Hunting / recreation and timberland values in your location?

[swat1018]

I would say that’s probably pretty close

8.5% for 20 years. A buddy was quoted that today...

 

[RGrizzzz]

Currently under agreement to buy neighbor's place for about $4000/acre in North Central PA/Lycoming county.

 

[Triple C]

$5,000 an acre is happening a lot here. Some places are a lot more and others less. Occasionally I see strictly hunting land listed for $2,000 per acre, but it is becoming more uncommon. One big (mostly wooded) tract near me has been listed for about $3500 per acre for a long time and no one is buying it. Another nearby tract that is mostly cleared and around 50 acres with a nice barn has been listed for a long time at $6,000 per acre, but it likewise is just setting there.

A friend of mine who lives in the whiskey distillery region north of me says it is not uncommon for the whiskey folks to pay $10,000 per acre for rough land out in the country that they want for rack houses, etc....

Here is a good web site to see what people are asking for land in various places. However, it doesn't necessarily mean that anyone if paying that much.

https://www.landwatch.com/land

Steve - Had the pleasure of touring the Maker's Mark distillery a couple days ago while in the Louisville area on biz. Beautiful country on the ride from Louisville to the distillery and passed quite a few distilleries on the way.

 

[Native Hunter]

Steve - Had the pleasure of touring the Maker's Mark distillery a couple days ago while in the Louisville area on biz. Beautiful country on the ride from Louisville to the distillery and passed quite a few distilleries on the way.

Glad you got to do that TC. I used to work up there a lot before I retired. Great country.

 

[roymunson]

12,000 or so for recreational land if it's parcelled small enough.

Buddy got lucky and stole 120 acre chunk in one parcel for $8300. We were gonna flip it but he liked it so well that he's going to keep it.

My property has more than doubled since I started buying in 2017

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

12,000 or so for recreational land if it's parcelled small enough.

Buddy got lucky and stole 120 acre chunk in one parcel for $8300. We were gonna flip it but he liked it so well that he's going to keep it.

My property has more than doubled since I started buying in 2017

Dang a million for 120 acres. House? Tillable?

 

[roymunson]

Dang a million for 120 acres. House? Tillable?

Highway robbery.
You could draw lines and make it 4 parcels and turn it into 12-13,500 per acre.

almost all wooded, a single meadow down below that'll be ideal for food plotting.
South facing slopes for bedding, hardwoods up top and that meadow in the bottom.

Its in a high traffic summer recreation area with camping and river canoeing... Lot of upside property value wise. But no house, no well, no septic... strictly vacant land

 

[SD51555]

12,000 or so for recreational land if it's parcelled small enough.

Buddy got lucky and stole 120 acre chunk in one parcel for $8300. We were gonna flip it but he liked it so well that he's going to keep it.

My property has more than doubled since I started buying in 2017

That is absolutely bananas. This is where the economics of hunting land lose me. I get it if someone is sinking cash into something tangible to hedge against inflation or they are speculating on a quick flip. It's a plus to be able to hunt on your investment. But outside hedging and speculation, I don't get how these economics continue to work. The opportunity cost of owning hunting land of such a high value has got to matter at some point.

The thing that goes through my head is this. What else could I do with that money? My first thought is retire, or semi-retire. Let's just take a new 2023 risk free rate of return and call it 5.4%, because that's what you can get in short term treasuries. A million bucks would kick out $54,000 pre-tax income per year, and that also doesn't generate additional costs like property taxes and maintenance,. So let's make that $60,000.

I see that as, "I can have this land, or I can have $5,000/mo in extra income. This math gets even worse if there is a finance component of any amount. Hunting land was an easy choice when I could buy a 40-acre chunk for less than the cost of a new truck. I'd take that deal any day of the week.

Last consideration is quality of hunt. Is me chasing a big buck and providing a place to hunt for friends and family worth $5000/month? Would I be willing to physically write a check for $5,000 every month for what I'm getting out of this property? How else could I entertain myself for $5,000/month?

I use a different rate of return for opportunity cost comparisons. I set my opportunity cost at $5,000/month on my place. It is absolutely ridiculous in my opinion. However, I also assign a priceless price on having land in the country, for a place to go to recreate and exercise, a place to escape the collapse of the urban cores, a place to grow food, and a way to lock in housing costs some day. Before I die, I will see the day when only be the mega rich will own private rec land in MN. The poor and what was the middle class will never get a chance to own property like this in the future. Even if they inherit it, if they're not already wealthy, that land will have a for sale sign on the road approach before they push the dirt over our carcasses.

 

[roymunson]

That is absolutely bananas. This is where the economics of hunting land lose me. I get it if someone is sinking cash into something tangible to hedge against inflation or they are speculating on a quick flip. It's a plus to be able to hunt on your investment. But outside hedging and speculation, I don't get how these economics continue to work. The opportunity cost of owning hunting land of such a high value has got to matter at some point.

The thing that goes through my head is this. What else could I do with that money? My first thought is retire, or semi-retire. Let's just take a new 2023 risk free rate of return and call it 5.4%, because that's what you can get in short term treasuries. A million bucks would kick out $54,000 pre-tax income per year, and that also doesn't generate additional costs like property taxes and maintenance,. So let's make that $60,000.

I see that as, "I can have this land, or I can have $5,000/mo in extra income. This math gets even worse if there is a finance component of any amount. Hunting land was an easy choice when I could buy a 40-acre chunk for less than the cost of a new truck. I'd take that deal any day of the week.

Last consideration is quality of hunt. Is me chasing a big buck and providing a place to hunt for friends and family worth $5000/month? Would I be willing to physically write a check for $5,000 every month for what I'm getting out of this property? How else could I entertain myself for $5,000/month?

I use a different rate of return for opportunity cost comparisons. I set my opportunity cost at $5,000/month on my place. It is absolutely ridiculous in my opinion. However, I also assign a priceless price on having land in the country, for a place to go to recreate and exercise, a place to escape the collapse of the urban cores, a place to grow food, and a way to lock in housing costs some day. Before I die, I will see the day when only be the mega rich will own private rec land in MN. The poor and what was the middle class will never get a chance to own property like this in the future. Even if they inherit it, if they're not already wealthy, that land will have a for sale sign on the road approach before they push the dirt over our carcasses.

it is when that land will double again in 7-10 years.

We live in a weird niche where many of the Amish in our community aren't farming anymore. They're working manufacturing or owning a furniture manufacturing business. They no longer pour all their profits into their home farm. They no longer sweat and work alongside their children like they did with their dads as kids. Still wanting that, the next best thing is hunting land. Land within an hour's drive of our home is worth 3-4x that of land 3 hours away because they can get off work at 3:00, get a driver to haul them to the land, and still be home to sleep at night. And they have the disposable income becuase they're not spending it on 70k pickups, and they don't spend a bunch of cash going to travel ball tournaments with their kids on the weekend. They go burn chain saw gas and brushhog with their kids.

Like I said, it's a weird bubble, but Many of the amish have a family member who will spot them cash or are willing to have 40% of their income go to a mortgage payment. Just is what it is.

Plus, the land hasn't even flattened out here in the last 5 years. If anything, it's spiked again.

 

[FarmerDan]

That is absolutely bananas. This is where the economics of hunting land lose me. I get it if someone is sinking cash into something tangible to hedge against inflation or they are speculating on a quick flip. It's a plus to be able to hunt on your investment. But outside hedging and speculation, I don't get how these economics continue to work. The opportunity cost of owning hunting land of such a high value has got to matter at some point.

The thing that goes through my head is this. What else could I do with that money? My first thought is retire, or semi-retire. Let's just take a new 2023 risk free rate of return and call it 5.4%, because that's what you can get in short term treasuries. A million bucks would kick out $54,000 pre-tax income per year, and that also doesn't generate additional costs like property taxes and maintenance,. So let's make that $60,000.

I see that as, "I can have this land, or I can have $5,000/mo in extra income. This math gets even worse if there is a finance component of any amount. Hunting land was an easy choice when I could buy a 40-acre chunk for less than the cost of a new truck. I'd take that deal any day of the week.

Last consideration is quality of hunt. Is me chasing a big buck and providing a place to hunt for friends and family worth $5000/month? Would I be willing to physically write a check for $5,000 every month for what I'm getting out of this property? How else could I entertain myself for $5,000/month?

I use a different rate of return for opportunity cost comparisons. I set my opportunity cost at $5,000/month on my place. It is absolutely ridiculous in my opinion. However, I also assign a priceless price on having land in the country, for a place to go to recreate and exercise, a place to escape the collapse of the urban cores, a place to grow food, and a way to lock in housing costs some day. Before I die, I will see the day when only be the mega rich will own private rec land in MN. The poor and what was the middle class will never get a chance to own property like this in the future. Even if they inherit it, if they're not already wealthy, that land will have a for sale sign on the road approach before they push the dirt over our carcasses.

For whatever it's worth, I agree. The economics of land value is complicated....and it isn't. I've always doubted the proposition that land has a price significantly correlated to some personal hunting value. The simple part is location, location, location and location goes to what the best use of that land might be today and for some discounted value in the future. The other part is the amount of money available interested in such things. The complicated part is the form of the organization with money and interested in discovering (or speculating) on the future values. In my neck of the world there are three population centers where there is money and interest. The further one goes from those centers of aggregate wealth the cheaper (in a relative sense) the land becomes. Hunting value might be a small consideration here, but I think it only a bonus and for only a short time.

 

[gunther89]

The Amish have the money to buy whatever/however much land they want. They have endless amounts and if it's anything like in our area, they find the landowners who love them and kiss a$$ and eventually get the land offered to them at a huge discount.

 

[SD51555]

it is when that land will double again in 7-10 years.

We live in a weird niche where many of the Amish in our community aren't farming anymore. They're working manufacturing or owning a furniture manufacturing business. They no longer pour all their profits into their home farm. They no longer sweat and work alongside their children like they did with their dads as kids. Still wanting that, the next best thing is hunting land. Land within an hour's drive of our home is worth 3-4x that of land 3 hours away because they can get off work at 3:00, get a driver to haul them to the land, and still be home to sleep at night. And they have the disposable income becuase they're not spending it on 70k pickups, and they don't spend a bunch of cash going to travel ball tournaments with their kids on the weekend. They go burn chain saw gas and brushhog with their kids.

Like I said, it's a weird bubble, but Many of the amish have a family member who will spot them cash or are willing to have 40% of their income go to a mortgage payment. Just is what it is.

Plus, the land hasn't even flattened out here in the last 5 years. If anything, it's spiked again.

I am with you on the appreciation rates. I fully expect my place to double again in a couple years, and again the year after that, and six months after that. The amount of money that's going to be printed from here going forward is going to send land prices flying past the Antarctic passage and into the iron republic.

And I don't want it. I wish my place and my neighborhood was worth way less than what I bought it for. But it's not. It's soaring along with anything else that can't be faked by fiat money changers.

I feel like I'm talking myself in a circle here. For all the studying I've done about where this is headed, I have no idea how this ends.

 

[roymunson]

I am with you on the appreciation rates. I fully expect my place to double again in a couple years, and again the year after that, and six months after that. The amount of money that's going to be printed from here going forward is going to send land prices flying past the Antarctic passage and into the iron republic.

And I don't want it. I wish my place and my neighborhood was worth way less than what I bought it for. But it's not. It's soaring along with anything else that can't be faked by fiat money changers.

I feel like I'm talking myself in a circle here. For all the studying I've done about where this is headed, I have no idea how this ends.

I think we've felt a big bulk of the inflation, but I'm a far cry from an economist. We've been printing money and operating at a deficite for forever and it hasn't imploded yet.

Worrying that it's all gonna fall apart is just gonna stress a guy out. I think you're happier if you plant some food plots and put lead in a couple deer. Then keep moving on...

 

[Foggy47]

I think we've felt a big bulk of the inflation, but I'm a far cry from an economist. We've been printing money and operating at a deficite for forever and it hasn't imploded yet.

Worrying that it's all gonna fall apart is just gonna stress a guy out. I think you're happier if you plant some food plots and put lead in a couple deer. Then keep moving on...

In my experience.....I have seen times when land prices have spiked for a period of years......then level off while inflation continues to rise and fall.....then land values spike for a time again. I think we have recently been through one of those spike periods and prices are leveling off again.

Most everything I see tells me inflation has caused material goods (and services) to be 10 to 15 times what they were since I have some memory of prices and payed attention to such things ----say into my teens. So....that is over a sixty year period. I do remember rich Southern Minnesota farm lands selling for $300 / acre or so......and that same land has recently brought $15,000 /acre. If you would have forecast todays land prices.....some folks would have thrown you in the looney bin.

Don't say this cannot keep happening.....because that same thing was said 75 years ago.....when we enjoyed hamburgers at 19 cents apiece.

Wut? Me Worry? A.E. Neuman

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

Here’s all I know…I have maybe 25 years tops to hunt and enjoy the land the way I want. Maybe another 5-10 to just use it how an older gentleman can, Lord willing, it could all be over tomorrow. I’m not worried about every little dollar making sense in a formula or what if the electric grid collapses or world economies unit and form a super world government or whatever crap is out there. I’m worried about my and my families enjoyment right now. If the cost to play is $4k an acre….alright it’s $4k and acre. What can I afford for that and go from there. My land brings me immeasurable joy. If I took that cash and put it an interest bearing account or invested in equities or whatever I would probably be sitting high on the hog right now. As it is I drive a 6 year old truck with 140k miles….but I have my land.
I have a buddy, successful doctor. Has a spreadsheet for budgets. Knows exactly what he spends a month. Great hunter. Hardly ever goes. Lives in a neighborhood and can’t make buying land make sense. Has all the abbreviations and numerical whatever you call them funds fully funded. Tons of money at his disposal. Who has got a greater return with their money the last 5 years? He or someone who went out and bought what they could afford and got enjoyment out of it…and also the appreciation land brings.

 

[hillrunner]

Here’s all I know…I have maybe 25 years tops to hunt and enjoy the land the way I want. Maybe another 5-10 to just use it how about older gentleman can. Lord willing, it could all be over tomorrow. I’m not worried about every little dollar making sense in a formula or what if the electric grid collapses or world economies unit and form a super world government or whatever crap is out there. I’m worried about my and my families enjoyment right now. If the cost to play is $4k and acre….alright it’s $4k and acre. What can I afford for that and go from there. My land brings me immeasurable joy. If I took that cash and put it an interest bearing account or invested in equities or whatever I would probably be sitting high on the hog right now. As it is I drive a 6 year old truck with 140k miles….but I have my land.
I have a buddy, successful doctor. Has a spreadsheet for budgets. Knows exactly what he spends a month. Great hunter. Hardly ever goes. Lives in a neighborhood and can’t make buying land make sense. Has all the abbreviations and numerical whatever you call them funds fully funded. Tons of money at his disposal. Who has got a great return with their money the last 5 years? He or someone who went out and bought what they could afford and got enjoyment out of it…and also the appreciation land brings.

This, I really don't care if it makes financial sense as long as I can afford it and still have time to enjoy it.
My land investments have been incredible but I wish they hadn't, I'd like to buy more, and I only sell into a 1031.
I make my money elsewhere, for me, land is for enjoyment.

 

[Brian662]

I plan to and absolutely will reduce my savings into my 401k if it affords me the opportunity to buy more land. Won't even blink to do it. In fact I've got another 40 acre Purchase Agreement signed and it's going to be close on whether I have to or decide to cut back on retirement savings to afford it. Absolutely doesn't bother me a bit. I love land, I have zero feelings for my 401k.

 

[Foggy47]

Here’s all I know…I have maybe 25 years tops to hunt and enjoy the land the way I want. Maybe another 5-10 to just use it how about older gentleman can, Lord willing, it could all be over tomorrow. I’m not worried about every little dollar making sense in a formula or what if the electric grid collapses or world economies unit and form a super world government or whatever crap is out there. I’m worried about my and my families enjoyment right now. If the cost to play is $4k and acre….alright it’s $4k and acre. What can I afford for that and go from there. My land brings me immeasurable joy. If I took that cash and put it an interest bearing account or invested in equities or whatever I would probably be sitting high on the hog right now. As it is I drive a 6 year old truck with 140k miles….but I have my land.
I have a buddy, successful doctor. Has a spreadsheet for budgets. Knows exactly what he spends a month. Great hunter. Hardly ever goes. Lives in a neighborhood and can’t make buying land make sense. Has all the abbreviations and numerical whatever you call them funds fully funded. Tons of money at his disposal. Who has got a greater return with their money the last 5 years? He or someone who went out and bought what they could afford and got enjoyment out of it…and also the appreciation land brings.

I think most folks that buy are using this logic. Does not pencil-out today....but inflation is a great equalizer. I know that farmers are using this logic and averaging their land costs. For the most part....It does not make sense for them today......but they are looking at future generations. I take some pride in offering my family land and stocks in which they will attain the tax-free, stepped up basis benefits.....when I am gone. Hope that's not any time soon. Grin.

 

[Brian662]

I've been maxing my 401k out for 20 years and watching the numbers go up and down doesn't provide me an ounce of joy, even when it hits new landmarks, it is short lived emotion compared to walking, working, or hunting my land INVESTMENTS.

 

[TenPoint]

I plan to and absolutely will reduce my savings into my 401k if it affords me the opportunity to buy more land. Won't even blink to do it. In fact I've got another 40 acre Purchase Agreement signed and it's going to be close on whether I have to or decide to cut back on retirement savings to afford it. Absolutely doesn't bother me a bit. I love land, I have zero feelings for my 401k.

YOLO! Tomorrow isn't promised.