Hypothetical-protecting the wild turkey

[Howboutthemdawgs]

The eastern subspecies of the wild turkey has been in a sharp decline over the last decade or so. Not telling anyone something they don’t know. Been listening to some podcasts with biologists and man what an uphill battle this bird faces. Habitat loss/transformation, predators, wet springs, etc.

Seeing as we are members of a habitat board I’m sure we are all cognizant of that aspect. We can’t theoretically do anything about wet springs and honestly that is an odd occurrence in terms of population dynamics anyway. So that leaves predators. Fantastic episode of the meateater podcast came out Monday with a researcher from UGA who is an amazing source of information. I will spare the details (but you should really listen, also land and legacy has some from the nwtf convention that are really informative), but essentially a lot of things want to eat a turkey!

As stewards what is our role with predators (again a hypothetical). Most of us don’t have a problem killing a coyote or coon or possum or even a fox. Honestly after learning black snakes are death to a turkey nest I killed two the other day on my place that would normally get a pass. But how about birds of prey? Apparently owls are hell on a gobbler. This researcher said they would routinely kill mature gobblers off the roost. Usually several a year. Why are owls and hawks beyond reproach when we are faced with a real numbers issues in regards to this bird? Im not a birds of prey expert but I don’t think there is a shortage. Where do we draw the line? Just curious peoples opinions on this matter.
*caveat I’m not advocating shooting birds of prey, I know it’s illegal!

 

[Catscratch]

When I was a kids people shot birds of prey as often as they could. Every old farmer or rancher kept a gun in the truck and shot on sight. Kind of like we do yotes now. That's different now, not sure why it changed. I think it has to do with nobody raising chickens anymore.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

When I was a kids people shot birds of prey as often as they could. Every old farmer or rancher kept a gun in the truck and shot on sight. Kind of like we do yotes now. That's different now, not sure why it changed. I think it has to do with nobody raising chickens anymore.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

I know people down south of me in south Georgia on those quail plantations take no mercy on birds of prey.

 

[ksgobbler]

Biologist has been working with me to get rid of raptor perches.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

Biologist has been working with me to get rid of raptor perches.

can you expand on that? I’m interested

 

[Bill]

My 80 year old neighbor. Who has Since sold and moved to town always told me to shoot hawks, owls and even eagles. I said OK but never actually did. Maybe the old guys know something we don’t.

Having said that, I’m curious what good a wild turkey really is. Not being a smart @ss. I’ve always wondered. Personally, I don’t hunt them and they drive me nuts when I am hunting what “I” want to hunt. I know that’s a selfish statement but I make it and ask because I’m curious. If they eat the food I plant for deer and they give their life to support animals that also eat deer wouldn’t their reduced numbers also reduce deer eating vermin and leave more food for deer? Again, I know that’s short sighted, and self serving. But I don’t really care for them and wonder what I’m missing.

 

[buckdeer1]

I think the hawks,owls and eagles are one of the main issues with declining quail and turkeys.I did find a half dozen turkeys that looked like they were dying of a disease about 5 years ago when we were shed hunting and talked to several others that found the same thing.I called F&G but they didn't seem to interested

 

[SwampCat]

Crows and bluejays also eat a lot of turkey eggs. Back in the 70’s and 80’s, quail and turkeys could successfully nest in mediocre habitat because most predators were almost endangered species due to high fur prices. With no fur market, predator densities are high now, and for the most part - at least in the south, quail and turkeys proliferate only in excellent cover and habitat. I feel like most of us will never see quail or turkeys in numbers as in the past across widespread areas of the south again. Deer are easy to manage compared to quail and turkeys.

 

[Tap]

There is no shortage of turkeys around here. The things are everywhere and in good numbers.
I routinely have 30 or more in my yard. They walk on my deck and roost right outside my home.
They are a constant presence here...literally.
And we have hawks, owls, coyotes, fox, crows, opossum, and more raccoons than you can imagine.
I think raptors get a bum rap.
And anything that eats mice, voles, and other rodents are okay in my book.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

There is no shortage of turkeys around here. The things are everywhere and in good numbers.
I routinely have 30 or more in my yard. They walk on my deck and roost right outside my home.
They are a constant presence here...literally.
And we have hawks, owls, coyotes, fox, crows, opossum, and more raccoons than you can imagine.
I think raptors get a bum rap.
And anything that eats mice, voles, and other rodents are okay in my book.

Your evidence unfortunately is anecdotal. Science is saying that the numbers are down. Wayyyy down. For those of us that enjoy turkey and turkey hunting this is horrible. At 39 I can’t believe I may say I lived through the glory years of turkey hunting and have seen the demise. That is sad. So if shooting some hawks and owls and trapping or poising nest predators returns the balance my personal moral compass points in that directions. The classic ends justifies the means for me.

 

[Northbound]

This must be a regional thing. Here the turkeys are nuisance animals, just to many. 25 years ago as a kid I remember it was a pretty cool thing to see some turkeys, a pheasant was no big deal. Now it's the opposite, Turkey's everywhere and if I do see a pheasant, odds are it's one I released. Most fence lines in this area have been removed, weed control is too efficient which is my assumption for both animals changes in numbers. Less habitat for pheasants. Turkeys on the other hand still have woods to roost and are no longer pegged off by predators waiting in the cover of those fence lines. No expert here, just my observations and assumptions while seeing the same land change over my time

 

[H20fwler]

I really like seeing the turkeys here. They are a newer thing in my area being reintroduced in my county about fifteen years ago. We really enjoy hunting them and having them around...one thing I have noticed while calling is that EVERYTHING must want to eat them the way that yotes/foxes/hawks/eagles all come to the call.

 

[Tap]

Your evidence unfortunately is anecdotal. Science is saying that the numbers are down. Wayyyy down. For those of us that enjoy turkey and turkey hunting this is horrible. At 39 I can’t believe I may say I lived through the glory years of turkey hunting and have seen the demise. That is sad. So if shooting some hawks and owls and trapping or poising nest predators returns the balance my personal moral compass points in that directions. The classic ends justifies the means for me.

Go back and re read may 1st sentence...I said "around here". I'm not saying that there are no areas with depressed turkey populations.

Common pic taken from my bathroom window.


And my observations are not exactly anecdotal. If it were just occasional sightings or just very localized sightings it would be anecdotal but the turkey population here in SW PA ranges across several counties. It's not just in my yard that I see them. Take a drive anywhere in our region, on most any day, and flocks can be seen. Road kill turkeys are common.
I drive for a living, so I do get out and about on a daily basis and I see turkeys along my route every day.
My point is that there are areas with healthy, stable turkey populations.
There were no turkeys in my township until about 1990 and then they started showing up and flocks grew. A few years ago, our winter flock at my home was 103 birds. I counted them as they came out of the woods in a single file...103. That year was an unusually high number of birds. 40-50 birds flocked together during the winter is pretty much a standard sighting. By April, winter flocks break-up and it's then more common to see scattered flocks of 10-20 hens, a dozen Toms, and another dozen Jakes. By May, the hens have separated even more and sightings of single birds are more common.
This pattern has been the normal for 20 years now, so that's not exactly "anecdotal".

And our predator populations have remained stable (high) during the last 20 years. The only things that's really changed is we now have coyotes, which were extremely rare here when the turkey population took hold in the early 1990s, and we have more Barred Owls which were not common 20 years ago. We've always had Horned Owls.
So, I'm not saying turkey populations aren't down anywhere, but I am saying I don't believe it's a predator problem. If it were, then turkey populations in SW PA would suffer. We have plenty of turkeys here. Your milage may vary.
If predators were the cause of a crash in turkey numbers, then why are predators not a problem here?

 

[Baker]

Another thing to consider is mowing pastures. Once turkeys start nesting we stay out of the fields with mower till June 15 . This is generally accepted around here to be when poults have been hatched and pastures safe to mow. I don't have the predator killing fetish some have and we still have strong turkey populations on some of the properties I'm involved with.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

Go back and re read may 1st sentence...I said "around here". I'm not saying that there are no areas with depressed turkey populations.

And my observations are not exactly anecdotal. If it were just occasional sightings or just very localized sightings it would be anecdotal but the turkey population here in SW PA ranges across several counties. It's not just in my yard that I see them. Take a drive anywhere in our region, on most any day, and flocks can be seen. Road kill turkeys are common.
I drive for a living, so I do get out and about on a daily basis and I see turkeys along my route every day.
My point is that there are areas with healthy, stable turkey populations.
There were no turkeys in my township until about 1990 and then they started showing up and flocks grew. A few years ago, our winter flock at my home was 103 birds. I counted them as they came out of the woods in a single file...103. That year was an unusually high number of birds. 40-50 birds flocked together during the winter is pretty much a standard sighting. By April, winter flocks break-up and it's then more common to see scattered flocks of 10-20 hens, a dozen Toms, and another dozen Jakes. By May, the hens have separated even more and sightings of single birds are more common.
This pattern has been the normal for 20 years now, so that's not exactly "anecdotal".

And our predator populations have remained stable (high) during the last 20 years. The only things that's really changed is we now have coyotes, which were extremely rare here when the turkey population took hold in the early 1990s, and we have more Barred Owls which were not common 20 years ago. We've always had Horned Owls.
So, I'm not saying turkey populations aren't down anywhere, but I am saying I don't believe it's a predator problem. If it were, then turkey populations in SW PA would suffer. We have plenty of turkeys here. Your milage may vary.
If predators were the cause of a crash in turkey numbers, then why are predators not a problem here?

Im definitely not saying you don’t have a healthy population there and other areas are booming as well. But scientifically the eastern Turkey is down. That is fact. So because one area is strong doesnt mean the majority shares the same luck. Missouri, Georgia, Tennessee, Kentucky are all sucking hind tit relatively speaking. I can give you my stories which support the data but I won’t cause it doesn’t matter.
Individual populations within their range I’m sure are doing fine. With that said science (that is what I like to rely on cause the rest IS anecdotal) says predator numbers are at an all time high. Is it the magic bullet, no. But it is one of the holes in the bucket. As I stated above I’m sure a lot of us work on habitat on our properties which is huge and great, but we can’t stop there in my opinion. Predators furs are no longer valued, tracts of land are getting smaller so coon hunting is not as popular, hawks and owls are flying unchecked. All part of the problem. With that said if your population is good and you enjoy turkeys, I’m jealous and be thankful.

 

[Natty Bumppo]

I don't have the predator killing fetish some have

Fetish? I don't trap or kill predators either, but I wouldn't refer to those who do as having a fetish? You're saying they have some strange sexual attraction to it?

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

Fetish? I don't trap or kill predators either, but I wouldn't refer to those who do as having a fetish? You're saying they have some strange sexual attraction to it?

As I recall he’s posted about trapping coons recently. I don’t get off on killing anything but I understand the role we have

 

[ksgobbler]

can you expand on that? I’m interested

Basically eliminating as much stuff as possible so a raptor cant use it to hunt. It involves alot of tree clearing which many on here dont have the stomach for.

 

[SwampCat]

It is odd that turkeys seem to be doing better in the more northern climates now than their “historical” range across the south. Predators are unequivocally the number one direct cause for low poult production across the south. Study after study proves that. I have lived in the north and I have lived in the south and there is no comparison between nest predator numbers in those two places. Coons, possums, skunks, snakes, and hogs in the south far out number those same predators in the north. Southern living is easy for nest predators. No hibernation required. A corn feeder or two on every forty acre patch of woods. No fur market - I mean you cant sell a coon hide here for $.25 cents. And I hear people say we have lots of turkeys and lots of predators - and I believe that - but the key term is lots of turkeys. I didnt really understand that concept until I struggled to build my deer herd. With a low deer density, fawn recruitment numbers of .5 per doe just seemed to go nowhere. Ten years ago, I had four does on camera surveys and adding two fawns to the population just seemed to go nowhere. We didnt dream of shooting a doe. Ten years later, I had 28 does on my camera survey this year with fawn recruitment numbers of only .3 fawns per doe. Yet 40% less fawn recruitment resulted in four times as many fawns being produced. “Lots of turkeys” can overcome “lots of predators. Few turkeys cant overcome lots of predators. That is where most of the south is - much fewer adult turkeys than fifteen years ago. Tall Timbers Plantation in North FL - one of the premier bobwhite quail research stations in the US - maintains, in general - high density of adult quail is more important than nesting success. I understand that, now. I am not sure what actually caused the decline of our adult turkey population - but there is no doubt that predation is what is keeping the turkey population from increasing.

 

[Suburbhunter]

There is no shortage of turkeys around here. The things are everywhere and in good numbers.
I routinely have 30 or more in my yard. They walk on my deck and roost right outside my home.
They are a constant presence here...literally.
And we have hawks, owls, coyotes, fox, crows, opossum, and more raccoons than you can imagine.
I think raptors get a bum rap.
And anything that eats mice, voles, and other rodents are okay in my book.

Tap, I will come and help you with your turkey problem...