Hypothetical-protecting the wild turkey

[ksgobbler]

He does mention Pennsylvania with the later start being beneficial for the birds. Ideally you dont want the season to start till the hens start incubating. Most states open to early. He also talks about how the pecking order is established and when the dominant bird gets killed early its not as simple as the next man up breeds hens. The pecking order gets turned on its head and delays breeding.

He also talked about the hell great horned owls are on birds. In one of his telemetry surveys a breeding pair of great horned owls killed 2 hens, 4 racoons, and a fox he had radio collared.

 

[trampledbyturtles]

 

[dogghr]

We do have late spring season not beginning till end of April. Everyone complains and the gobblers have started to get quite, but perhaps that is a plus and one reasons for higher numbers. I still suspect our large acreage of hardwood forests, along with overgrown small abandoned farmsteads contribute much to the numbers. This year will be interesting with everything shut down due to the virus as there will be a lot of poaching of both turkey and deer I think. Luckily we have come off a mild winter with decent hard and soft mast crop last fall. Very wet month so far, so time will tell. I like turkey simply because they are our walking insecticide for crops. I do hate turkey in a late evening deer sit when the turkey decide to roost near by. What a cluster.

 

[S.T.Fanatic]

Neither are those trout you speak of

The brook trout are. The water tables have been jacked for the past ten years and stream flow has increased and temperatures have decreased. What this means is that brook trout are popping up in more and more streams all the time. If you could remove all the introduced (the word I should have used instead of non native, which they arent but...) brown and rainbow trout the brook trout would once again flourish and be able to realize their size potential. I love catching big brown trout and If i'm out for a meal I generally keep the rainbows (because they are stocked anyway), it wouldn't stop me from trout fishing if we didn't have them.

 

[SwampCat]

Arkansas has had late spring opening - in comparison to their southern location - for quite some time - and it has made no difference. When very few nests survive predation - for all practical purposes - it doesnt matter if the eggs are fertilized or not if they are being destroyed before making it full term. And it seems here, turkey numbers have suffered more in the big timber areas of the National Forests. In those areas of big timber and mixed field and pasture - there are areas of local abundance. In our state, the most widespread area of huntable numbers now occurs in the commercial pine timberlands.

 

[Troubles Trees]

There are positive sides to hunting Turkeys, even in high predator regions and/or low Turkey number regions. Every area is different but here in NY the numbers are still very good and it hasn't always been that way.
At least a dozen times in my Turkey chasing career I have had Coyotes come to my calls and decoys and I am 100% sure more than twice as often they were coming to my calls or decoys and smelled/saw me before I realized they were even there. As most know, Coyotes are pretty smart hunters and often use the wind to find and track movements so I would imagine when a Coyote realizes a human is doing the calling it relieves some predator kills. I would guess that goes the same for Fox, Bobcat and other predators but I don't know that for fact or have any evidence, just thinking out loud :)

 

[SwampCat]

There are positive sides to hunting Turkeys, even in high predator regions and/or low Turkey number regions. Every area is different but here in NY the numbers are still very good and it hasn't always been that way.
At least a dozen times in my Turkey chasing career I have had Coyotes come to my calls and decoys and I am 100% sure more than twice as often they were coming to my calls or decoys and smelled/saw me before I realized they were even there. As most know, Coyotes are pretty smart hunters and often use the wind to find and track movements so I would imagine when a Coyote realizes a human is doing the calling it relieves some predator kills. I would guess that goes the same for Fox, Bobcat and other predators but I don't know that for fact or have any evidence, just thinking out loud :)

I have had both coyotes and bobcats come in to a turkey call. No doubt, they have done that before - on a real turkey - and probably with some success.

 

[woodduck]

View attachment 28784

Are those Schroeder Cages?

 

[MRBB]

well like it or not, foxes, coyote's and bob cats and such, have to eat too, and them doing so is also what helps wildlife survive as it teaches them to be on alert and in nature, the strong survive, nature of the beast!
still doesn't change the fact, that only way predators numbers increase is if there is food to support them doing so
cannot have one without the other!
or until things run out then, which again, IMO< happens when game depts are slow to see what is going on!
or any land manager misses things!
lots of depts worry more about income than wildlife IMO, till it starts to effect there budgets, THEN they panic and scramble!

 

[MRBB]

another thing that effects turkeys and there numbers is weather, I can say this, weather in MY state and area's in it I am at regularly are NOT the same as they were yrs ago
we seem to have rain almost every other day any more, temps swings are wild, the 4 seasons can almost happen in a 7 day period
many folks want to debate or deny weather changing, defending or disagreeing with global warming, climate change, the earth shifting on its poles or?? what ever!!
but what ever it is, weather IMO, IS changing, and this too is effecting wildlife

 

[trampledbyturtles]

Are those Schroeder Cages?

Dont think so, Dad made about a dozen in the 80s. Sadley he ran over one of the last 4 left this weekend, Ha. Just glad I can still spend some time outdoors with him.

Guess I can't be certain tho. Have about 4 or 5 different kinds on hand. Not real sure.

 

[woodduck]

Dont think so, Dad made about a dozen in the 80s. Sadley he ran over one of the last 4 left this weekend, Ha. Just glad I can still spend some time outdoors with him.

Guess I can't be certain tho. Have about 4 or 5 different kinds on hand. Not real sure.

They are nice looking cages!

 

[SwampCat]

well like it or not, foxes, coyote's and bob cats and such, have to eat too, and them doing so is also what helps wildlife survive as it teaches them to be on alert and in nature, the strong survive, nature of the beast!
still doesn't change the fact, that only way predators numbers increase is if there is food to support them doing so
cannot have one without the other!
or until things run out then, which again, IMO< happens when game depts are slow to see what is going on!
or any land manager misses things!
lots of depts worry more about income than wildlife IMO, till it starts to effect there budgets, THEN they panic and scramble!

The predators might die out after they eat each other. Where I live, for all practical purposes, we have almost no rabbits, quail, turkeys, or cotton rats. We have a lot of coons, a lot of hogs, and a fair many possums, foxes, bobcats, skunks, snakes, and deer. The coons, possums, foxes and skunks live off frogs, crawdads, fruits, and berries. The coyotes and bobcats live off off coons, possums, fawns, and piglets. The hogs live off everything that is left. It is self supporting system. No need for quail, turkeys, rabbits, and cotton rats to support the system. It has been like this for about ten years now - and the overall predator numbers have not declined. Possum, skunk, coyote, and snake numbers have declined, coon and cat numbers have increased - as have hogs.

 

[ksgobbler]

I think the coon numbers here have exploded now that there are corn feeders everywhere. I read an article that there are now more racoons than when columbus landed.

 

[Buckly]

Where’s Davey Crocket when you need him. Bring back the coon skin caps. You can also use the tail as a face mask.

 

[Telemark]

I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but I think the nest and poult predators are often a bigger problem where there is a higher density of human activity. For possums and raccoons, human activity supplements their diet through garbage, road kill, pet food, bird feeders, gardening/farming, etc., allowing a population that is much higher than the land would otherwise support. This also increases the density of mice and rats, which increases the density of foxes and raptors. Add to that the cats and dogs that kill billions of small animals every year, and certain areas just become a nightmare for turkey and other ground nesting birds.

 

[sandbur]

I did not read many of the replies. Turkeys have expanded into most areas of Minnesota where they never existed.

They may cause many problems in low acorn years. Poor forest regeneration? Not enough acorns for other species to eat? Competition with other game birds? One retired state forester has expressed the same concerns.

I for one think we need a spring hen season to reduce their numbers. Maybe something similar to earn a buck. Shoot two hens and then get a gobbler tag.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[willy]

Turkeys have expanded into most areas of Minnesota where they never existed.

They may cause many problems in low acorn years. Poor forest regeneration? Not enough acorns for other species to eat? Competition with other game birds? One retired state forester has expressed the same concerns.

Sandbur,

You are a very intelligent man and but your love for pheasants clouds your mind on turkeys. You have stated in past posts on various forums that they are one of the reasons for your low pheasant numbers and you'd like to rid your farm/area of them.

Pheasants never existed in this country but turkeys have always been here. You are correct they have expanded their range as man has changed the habitat makeup. They can live in areas where pheasants don't do well without ag production and vast grasslands. Turkeys can also live there just fine as long as there are a few trees around for roosting. Habitat and predator control is key to pheasant numbers along with a climate that allows nesting success and winter survival, central MN and north is not going to be a pheasant mecca. Turkeys have a better chance at success there.

I wish you luck with your pheasant population but turkeys are not the cause of your lack of pheasant issues.

Stay healthy.

Willy

 

[SD51555]

I think there are lots of hidden links getting busted in food chains that we don't see and understand. When landscapes turn to mono-cultures, lots of things are lost. Take the pheasant for example. Southern MN used to be loaded with pheasants when small dairy farms dotted the landscape. Crops and farming practices were much different. Cereals and alfalfas used to host tons of bug life.

As a kid, I remember looking in the hopper of the combine and seeing boat loads of crickets, grasshoppers, and spiders. Pests and diseases of corn and beans were beaten with rotation instead of chemical. Every day or every other day, when a dairy farmer would spread manure, they were broadcasting a fresh strip of food on top of the snow.

When host plants disappear, the bugs and critters that depend on them disappear. When those bugs and critters disappear, the next set of critters that depend on those disappear, and so on and so on... Same happens for soil function and nutrient cycling.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

The predators might die out after they eat each other. Where I live, for all practical purposes, we have almost no rabbits, quail, turkeys, or cotton rats. We have a lot of coons, a lot of hogs, and a fair many possums, foxes, bobcats, skunks, snakes, and deer. The coons, possums, foxes and skunks live off frogs, crawdads, fruits, and berries. The coyotes and bobcats live off off coons, possums, fawns, and piglets. The hogs live off everything that is left. It is self supporting system. No need for quail, turkeys, rabbits, and cotton rats to support the system. It has been like this for about ten years now - and the overall predator numbers have not declined. Possum, skunk, coyote, and snake numbers have declined, coon and cat numbers have increased - as have hogs.

By all accounts in your area and in mine these are desperate times. Another hypothetical and one that is not spoken aloud...does poison every play a role in wildlife management?