Hypothetical-protecting the wild turkey

[ksgobbler]

Podcast about KS turkeys. They start talking about the decline about 18 min in

https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/je...EMwqVaYpylL9IIOARaXDkE7JrR3Yvh4&autoplay=true

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

Nm

 

[dogghr]

Heres the review of my late night thinkings of my place and why perhaps it harbors good turkey numbers despite high hunter numbers, and natural predators. I have 70% mature hardwood of mainly white, red, and black oak which due to their maturity produce thousands of tons of hard mast. I have areas of open story, as well as protected areas that allow turkey travel yet protection. I have acres of fallow fields of Broomsedge, brush, grasses, pine. Fields of flowering crops such as clovers/alfalfa/chicory with annual overseeding of various grains planted at low rates. These fields especially harbor a huge crop of insects both above the soil, and within the soil that I have worked hard at improving its OM and texture. Besides the fields and overgrowth providing turkeys love for insects, it provides a community of food for many of my predators as they would rather have a mouse, snake, groundhog, etc than spend energy with other food available. Protected areas allow poults and fawn to survive.
Certainly there is predation of all my game animals, and weather can and has created bad recovery years, but given the chance they rebound quickly. Again just my observations of how my land interconnects a variety of flora, landscape, and food providing the requirements of a multitude of animal niches, especially the ones I chase.

 

[Suburbhunter]

Lots of pieces to the decline pie. In central MD, i'm seeing an increase. I'm in the truck a lot so I put in a lot of windshield time and cover a lot of ground. I'm seeing flocks fairly regularly in places where I never suspected where they would be. I'm working on my Kentucky farm to do what I can to make it more favorable for them.

 

[H20fwler]

Coronavirus is going to hurt the turkey population even more...all these hunters at home now will be hunting every day putting ten times the pressure on anything with a beard. Lots of hunters will be jumping sate to state to chase them if they can.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

Coronavirus is going to hurt the turkey population even more...all these hunters at home now will be hunting every day putting ten times the pressure on anything with a beard. Lots of hunters will be jumping sate to state to chase them if they can.

I live on a big reservoir and you should see the fishing pressure that it is receiving lately! Those poor fish don’t have a prayer.

 

[S.T.Fanatic]

I live on a big reservoir and you should see the fishing pressure that it is receiving lately! Those poor fish don’t have a prayer.

Same with the trout in my area. We are lucky the catch and keep season hasnt started yet.

 

[S.T.Fanatic]

Loss of mature oak forests? Loss of roosting locations? High grading timber, oak wilt, and other diseases?

Where our family farm is in south east minnesota there has never been that many turkeys. The county to the south of us has many times more birds than we do. They aren't native to Minnesota so I guess I could care less what happens to them (in Minnesota)

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

Loss of mature oak forests? Loss of roosting locations? High grading timber, oak wilt, and other diseases?

Where our family farm is in south east minnesota there has never been that many turkeys. The county to the south of us has many times more birds than we do. They aren't native to Minnesota so I guess I could care less what happens to them (in Minnesota)

Neither are those trout you speak of

 

[SwampCat]

Used to be, when fur prices were high and predator densities were low, turkeys, quail, and rabbits could prosper in mediocre habitat. Now, the habitat has to be something special. My property is something special. It is managed strictly for wildlife - from butterflies to whitetails - but for turkeys and quail - 350 acres isnt enough when your neighboring landowners arent helping. The only turkeys within miles of my place live on a 1000 acre cattle ranch. There is some hardwood there, but the pastures are fescue and generally grazed to the ground. My land is mature hardwood mixed with open areas of NWSG, acres of year round food plots, mast producing trees, etc - yet the turkeys choose the fescue pasture.

The below podcast with Dr Chamberlain from U of GA is pretty eye opening. When he is discussing survival rates of turkey nests and poults - makes you wonder how there is a turkey left alive with everything eating them.
https://www.themeateater.com/listen/meateater/ep-214-gobbling-your-ass-off

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

Used to be, when fur prices were high and predator densities were low, turkeys, quail, and rabbits could prosper in mediocre habitat. Now, the habitat has to be something special. My property is something special. It is managed strictly for wildlife - from butterflies to whitetails - but for turkeys and quail - 350 acres isnt enough when your neighboring landowners arent helping. The only turkeys within miles of my place live on a 1000 acre cattle ranch. There is some hardwood there, but the pastures are fescue and generally grazed to the ground. My land is mature hardwood mixed with open areas of NWSG, acres of year round food plots, mast producing trees, etc - yet the turkeys choose the fescue pasture.

The below podcast with Dr Chamberlain from U of GA is pretty eye opening. When he is discussing survival rates of turkey nests and poults - makes you wonder how there is a turkey left alive with everything eating them.
https://www.themeateater.com/listen/meateater/ep-214-gobbling-your-ass-off

That was the most informative podcast I’ve ever heard. I’d expect nothing less from a dawg!

 

[SwampCat]

That was the most informative podcast I’ve ever heard. I’d expect nothing less from a dawg!

I, too, would agree - about the most informative podcast I have ever listened to.

 

[ksgobbler]

I, too, would agree - about the most informative podcast I have ever listened to.

I liked it as well

 

[Troubles Trees]

For what it is worth, here in NY in the 70's I was lucky to see a few turkeys per hunting season. Today the flocks are abundant largely due to conservation. Nature has a way of balancing things but conservation brings target species to a focal point and always seems to bring things around. Predators will always be around, we might start seeing more of one but since there is only so much food it reduces populations of other predators. Recently Bobcats and Fishers are a new problem here.

 

[yoderjac]

Are predators just weeds?

The best definition I've seen for "weed" is simply a plantgrowing where you don't want it to grow. Likewise, is a predator simply an animal doing something I don't like?

When we manage, we are simply trying to manipulate the environment in such a way that it favors some species over others. What I have found over the years is that things work well when I bend nature slightly, but when I try to bend it too much things don't work well. The cost goes way up and the differential benefits seem to go down.

It wasn't too long ago, on this forum, I remember guys cursing turkeys because they were "eating everything and ruining their food plosts" (paraphrased, not actually quoted).

Thanks,

Jack

 

[MRBB]

have to ask, all those that have issue's with low turkey numbers in there area
how many are NOT going to be hunting them there this yr??
and if not, will you then be going to other area';s to kill some?

I ask this, as I seen things like this before, folks complaining about low numbers of "X" animal, and then still hunting and shooting them and still complaining there are none??


I am NOT blaming anyone, but, it doesn;t work if folks don't STOP killing a dying off population
and if folks are skipping hunting things, this also results in showing lower harvest numbers,records!

the better question is, what are folks doing to help numbers stay healthy,, both private and state game dept folks!
can either be part of the solution or part of the problem?
and I again am NOT bashing here, just saying!

 

[ksgobbler]

I dont allow fall turkeys to be taken. I plant food plots just for the turkeys and quail. I am trying to make my grasslands better nesting habitat. There have been years I didnt buy a tag. If my son wouldve wanted to shoot one I would not have taken one this year.

 

[yoderjac]

Here is a thought...Will a reduction in hunting have a positive or negative impact on turkey populations? I would contend that biologists in the individual game departments should be monitoring populations and adjusting seasons and bag limits accordingly. I would content that the largest share of time an money behind the restoration of the wild turkey success came from hunters who wanted to hunt turkey. The NWTF was the epicenter of the restoration along with some state game departments. All hunter dollars. NWTF popularized spring gobbler hunting as it has little if any negative impact on populations. Fall turkey hunting, especially hunting with turkey dogs, is really diminishing.

So, if we as hunters, avoid hunting turkey, what impact will it have on the next generation? How many kids take their cues from what dad gets excited about? As hunter number in general decline, will a reduced dedication and excitement about turkey hunting, reduce the hunter dollars available for supporting turkey management?

Not offering any answers here, just saying that big picture dynamics are complicated. There will be a natural decline in harvest followed by hunting of any species when populations decline. Folks simply want some kind of interaction with their target species and if they don't get it over time interests will change.

It is probably easier for me to step back and take a big picture view as our turkey populations are doing very well locally. Just stimulating thought...

Thanks,

Jack

 

[ksgobbler]

Here is a thought...Will a reduction in hunting have a positive or negative impact on turkey populations? I would contend that biologists in the individual game departments should be monitoring populations and adjusting seasons and bag limits accordingly. I would content that the largest share of time an money behind the restoration of the wild turkey success came from hunters who wanted to hunt turkey. The NWTF was the epicenter of the restoration along with some state game departments. All hunter dollars. NWTF popularized spring gobbler hunting as it has little if any negative impact on populations. Fall turkey hunting, especially hunting with turkey dogs, is really diminishing.

So, if we as hunters, avoid hunting turkey, what impact will it have on the next generation? How many kids take their cues from what dad gets excited about? As hunter number in general decline, will a reduced dedication and excitement about turkey hunting, reduce the hunter dollars available for supporting turkey management?

Not offering any answers here, just saying that big picture dynamics are complicated. There will be a natural decline in harvest followed by hunting of any species when populations decline. Folks simply want some kind of interaction with their target species and if they don't get it over time interests will change.

It is probably easier for me to step back and take a big picture view as our turkey populations are doing very well locally. Just stimulating thought...

Thanks,

Jack

Jack if you listen to that podcast above with the PHD gentleman he contends spring hunting can have negative impacts. He gave me things to think about I hadnt thought of before.

 

[yoderjac]

Jack if you listen to that podcast above with the PHD gentleman he contends spring hunting can have negative impacts. He gave me things to think about I hadnt thought of before.

It really depends on how the seasons are scheduled with respect to mating. Spring harvest is less important than timing with respect to nesting. When populations drop below or exceed three sigma levels, all kinds of funky things can happen. When things get that bad, game departments will restrict hunting. The key is having game departments that are proactive and adjust to keep things from getting to critical levels. There is not doubt that spring seasons "can" have negative impacts if not designed well. I may be a bit spoiled. I've rubbed shoulders with a lot of our game department biologists over the years. They are really top notch and things are structured pretty well here. There voices carry a lot of weight when it comes to regulations. They are not the only voice, but a very significant one. I realize this is not the case in all states.

In our state, turkey populations are increasing in some counties and decreasing in others. The turkey management plan has goals for each county of increase, decrease, or stabilize, just like deer. Seasons are typically adjusted on a regional basis, but there are exceptions in some counties where they are needed. Locally at my farm, we have been managing for deer and turkey for over 10 years now. With a very good hatches the last couple years, we have more birds on our place than ever and more predators as well. Our youth day comes in Saturday and our regular season starts the following Saturday.

Thanks,

Jack