistic deer hunters rather than folks hunting turkey. In our state, they were able to provide more fall hunting opportunities for turkey hunters by moving the fall turkey season outside the first couple weeks of deer season while reducing hen harvest increasing the number of breeding hens for the next spring.

Some level of predator control within the law can be a part of a management plan, but it is probably not the most critical factor.

Thanks,

Jack
 
Missouri was in the same boat that many of you are bragging about in the early 2000s. Not so, now. Rest assured, problems are headed your way, if you like abundant turkeys, I'd get in front of the curve.
 
I cannot understand the turkey situation. Minnesota has seen a decline in some areas, while others are doing fine. My hometown area (Pope County, MN) has experienced a decline--for sure.Mon Turkeys.jpg I have land in Western Iowa, and it not uncommon to see 20-40 turkeys a day while deer hunting. Hopefully there is an answer to the areas seeing lower numbers.
 
Missouri was in the same boat that many of you are bragging about in the early 2000s. Not so, now. Rest assured, problems are headed your way, if you like abundant turkeys, I'd get in front of the curve.
Its almost unfathomable to see where we were vs where we are. I remember on a certain NWR hearing 38 birds gobble sitting in one spot. It was like a tidal wave coming up the river. Last year on the opener 1 bird was gobbling. They reduced us to 1 tag in the spring and tried to close our fall season. Biologists, nwtf biologists, NWTF president all got up and said close the fall season. One commissioner who likes to fall turkey hunt blocked it.
 
Positive sign from yesterday on the cell cam in Minnesota
 

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Im definitely not saying you don’t have a healthy population there and other areas are booming as well. But scientifically the eastern Turkey is down. That is fact. So because one area is strong doesnt mean the majority shares the same luck. Missouri, Georgia, Tennessee, Kentucky are all sucking hind tit relatively speaking. I can give you my stories which support the data but I won’t cause it doesn’t matter.
Individual populations within their range I’m sure are doing fine. With that said science (that is what I like to rely on cause the rest IS anecdotal) says predator numbers are at an all time high. Is it the magic bullet, no. But it is one of the holes in the bucket. As I stated above I’m sure a lot of us work on habitat on our properties which is huge and great, but we can’t stop there in my opinion. Predators furs are no longer valued, tracts of land are getting smaller so coon hunting is not as popular, hawks and owls are flying unchecked. All part of the problem. With that said if your population is good and you enjoy turkeys, I’m jealous and be thankful.
I think you and I do agree that populations are not uniform throughout the country. I don't doubt that for a minute.
I don't think it's a predator problem. Some areas of the country with very high predator numbers also have high numbers of prey species. I've seen that in SW Iowa. They have all the raptors, yotes, fox, bobcats, 'coons, and a few others. Yet, we see lots of turkeys, quail, and pheasant.
Around here, our grouse are in serious decline. Despite having great cover, I have not flushed one or heard one drumming for at least 10 years or more. Pretty much non-existent here in my area. East Central Ohio is the same way. 10 Years ago, there were grouse everywhere, now they are gone.
 
Tap, I will come and help you with your turkey problem...:emoji_grin:
Actually, I don't even hunt them any more. These turkeys are so used to being around people that they aren't even that wary now. When they 1st showed up around here 20 years ago, if they were in the yard and saw you moving inside the house thru the window, they would turn themselves inside out to run away. Now they walk around on my deck. I clean turkey turds off the deck and in my driveway. They peck at their reflection on the basement windows and chrome bumpers on vehicles.
 
I had a video of this at one time. I had it posted somewhere. Can't seem to find it.
2f1e094da77bbbe548375a92f00bc89f.jpg


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Go back and re read may 1st sentence...I said "around here". I'm not saying that there are no areas with depressed turkey populations.

And my observations are not exactly anecdotal. If it were just occasional sightings or just very localized sightings it would be anecdotal but the turkey population here in SW PA ranges across several counties. It's not just in my yard that I see them. Take a drive anywhere in our region, on most any day, and flocks can be seen. Road kill turkeys are common.
I drive for a living, so I do get out and about on a daily basis and I see turkeys along my route every day.
My point is that there are areas with healthy, stable turkey populations.
There were no turkeys in my township until about 1990 and then they started showing up and flocks grew. A few years ago, our winter flock at my home was 103 birds. I counted them as they came out of the woods in a single file...103. That year was an unusually high number of birds. 40-50 birds flocked together during the winter is pretty much a standard sighting. By April, winter flocks break-up and it's then more common to see scattered flocks of 10-20 hens, a dozen Toms, and another dozen Jakes. By May, the hens have separated even more and sightings of single birds are more common.
This pattern has been the normal for 20 years now, so that's not exactly "anecdotal".

And our predator populations have remained stable (high) during the last 20 years. The only things that's really changed is we now have coyotes, which were extremely rare here when the turkey population took hold in the early 1990s, and we have more Barred Owls which were not common 20 years ago. We've always had Horned Owls.
So, I'm not saying turkey populations aren't down anywhere, but I am saying I don't believe it's a predator problem. If it were, then turkey populations in SW PA would suffer. We have plenty of turkeys here. Your milage may vary.
If predators were the cause of a crash in turkey numbers, then why are predators not a problem here?

Im definitely not saying you don’t have a healthy population there and other areas are booming as well. But scientifically the eastern Turkey is down. That is fact. So because one area is strong doesnt mean the majority shares the same luck. Missouri, Georgia, Tennessee, Kentucky are all sucking hind tit relatively speaking. I can give you my stories which support the data but I won’t cause it doesn’t matter.
Individual populations within their range I’m sure are doing fine. With that said science (that is what I like to rely on cause the rest IS anecdotal) says predator numbers are at an all time high. Is it the magic bullet, no. But it is one of the holes in the bucket. As I stated above I’m sure a lot of us work on habitat on our properties which is huge and great, but we can’t stop there in my opinion. Predators furs are no longer valued, tracts of land are getting smaller so coon hunting is not as popular, hawks and owls are flying unchecked. All part of the problem. With that said if your population is good and you enjoy turkeys, I’m jealous and be thankful.

I’m like Tap. I counted 78 in my acre clover field last wk. And I will assure you I have more predators from golden to red to bald eagles to owls including one living in my barn to bear bobcat red and grey fox to coyote to coon and possum.
I occasionally shoot a coyote if it comes by or a coon but certainly no predator work to speak of. And I would never ever kill a black snake.
Land management involves a lot more than ones selection of their own chosen species to hunt. And to ignore the niche that other animals provide is in my opinion really reducing the enjoyment of ones land.
I lived thru the days of raptors being almost nonexistent in the lower 48 and personally I enjoy watching my Redtail dive at 100+mph to grab a snake or my Coopers fly thru a tangle of branches to nail a squirrel before it can take a step. Turkeys?? Just another animal filling a niche of many. Improve nesting areas. Give them safe areas from predators. Promote the landscape for their poults.
Same as I would do for my chickens , cattle, sheep ,goats.
And spend some time reading and embracing Aldo Leopold. My opinion.


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Go back and re read may 1st sentence...I said "around here". I'm not saying that there are no areas with depressed turkey populations.

And my observations are not exactly anecdotal. If it were just occasional sightings or just very localized sightings it would be anecdotal but the turkey population here in SW PA ranges across several counties. It's not just in my yard that I see them. Take a drive anywhere in our region, on most any day, and flocks can be seen. Road kill turkeys are common.
I drive for a living, so I do get out and about on a daily basis and I see turkeys along my route every day.
My point is that there are areas with healthy, stable turkey populations.
There were no turkeys in my township until about 1990 and then they started showing up and flocks grew. A few years ago, our winter flock at my home was 103 birds. I counted them as they came out of the woods in a single file...103. That year was an unusually high number of birds. 40-50 birds flocked together during the winter is pretty much a standard sighting. By April, winter flocks break-up and it's then more common to see scattered flocks of 10-20 hens, a dozen Toms, and another dozen Jakes. By May, the hens have separated even more and sightings of single birds are more common.
This pattern has been the normal for 20 years now, so that's not exactly "anecdotal".

And our predator populations have remained stable (high) during the last 20 years. The only things that's really changed is we now have coyotes, which were extremely rare here when the turkey population took hold in the early 1990s, and we have more Barred Owls which were not common 20 years ago. We've always had Horned Owls.
So, I'm not saying turkey populations aren't down anywhere, but I am saying I don't believe it's a predator problem. If it were, then turkey populations in SW PA would suffer. We have plenty of turkeys here. Your milage may vary.
If predators were the cause of a crash in turkey numbers, then why are predators not a problem here?

Im definitely not saying you don’t have a healthy population there and other areas are booming as well. But scientifically the eastern Turkey is down. That is fact. So because one area is strong doesnt mean the majority shares the same luck. Missouri, Georgia, Tennessee, Kentucky are all sucking hind tit relatively speaking. I can give you my stories which support the data but I won’t cause it doesn’t matter.
Individual populations within their range I’m sure are doing fine. With that said science (that is what I like to rely on cause the rest IS anecdotal) says predator numbers are at an all time high. Is it the magic bullet, no. But it is one of the holes in the bucket. As I stated above I’m sure a lot of us work on habitat on our properties which is huge and great, but we can’t stop there in my opinion. Predators furs are no longer valued, tracts of land are getting smaller so coon hunting is not as popular, hawks and owls are flying unchecked. All part of the problem. With that said if your population is good and you enjoy turkeys, I’m jealous and be thankful.

I’m like Tap. I counted 78 in my acre clover field last wk. And I will assure you I have more predators from golden to red to bald eagles to owls including one living in my barn to bear bobcat red and grey fox to coyote to coon and possum.
I occasionally shoot a coyote if it comes by or a coon but certainly no predator work to speak of. And I would never ever kill a black snake.
Land management involves a lot more than ones selection of their own chosen species to hunt. And to ignore the niche that other animals provide is in my opinion really reducing the enjoyment of ones land.
I lived thru the days of raptors being almost nonexistent in the lower 48 and personally I enjoy watching my Redtail dive at 100+mph to grab a snake or my Coopers fly thru a tangle of branches to nail a squirrel before it can take a step. Turkeys?? Just another animal filling a niche of many. Improve nesting areas. Give them safe areas from predators. Promote the landscape for their poults.
Same as I would do for my chickens , cattle, sheep ,goats.
And spend some time reading and embracing Aldo Leopold. My opinion.


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Pretty much my opinion, too.

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That picture with the coons around a feeder looks like that at four different feeders - at the same time - on 300 acres. That is when there aren't twenty or thirty hogs running them off. And lets not forget about an explosion of bobcats we have had in the past five years. Snakes? - better wear your snake boots when prowling around this time of the year. Have had rattlesnakes on the front door step, back deck, rat snakes in the house on a number of occasions. We have snakes out year round. Coyotes - they are the equalizer - they live off coons and pigs - but they dont put a dent in them that I can tell. Two weeks ago, my dog killed three different possums in one night on the back deck eating the cat's food. We have no quail, no rabbits, no cotton rats, and no turkeys - and I don't care how good your habitat is. Large acreages of mediocre habitat will support a few quail, rabbits, and turkeys - I am talking 1000's of acres of commercial pine timberland with 100 acre clearcuts. Last year, in a two week period I trapped/killed 42 coons, five possums, and a gray fox just out of my half acre garden.coons16.JPGpigs3.JPG
 
live trap pregnant females and take about 10 miles away
 
I feel like there is a decent amount of confirmation bias in this thread. “we have a ton of predators but we still have turkeys so it can’t be the predators”. I’m a construction worker, not a biologist. I don’t make up my own theories rather I steal them from those who have boots on the ground and notebooks in hand. Years and years of exhaustive research and technologies we don’t have go into these studies. If those PhD researchers tell us we have a problem I’m inclined to listen. Not sure what they stand to gain by lying. And then I can anecdotally tell you my property in western Kentucky was a prime turkey habitat in years past. Not much on a macro level with the landscape has changed there. But I can tell you today it sucks for turkey hunting. I can stand on an open high point and hear for a long long way, some mornings I may not hear a single bird. Others it’s one or if I’m lucky two. I can also tell you i didn’t see a single turkey from the deer stand this year. ZERO. I hunter no less than 10 weekends. I also have two cell cams running 24/7. I’ve gotten 2 Jakes in the last three weeks. So from where I sit, we have a problem.
 

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So let’s reverse the thinking. I have tons of predators. All the above for 4 decades. Why do I have so many turkey? Serious question per my observations. And trust me no one reads more scientific studies over the years than I do. I get your frustration.


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So let’s reverse the thinking. I have tons of predators. All the above for 4 decades. Why do I have so many turkey? Serious question per my observations. And trust me no one reads more scientific studies over the years than I do. I get your frustration.


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It’s a good point and I don’t have an answer. I would LOVE to see research done on areas that are doing well and correlate that to predator number vs places where brood survival is tanking. And maybe even correlate all of that to habitat quality and see if that is the smoking gun, meaning habitat trumps even lions and tigers and bears. I just think too many smart people on the topic have said predators play such a large role that it’s hard for me to ignore.
Alternatively even if I went rogue and shot every hawk and owl and coon and possum and snake I saw it likely wouldn’t do much as research says you need about 5-6,000 acres to influence a population.
 
That’s kinda my point. Don’t get me wrong. Predators to affect population. But if they truly are the cause of a drastic reduction then there are other factors present. And w any prey predator relationship, the predator population will/would decrease after prey population decrease allowing increase in prey/ your turkeys. I’m agreeing you may have a problem but blame assessment is directed poorly perhaps. It’s free advice so take that as what was paid for. Hope you increase your numbers. Frustrating.


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So let’s reverse the thinking. I have tons of predators. All the above for 4 decades. Why do I have so many turkey? Serious question per my observations. And trust me no one reads more scientific studies over the years than I do. I get your frustration.


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This is a good question and one I think should be studied extensively. There are volumes of studies that shows nest predation is hindering nesting success. There are studies that show predators are eating up young poults. There are studies that show predators are eating up adult turkeys at an alarming rate. Even with the dismal turkey population in my home state, there are isolated areas with a abundance of turkeys. I personally know of an area like that in my state, and it is not pristine turkey habitat - it is cattle country. Most of the studies I read are concerned with finding the limiting factors - predation, lack of habitat, weather, etc. We need more research into areas where turkeys are proliferating - and determine why they are able to be so successful - when ten miles away, turkeys are absent. For whatever reason, there are areas where turkeys are very successful. I am not talking about the northern states where there are a lot of turkeys widespread across vast acreages - I am talking about isolated areas of high turkey density in states where the overall population is declining elsewhere. I would suspect these successful populations somehow maintain enough adult hens to overcome predation loss. Maybe there is a consistent high quality food supply. Maybe there are other ground dwelling animals like rabbits and cotton rats to absorb some of the Predation. Maybe weather patterns have been more favorable in those areas. Many people also have a misconception about what constitutes a lot of predators. Most turkey biologists maintain poult:hen numbers around 2 is sufficient to maintain the population, 1.7/1.8 and below will result in a declining population, and above 2 - an increasing population. Tall Timbers Plantation in Florida developed a predator index. I dont remember the exact calculation, but it was based on the number of visits by predators to artificial scent stations. 30% of the scent stations visited by predators over a specified time period was their break point - over 30% and predator removal might be warranted. In the case of turkeys with poult production of 2 poults per hen, and quail with a scent post visitation rate of 30% - we arent talking about a huge difference in the number of predators which would result in an increasing, stable, or decreasing population. If your turkey population is declining and your poults per hen numbers are 1.8 - you only need to raise your poult production by 20% to achieve nearly 2.2 poults per hen - an increasing population. Theoretically, that might be achieved by removing only 20% of your predators. Probably very few land owners could discern the difference if they had 20 coons and ten coyotes - or 16 coons and 8 coyotes - but, that might make all the difference in the world. Or maybe your place has a lot of cotton rats, or rabbits - and absorbs some of the predation. Tall Timbers Plantation found it often didnt take large reductions in predator numbers to tip the balance in favor of quail. They also found that providing supplemental feed to cotton rats increased their reproductive capacity, providing a healthy cotton rat population to absorb predation that would otherwise fall on the quail where there were low rat densities. A lot of what I have laid out here is iver simplified - but so is saying “I have lots of predators and lots of turkeys, so it cant be predators making a difference.”
 
well I'm in NE pa and a few other parts of PA(north central, south east and central ) with lands I am a part of
and there ain;t no shortage of turkey's here, if anything, there numbers are too high and IMO, competing with a lot of others things in the process
we are void of ruffed grouse for one, which we always had for decades,m minus the past one, where again turkeys populations have gone thru the roof!
they do not leave much behind in acorns, they clean a area like a shop vac here, there in flocks of 20-40 birds at a time
I'm not saying some places are not having issue's either, but MY question would be, what about other critters, are they also dropping

folks have been blaming hawks and birds of prey and coyotes for decades for killing off game, when typically in my experience, its more about loss of GOOD habitat 24/7/365
that animals can strive in
when habitat doesn;t support healthy numbers, they drop, and many strong species that can adapt seem to handle the loss of good habitat better, or just start to get noticed more often! then they see things more and blame them for the loss of other things

this is something I really notice when you are on a land that has good management and a healthy habitat that supports wildlife of all shapes and sizes
get on GOOD lands and odds are you DON"T find low numbers of critters, but the opposite

the facts are IMO< many state game depts DON"T do enough to keep forest and land they have in a healthy state, or they wait way too long to notice things are poor and by then damages are done
this also happens to a lot of private land owners that think magically, lands will be great for wildlife while doing nothing to make it happen!
and then when things are done they are looking for something or some one to blame.

facts are IMO< state game depts, need to be more pro active, after all its there JOB to protect wildlife and when wildlife goes down hill, there to BLAME like it or not

living in PA, a state that was at one time a top 5 pheasant state, to having almost ZERO wild one's and now our state game bird the Ruffed Grouse, FINALLY getting the state game dept to admit something is wrong!

is proof , they act slow if at all and all want to pass the buck on blames, over ever taking credit for there failures!
and I am not even going to address PA's failure with deer numbers and the damages to our forest here due to the game dept again!!

and this is WHY so many that OWN land, are on sites like this, trying to prevent midlife from going away on THERE lands!

we all maybe should be hard on our game depts to stay on top of things and NOT trying to always fix issues after there BAD!
 
Your ruffed grouse crash is due to west nile. That has been debunked for turkeys.
 
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