hunting in "nasty" weather

[Steve Bartylla]

I think deer have memories and cognitive thought.
.... Simply watch deer react to opening morning of the gun season.

This is something I've pondered hard over the last few months. I don't pretend that it's not possible I'm wrong, but here's a brief summation of my beliefs.

Every study I've read says deer simply do not have the ability to use rational thought. They read and react. At the same time, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that you can literally train deer through positive and negative reinforcement. I could bore you all with a laundry list of examples. Lastly, I've come to believe that deer have extremely short memories of the more mundane things that occur in their lives, but incidents they view as more traumatic stick with them longer.

A perfect example occurred this fall. I'd been ninjaing into stands with deer out more then ever before, but a doe and fawn were 20 yards in front of the tree I was going to hunt and there was just no way. So, I decided to walk out into the plot and nudge them off, instead of spook them half way up the tree. I got 15 yards from her when she lifted her head (blind corner and windy day). 1.5 and 2.5 year old bucks were feeding 30 yards away from the doe and fawn. They kept looking from me to the doe and back, taking their cue from the older doe. She just flicked her tail and kept staring at me. I even went so far as to, in a calm voice, tell her to get out of here already so I could hunt. She wouldn't spook. So, I climbed up into the stand and hunted, with the 4 of them watching me climb the tree and going back to feeding for another 20 mins, before eventually leaving.

About 2 hours later, the doe and fawn returned (both easily recognizable). I was sloppy in filming them, as they both had watched me climb into the tree, glanced up at me numerous times and had dismissed me as harmless. She spotted me and did a head bop and foot stomp for 10ish mins. She'd obviously forgotten completely about watching me climb the tree, setup all my camera gear and slip into hunting mode, just 2 hours before. At the same time, I'm sure all of us have had does bust us from stands, only to be staring a hole into us every other time they come out from there on., for the rest of season and occasionally even following seasons. The only thing I can conclude is that if the experience seems traumatic, they seem to be able to hang on to that "memory." If it's more mundane, no big deal, it is gone from their memories within hours.

By the way, that occurred in the center of a large chunk that I have tightly controlled pressure on for 5 years running now. Way more of the deer on that ground than not would have bolted (though I have had a few experiences very similar to that there, they are more the exception than the rule). I just trained one of them (the old doe) to not see hunters as a threat, as she'd most certainly not had a single negative encounter with humans in at least the previous 5 years. She didn't realize she was supposed to be scared, but couldn't figure out what the blob was doing up in the tree a couple hours later.

 

[browndog]

...the older I get the less of these bad days I seem to hunt.

Same here.

 

[bwoods11]

Steve--I can think of many examples of deer, in particular bucks that had to think or remember something to do what they did.

Too many to list...just one example. Pheasant hunting in October, kick a deer up and he trots off semi-scared. Try hunting in November. Kick up a buck and he will run hard and low so his body is difficult to shoot...if it was a shotgun group pushing the deer. How would he know that? Experience and memory.

 

[Bill]

I'll buy into memory on some level. And Steve makes a good point on traumatic events lasting longer.

But if a deer could reason, it wouldn't take long before they were all nocturnal, all the time. Using your example, if a deer had complex thought enough to tell the difference between guys jumping him in Oct vs Nov. then they should be able to reason we only shoot them during the daylight.

If they could reason that we'd never see them in daylight anywhere ever.

When I shot my buck this year the spike that was standing there stayed standing there. I forgot about him until I was 15 yards from him and the buck I had just dumped. He just looked at me kinda puzzled. If deer have cognitive thought, that one rides the short bus.

 

[bwoods11]

Small buck hasn't learned yet. Some deer are nocturnal, but they cannot help themselves during the rut. Sex driven, or hunger!! I've seen it too many times. Does a dog have memory and possibly cognitive thought, mine does!

 

[Bill]

I've trained a couple really good retrievers and you bet they have memory. Repetition, into memory and positive re-inforcement is why they are trainable. But again, I don't think they have cognitive thought.

If they did, I doubt they would jump into icy water balls down to retrieve a duck that their going to give away.

Just sayin :D

 

[Turkey Creek]

I would say all animals are trainable to some extent. Some just learn quicker than others. I would go along with the traumatic memory idea, but I also think that deer learn certain things if repeatedly exposed to the same scenario. I think deer are even trainable in a beneficial way to a hunting scenario if the repetition is consistent and non threatening to the deer. Areas with high pressure (lots of hunters or a hunter that repeats the same pattern) can condition deer to exhibit certain non desireable behaviors (nocturnal, avoiding stand locations, etc..)

 

[Steve Bartylla]

Steve--I can think of many examples of deer, in particular bucks that had to think or remember something to do what they did.

Too many to list...just one example. Pheasant hunting in October, kick a deer up and he trots off semi-scared. Try hunting in November. Kick up a buck and he will run hard and low so his body is difficult to shoot...if it was a shotgun group pushing the deer. How would he know that? Experience and memory.

I'm sure not arrogant enough that I don't believe you could be right and I'm wrong, but I just don't agree that deer are capable of analyzing situations/analytical thought/reasoning. When deer run low, they are merely afraid and trying to get out as fast as they possibly can. I personally don't believe they are trying to become harder targets to shoot. They merely run faster if they are plaining than when bouncing. Do they sense they are in greater danger when actually being hunted than not? I could buy that, but don't believe they "know" it's hunting season and therefore have to run low to avoid bullets. It's just like deer "ducking to avoid the arrow." Deer aren't trying to "duck." Their natural method of running is simply to drop, creating the spring effect when they explode into flight. It's my belief that we try to give deer, particularly mature bucks, way too much credit the majority of the time. It helps build them into more mythical creatures, gives us built in excuses for why they "outsmart" us and makes it seem even more special when we are able to win.

I really believe it's repeated positive vrs negative reinforcement/training and some degree of increased memory for traumatic events. Add instincts in, reflex reactions (i.e. a deer's sense of smell is are reported to be hardwired directly to the reflex portion of the brain, so that they react instantaneously when strong odors hit their nose), toss achieving comfort and biological needs/urges on top of all that and I really think that pretty much covers it. Again, just stating my beliefs, not saying you're wrong.

 

[j-bird]

If deer had cognitive thought - they would cross the damn road at the signs!!!!:D

 

[Natty Bumppo]

If deer have cognitive thought then why don't they do Bo Duke hood slides across cars when they are about to get hit? They don't. They just get hit. No waiting for the traffic to stop. No waiting for a quiet moment. No Bo Duke hood slides. They just get hit.

I'm being a little tongue and cheek, of course. But no, I don't believ for a minute that deer make themselves smaller targets during deer season.

 

[bwoods11]

Well how do you explain it then?? Why would a big buck for instance crawl on his knees when being pushed? Wouldn't he just run like he always does?

Maybe he's not trying to create a smaller target, but he's definitely trying to avoid being seen period for fear for his life. Certainly he knows he's cornered or trapped and somehow figured out how to survive.

I suppose that could be pure instinct?

 

[bwoods11]

If deer have cognitive thought then why don't they do Bo Duke hood slides across cars when they are about to get hit? They don't. They just get hit. No waiting for the traffic to stop. No waiting for a quiet moment. No Bo Duke hood slides. They just get hit.

I'm being a little tongue and cheek, of course. But no, I don't believ for a minute that deer make themselves smaller targets during deer season.

Why do humans do meth? Knowing full well it will kill them? Tongue in cheek as well.

 

[Bill]

Well how do you explain it then?? Why would a big buck for instance crawl on his knees when being pushed? Wouldn't he just run like he always does?

Maybe he's not trying to create a smaller target, but he's definitely trying to avoid being seen period for fear for his life. Certainly he knows he's cornered or trapped and somehow figured out how to survive.

I suppose that could be pure instinct?

Like Steve, I could be wrong and you could be right. But I tend to agree it's a combination of things, instinct, bad memories etc. the deer that runs low to the ground in November but not October may have run into more scary human encounters between Oct and Nov and now he's on high alert.

As for people doing meth I think it is because they do have cognitive thought. They just thought they wouldn't get hooked. They were wrong, but they thought about it at one point.

 

[Bill]

If deer have cognitive thought then why don't they do Bo Duke hood slides across cars when they are about to get hit? They don't. They just get hit. No waiting for the traffic to stop. No waiting for a quiet moment. No Bo Duke hood slides. They just get hit.

Bo Duke slide http://habitat-talk.com/index.php?threads/ouch.4831/
:D couldn't make it up if you had to.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

I agree with J-bird - post #18. I killed a couple really nice bucks over the years when the weather had been really crappy. But as soon as the snow/sleet/wind stopped, the deer were moving. No driving necessary - they were on their feet and walking around looking for food, or in one case - following a line of does as they browsed along. They're on my wall now.

 

[Natty Bumppo]

Bo Duke slide http://habitat-talk.com/index.php?threads/ouch.4831/
:D couldn't make it up if you had to.

Holy crap. That was insane! A Bo Duke hood slide!

 

[Natty Bumppo]

Well how do you explain it then?? Why would a big buck for instance crawl on his knees when being pushed? Wouldn't he just run like he always does?

Maybe he's not trying to create a smaller target, but he's definitely trying to avoid being seen period for fear for his life. Certainly he knows he's cornered or trapped and somehow figured out how to survive.

I suppose that could be pure instinct?

Yeah, I think we might have to agree to disagree. Deer crawling on their knees to avoid getting shot? I don't believe it happens.

 

[bwoods11]

It has actually...., no reason to go on a public site and lie about it. I've heard it many times, if you don't pheasant hunt or walk grassy areas, CRP and cattails you would never have seen or heard of it. You probably don't do that in Massachusetts. In MN and Dakotas, I can assure you it has happened many times. My former basketball coach was the first one to tell me it happened, and I have heard of it many times since, including last year with a large group of shotgun hunters west of the town I lived in, unless the group of guys (like 8 of them) all made up the same story.

When an mature buck feels completely surrounded it will happen.

I've never seen it personally, but I have seen the bucks crash low to the ground and escape through thickets, cattails, willows, and river bottom brush. You can barely see them as they keep low and head out of dodge. I've seen that since the mid-70's as we do a lot of pheasant hunting.

 

[bwoods11]

Google "deer crawling on knees" and you will find other hunters witnessing this rare (bigfoot type scenario) of deer crawling. There is actually a youtube video showing it as well.

 

[bwoods11]

Sorry Kabic for the hijack!!