Native Hunter
5 year old buck +
Some of my best forbs came out of the seedbank, but I would not have this tall grass cover without planting. For me, it's a combination of both. They key is to manage it for the species that are important to you.
To Plant or Not to Plant, That is the Question (When converting non-native cool season grass dominated fields to early succession plant communities)
- Thread starter BenAllgood
- Start date
Brian662
5 year old buck +
As soon as I saw the title, it reminded me of this video with Craig Harper, then I read the abstract and realized this was the study he references in the video. He explains some of these practices in some decent detail in this video. It starts around the 1:10:00 mark talking about regeneration in retired ag fields and then around 1:35:00 he talks about returning cool season pasture grass to regenerative ways.
Brian662
5 year old buck +
I took a 12 acre field out of crop rotation last year. I planted about 6 or 7 acres into switchgrass, I have almost a 3 acre linear food plot that runs through it, and left the remaining acres to whatever succession happened as well as some tree/shrub plantings of my choosing. These successional pockets range from 1/8 are to 1/2 acre. The pockets exploded with giant ragweed, box elder, black eyed Susan's, and a host of other species all within the first year. The deer browsed the giant ragweed like crazy and this winter I've noticed them browsing on the thousands of box elder chutes that got 1-2' tall in their first year. It really has been amazing to watch and I almost wish I hadn't spent as much money on switchgrass seed after seeing these pockets flourish.
BenAllgood
5 year old buck +
Thanks for posting that link. I try to keep up with as much of Dr. Harper's stuff as possible, and missed that one. It's a really good video. I like his experiences on letting some blocks of early successional cover reach a mid succession stage in 5-10 acre "bedding blocks" and then keeping a firebreak around those blocks to set back succession with fire whereby keeping them in a bedding type cover. I'm not scared to omit I'm a Harper fanboy, but just because his work explains a lot of what I've seen growing up and watching cattle pasture to forest succession.
I also like his work because he actively does the work instead of just research and comes at it from a point of tailoring his work towards better hunting.
Brian662
5 year old buck +
I've seen some of his stuff and always come away impressed. The only thing I ever second guess is the cover strategy where he applies and tests his stuff is a little different than where I manage property given the climate differences.
It seems like most (if not all) of the best deer research comes from down south as far as the universities and their studies. A lot of the principles that are tried and true down south aren't exactly common place up here.
BenAllgood
5 year old buck +
For sure. I studied wildlife management at LSU and worked at their deer research facility. I've managed a large acreage area in Louisiana for deer hunting. I now own about 50 acres in Kentucky. While I consider Kentucky still in the south or maybe southern midwest, I still have to drive 10.5 hours north to get there. But, I'm having to learn different deer nuances and their use of this different habitat. It's definitely not the same, although a lot of the same principles do apply. Like the cover aspect. In Louisiana, cover is not a limiting factor in a lot of cases. Let a field sit idle, and in a couple of years, deer will bed in it during the winter. In the north, that field will not hold a single deer in the winter for bedding. But, that's where the succession has to progress further to get the structure needed for bedding. It takes a lot longer in the north than it does in the south for natural succession to provide adequate winter cover. Or, plant bedding, and speed it up.
As for the research, I don't know why more of the northern research hasn't trickled out into the hunting community. Lots of telemetry studies have been done in the north. The research just has not been made available in a readily digestible form for people outside the scientific community to the same degree as it has in the south.
TreeDaddy
5 year old buck +
Which is why I try to read anything by Craig Harper
Aplied science to real life habitat scenario
bill
My native forbs do attract a lot of deer during the summer, but I dont believe they attract as many deer as do beans or clover - but that also depends on what other food is a available in the area. Deer use in forbs really plays out in my area during late fall, winter, and early spring. The cool season food plots, or bean plots, really shine then. However, native forbs are probably more attractive to more species of wildlife.
As far as just attracting deer, if I had a forty acre piece of ground without much ag in the area and wanted as many deer on my place as possible - I would plant a ten acre plot of beans right in the middle and overseed it with wheat right before been leaf drop.
But, it you have available acreage and other food sources, the native forbs are attractive and no doubt less labor intensive than a lot of other food plantings. I think too many folks read about all these different management applications and jump into them without really identifying what is deficient on their own property. I have two properties eight miles apart in the same river bottoms. One property is surrounded by cover - so food is what is needed to pull deer from all the neighboring cover. The other property is surrounded by mature hardwood and ag fields, so cover is what the deer seek.
And to be honest, habitat requirements may change on your land, dependent on habitat changes or succession on your own and and neighboring lands.
As far as just attracting deer, if I had a forty acre piece of ground without much ag in the area and wanted as many deer on my place as possible - I would plant a ten acre plot of beans right in the middle and overseed it with wheat right before been leaf drop.
But, it you have available acreage and other food sources, the native forbs are attractive and no doubt less labor intensive than a lot of other food plantings. I think too many folks read about all these different management applications and jump into them without really identifying what is deficient on their own property. I have two properties eight miles apart in the same river bottoms. One property is surrounded by cover - so food is what is needed to pull deer from all the neighboring cover. The other property is surrounded by mature hardwood and ag fields, so cover is what the deer seek.
And to be honest, habitat requirements may change on your land, dependent on habitat changes or succession on your own and and neighboring lands.
SWIFFY
5 year old buck +
On my property I have many acres that have been in cool season grasses for years, 30 maybe more. Before that it was alfalfa and pasture land. I hate the cool season grasses here. They are short and and other than providing some nesting cover it seems to do very little. I have burnt several times and it never comes back any different. Its in a CRP Program that wont allow me to to replant it in warm season grasses until the contract is up.... but I could get away with discing maybe....
So, how does my cool season grass dominated area apply to this? Or doesnt it? Is it possible I have a good "seed bank" beneath the surface that may flourish if i went through it with an aggressive disk? Should it be sprayed? Mowed? I curious as to what you guys commenting here think... as id have at least 15-20 acres that I feel id have nothing to loose on. Id like to try something to improve the property whether it was cover, food, grass, trees, pollinators, whatever. It would have to be better than plain, wide open 15" grass.
What suggestions do you guys have?
Thanks
So, how does my cool season grass dominated area apply to this? Or doesnt it? Is it possible I have a good "seed bank" beneath the surface that may flourish if i went through it with an aggressive disk? Should it be sprayed? Mowed? I curious as to what you guys commenting here think... as id have at least 15-20 acres that I feel id have nothing to loose on. Id like to try something to improve the property whether it was cover, food, grass, trees, pollinators, whatever. It would have to be better than plain, wide open 15" grass.
What suggestions do you guys have?
Thanks
Brian662
5 year old buck +
If you watch the videos I posted with Craig Harper, he says you'll get a better kill on the cool season grasses by mowing in late summer and terminating with gly around the first frost date. A day when the cool season grasses are actively growing (60°F) should do the trick in late October or so. He claims 99% kill success using this method. Adversely he claims only ~60% kill success on a spring spraying.
If I were you, I'd do some test areas using this method and attempting heavy discing in other areas. I would be very surprised if heavy discing didn't release some forbes. I know in normal CRP NWSG planting, one method to bring back forbes is to disc every few years when the grasses begin to choke out the forbes (similar to burning).
Native Hunter
5 year old buck +
Swiffy, my fields were nothing but cool season grass (Fescue). We did two gly kills and then drilled the seed shortly after the second kill. This was late spring or early summer. I have never had a problem with the Fescue coming back. I have certainly had a few things come out of the seed bank that I didn't like, but fescue wasn't one of them. I do see a little in the wintertime, but not enough to bother anything. However, without killing with fescue with gly, you will likely never get anything else to take over - at least not where I live.
SWIFFY
5 year old buck +
Brian & Native,
I will watch Harpers videos when I get a chance. Native are you saying killing the fescue is sometimes enough, and the discing isnt even needed? Or kill it and then I could drill in some Switchgrass?
Thanks for the comments, Im going to try something!
Swiffy
Native Hunter
5 year old buck +
Swiffy, in some instances just killing the fescue might be enough, but in other cases you would be better off drilling in some desirable species. It depends on your seedbank and what is available. Something will come up to replace the fescue, but you can't really tell ahead of time what it will be. Something else to consider - what you see come up the first year will mostly be annuals. You have to wait a couple of years to see what the perennials will be. A new prairie really changes for the first 3 to 5 years as perennials take up more space and push out annuals. Even if you drill switchgrass, you won't see a lot of it in the first couple of years.
For the first 3 or 4 years after I drilled my NWSGs, I spent a lot of time driving a pickup truck through my fields and doing spot spraying to knock back stuff out of the seedbank that I didn't want. A good example is ironweed. It can be an aggressive perennial that has low value for deer. I also sprayed pokeweed, because my deer won't eat it, and it takes up a lot of space. By doing this, I encouraged what I did want by removing what I didn't want. Now I have it the way I want it.
Disking sets back perennials and encourages annuals. If you disk a prairie, it will start looking more like it did in early establishment - with more annuals and fewer perennials.
One final thing - If I hadn't drilled in some new species, I would not have been happy with what came out of the seedbank. I really recommend drilling in some switchgrass and whatever forbs you want.
Good luck.
Brian662
5 year old buck +
Harper contends that killing the fescue should be enough to start the early successional clock moving forward. He tries to manipulate what's growing from that point forward by using spot spraying techniques as well as fire to set back undesirable species. Once you watch the videos, his techniques will be quite clear.
Harper doesn't seem to be an advocate for NWSG plantings although he mentions he has plenty of experience with them. It seems his preferred method is to just let succession happen.
Others like Jeff Sturgis prefer to plant switchgrass because you'll have cover in much shorter order (generally speaking) in our zone than you would with early succession. He likes to leave 1/4 to 3/4 acre pockets within the switchgrass plantings for the deer to have food/browse.
I have done the switchgrass with pockets and I am not disappointed. Next year I'll be turning an 8 acre ag field into a NWSG planting and shrub/conifer lines. I'll also be converting about 10 acres of fescue to early succession using Harpers methods. I hope to have goldenrod be the initial growth followed by shrubs and brambles. Because I didn't terminate it this past fall, I'm going to attempt a spring kill on it doing what Native Hunter did with the two applications of gly.
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
Wow! Your deer must have a lot of great summer nutrition. Pokeweed is very nutritious and one of the preferred natives around here.
Native Hunter
5 year old buck +
Yes, you can watch them just walking through the fields for hours browsing other weeds, but they will not touch poke. However, at my home 20 minutes away, they browse poke literally to death in the fence rows. The difference is that there is very little good habitat and zero summer crops where I live. At the farm, the fields are a deer buffet. Check out my thread called, “Take a walk with me through the prairie” and it makes sense. The link is shown below. PS - If you really want to see a summer deer feast, look at the picture in Post #55 that shows my NWSGs and forbs on one side of the mowed lane and my neighbor's 70 acres of soybeans on the other side.
Take a walk with me through the prairie
First of all, this is not a property tour thread. It about plants that grow in a prairie. Most of you are aware that I manage roughly 60 acres of NWSGs and forbs on my farm. I'm going to start a thread using some old pictures, pictures I took this spring, and some pictures I plan to take...
habitat-talk.com
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Native Hunter
5 year old buck +
One more thing and I will shut up - When I am hunting in November, I will see deer come out in some of my shooting lanes and start eating. Lots of times, they will not even make it to the food plots before dark in the afternoon, because they are spending so much time grazing in the mowed lanes. These are lanes that were mowed around the first of September. Out of curiosity, I will make a mental note of some of the exact spots I saw deer grazing - like where a limb comes out from a fence row or some other feature to help me mark the spot. When I go to that spot the next day and look at what they were eating, 70% of the time it will be new, tender NWSG tops that have grown back a little since I mowed in early September. So, what is the lesson here? Yes, deer do eat tender grass and a lot of it in the fall. I seriously doubt it is much different than the wheat I planted in the food plots in the minds of the deer. Try finding this tip anywhere else..........
TreeDaddy
5 year old buck +
Regional preferences
Pokeweed is abundant in east texas
i have yet to see evidence of browse by deer
bill