Herd management?

Catscratch

5 year old buck +
Any of you guys think you've made a difference by selectively harvesting bucks? I know there are tons of philosophies and angles to doing it, but has anyone executed a plan that you think had positive results?

Such as harvesting mature 8 pointers to let 10's have the resources?
 
Wouldn't do me any good on my 115 acres and then there's thousands of acres of wildlife management right across the road open to public hunting. Minnesota needs antler point restrictions in my opinion.
 
Any of you guys think you've made a difference by selectively harvesting bucks? I know there are tons of philosophies and angles to doing it, but has anyone executed a plan that you think had positive results?

Such as harvesting mature 8 pointers to let 10's have the resources?

This is an interesting question and think j touched on the important point. Scale. It’s all about how much land do you control. I don’t believe I can make a noticeable difference on what I have without a streamlined plan from the whole neighborhood. I do think there’s some merit in taking older “bully” bucks but I’m not under the impression that it will alter the course of genetic antler characteristics. I did make an observation to a buddy the other day. I’m noticing several bigger, mature 8’s on my properties. I’m theorizing that my neighbors are taking all the good 2-3 year old 10’s and leaving the 8’s. But that is at a large neighborhood scale and not an individual property one. I honestly don’t even think taking does off my land will have a big difference other than maybe taking some immediate mouths off the landscape. My neighbors aren’t taking enough does so I will easily replace whatever I take.
 
I haven't, but if I was in a situation where it made sense (lots of bucks making it to maturity with herd size approaching carrying capacity), I would. I haven't read this book, but it probably is what I would if I could go that route.

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Even though I don't really think I can change or control the local herd I still passed on a pretty decent buck last Saturday. I'm just looking to get a fully mature buck the next time I pull the trigger.
 
I buy that it is possible to have an impact in certain situations but unless i win the lottery its doubtful i'll ever have the time or scale to make a difference. Even if a guy has the scale to make a difference - I'd think it would take a lot of time killing to actually execute any change.

Don higgins talks about targeting the lower potential mature bucks to eliminate competition and keep the higher potential mature bucks using your area more. I could maybe see folks being able to impact what is on their land a bit by doing that but i'm not sure i'd consider it herd management.
 
I think nature hates a vacuum. So along this line of thinking if you remove a 3.5yr old buck what will replace it? Will another older buck move in, or will a yearling move in? In the bass pond I believe that the best cover will house the biggest bass. Once removed the 2nd biggest bass will take over that spot. Will a matching aged deer take over that cover if he's removed?
 
I buy that it is possible to have an impact in certain situations but unless i win the lottery its doubtful i'll ever have the time or scale to make a difference. Even if a guy has the scale to make a difference - I'd think it would take a lot of time killing to actually execute any change.

Don higgins talks about targeting the lower potential mature bucks to eliminate competition and keep the higher potential mature bucks using your area more. I could maybe see folks being able to impact what is on their land a bit by doing that but i'm not sure i'd consider it herd management.
Honestly about the only way to do that is illegal. My state is one buck so that leaves me killing one mature buck to make a dent (which it likely wont) or it involves bringing a bunch of people. That exponentially increases the pressure which makes it unlikely to kill those old warriors. So it would really take a single person killing over their limit in my opinion.
 
If you are nearing carrying capacity and bucks are frequently reaching maturity in your area, in theory it would make sense to take out some of the mature bucks with lesser antlers. The herd in the neighborhood should level itself over time and a new buck may move in that has larger antlers than the one you removed.

It wouldn't really be an attempt to influence genetics, but there is only so much food and cover to go around so that should be directed at the biggest bucks if that is your goal.
 
Honestly about the only way to do that is illegal. My state is one buck so that leaves me killing one mature buck to make a dent (which it likely wont) or it involves bringing a bunch of people. That exponentially increases the pressure which makes it unlikely to kill those old warriors. So it would really take a single person killing over their limit in my opinion.

Yes, it likely takes other hunters and thus more time to manage them.

Referencing Higgins again - he talks about this on his farm having multiple target bucks that are more cull bucks to make room for the high potential ones and lets other people shoot those specific bucks to serve those ends. How many people have a network of others they trust to come out and do that? Even for people who have folks they'd trust to do it without mucking things up - usually those types of people have enough going on with their own thing that they aren't coming out to look for your cull bucks.
 
My farms are too small to ever be able to do anything like that. I do try and manage the land to give everything the best opportunity at survival.
With all the neighbors hunting and road hunters it’s just not possible to groom for big bucks, even though we do get some nice ones coming through.
I do pass on does with fawns, but the kids can shoot anything that pokes its head out

What I do is just shoot whatever buck makes me happy and I don’t judge what anyone else wants to shoot.
 
I think nature hates a vacuum. So along this line of thinking if you remove a 3.5yr old buck what will replace it? Will another older buck move in, or will a yearling move in? In the bass pond I believe that the best cover will house the biggest bass. Once removed the 2nd biggest bass will take over that spot. Will a matching aged deer take over that cover if he's removed?

From the studies i've heard quoted - it seems like a lot of deer get their range and then keep it. So if the most dominant buck spends more of his time in a specific portion of his range and is killed, I could see the next most dominant buck who's range overlaps in that area spending more time in that specific portion but at the same time keeping the same general range? Just thinking out loud.
 
I have 350 acres with 15 adjacent landowners. Some have over 1000 acres - a lot have 15 acres. The larger landowners are much more selective than the smaller landowners. But, there are usually a number of mature bucks that make it through every year. We take two or three bucks a year - usually one really nice one (for here) and a couple of lesser quality, older bucks. I dont think we are affecting the herd by selective harvest. However, I feed a lot of protein in the summer. I had one bachelor herd of 12 bucks and another of six bucks. We now kill a buck every other year or so that weighs 200 lbs or more (live weight) - and the previous 20 years have never killed one over 182. It would stand to reason that if you are adding 25 lbs of weight with a protein-based food source, you might also be adding a few inches to a select few bucks.

I have a neighbor with 1200 acres - one mile wide and two miles long. He lets three of us bow hunt it. We take one or two bucks a year off it. There is always a buck or two knocking on 150" It never gets any better. If a buck is standing the farthest he can get from the property line on that place, he only has to walk 850 yards to be on someone else's property. We have six weeks of gun season, baiting, deer dogs, two buck limit, rut hunting - about the only thing not legal is thermal scopes. We still produce quite a few 5 yr old bucks - but the average 5 yr old buck here scores 115" You have to produce a lot of mature bucks for one to approach 150. Fortunately, we are overwhelmed with cover - that is our saving grace. I just dont think you can affect antlers on uncontrolled ground by selective buck harvest - protein, maybe.
 
My opinion, Don’t shoot “shooters” and allow the type of genetics you desire to spread. I have no idea of the possibility of doing this on smaller tracts where all of your neighbors will shoot any 3-4 year old buck that runs by.

“Culling” should not take place before 5 years IMO you just never know what one more year will do. And on the upside you always have a mature buck to harvest while you wait for your up and comers to become trophies.

Will any of it work on small tracts? Most likely not. Until you can sway your neighbors to have some trigger control it’s a waste of time to even ponder.


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Trophy hunting ruins a lot of things, the herd is just one.
 
Trophy hunting ruins a lot of things, the herd is just one.
Yeah nothing says quality hunting like Pennsylvania of the 1990’s where 90% of buck harvest was yearlings. Would you rather hunt the Henry mtns for muleys or some general tag.
 
Yeah nothing says quality hunting like Pennsylvania of the 1990’s where 90% of buck harvest was yearlings. Would you rather hunt the Henry mtns for muleys or some general tag.
The old timers still whine about wanting to be able to shoot spikes because they're old....
 
Yeah nothing says quality hunting like Pennsylvania of the 1990’s where 90% of buck harvest was yearlings. Would you rather hunt the Henry mtns for muleys or some general tag.
Yeah now we’re killing 80-90% of the 2yr olds. We’ve always had quality deer in areas but most areas have terrible habitat from years of over population.
 
I think dispersion would limit the effects of culling or whatever other form of manipulation we may try. Buck fawns disperse many many miles each year. If you made an attempt to manipulate the genetics by selective harvest you may be helping the neighbors those many miles away? Maybe hope they are doing the same and their fawns make it your way. I don’t see how it would have any meaningful effect in an open system.


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I reckon if you own areas where mature bucks bed and spend the winter, letting them grow……..

I wager they will get bigger. And you will see it.

Passing on a deer that doesn’t live on your land is like catching and releasing a fish in a public waterway.

You might catch it again, you might not.
 
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