Glyphosate (dangerous??)

[MRBB]

Thanks.



Not taking it as bashing at all. I understand what you're saying. By your same logic, I suppose since I can't totally avoid second hand smoke I should go out and start smoking 2 packs a day?

LOL
that would be rather extreme, as I would NOT suggest anyone to start smoking at all
as that is not really the same thing as I was saying

as MY point of view is again, IF your spending MONEY time and energy to make a food plot, why would you skip a step that ensures you a better result, be it round up or other things!

as again in MY area, without use of round up and other chemicals, , plots would be over run with weeds in short order making me spend more money to re do them over and over again, rather than have yrs of plots being productive with use of round up and like chemicals
and I would NOT have the plots I want to help make my lands more inviting to wildlife!

so IMO thats a big difference , that starting up smoking two padks a day due to some folks still smoke today!
second hand smoke is honestly rather easy to avoid these days, but I also don;'t really know if lung cancer is down any due to so many stopping smoking or not allowed to in so many places either!
was never a smoker either, just see that as wasting money I can use else where LOL wasn't due t fears of issue's HAHA!
but I get your point as well
as I think you do mine!

 

[Knehrke]

I am a PhD research scientist and Professor of Medicine at a major US college medical center and I study the effect of environmental stresses on bioenergetic function in model organisms. My management approach includes gly, but that doesn't mean I don't acknowledge its potential for harm. IMHO, almost every bioactive substance when introduced to a new environment has consequences, whether it be invasive species or chemicals. Unfortunately, we haven't developed the context yet to fully understand the mechanisms underlying these consequences. I've spoken here on this before, but if you haven't already, check out the field of epigenetics. It's scary stuff. As a card-carrying gene jockey, let me tell you that it's not the stuff we understand that will get us. I try not to think about it too much.

Tap, I wish you the best in figuring out your health concerns. It's tough when something's not off-the-shelf.

 

[Tap]

I am a PhD research scientist and Professor of Medicine at a major US college medical center and I study the effect of environmental stresses on bioenergetic function in model organisms. My management approach includes gly, but that doesn't mean I don't acknowledge its potential for harm. IMHO, almost every bioactive substance when introduced to a new environment has consequences, whether it be invasive species or chemicals. Unfortunately, we haven't developed the context yet to fully understand the mechanisms underlying these consequences. I've spoken here on this before, but if you haven't already, check out the field of epigenetics. It's scary stuff. As a card-carrying gene jockey, let me tell you that it's not the stuff we understand that will get us. I try not to think about it too much.

Tap, I wish you the best in figuring out your health concerns. It's tough when something's not off-the-shelf.

Thanks Knehrke and thanks to everyone that's sent their wishes.
I spent another night in the ER yesterday...104° fever. I was ~105° last Monday.
This sucks.

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[Bowsnbucks]

Tap - Once again I wish you the best in diagnosis & treatment for your problems. Health problems of any sort - from any source - are painful physically AND mentally stressful. Hard on families. Hang in there pal.

Natty - Thank-you for your service and all you've endured in the Middle East. I use gly at camp occasionally, and I wear PPE, including vinyl rain suit for drift. I also don't set the sprayer to "mist", but rather small droplets to avoid fog drift. I don't feel personally in jeopardy for my type of use, but I wouldn't want to use it (gly) frequently.

Knehrke - Even with your PhD and expertise in those fields, I firmly believe there's a large segment of our population that doubts anything folks like you say. They view bona fide experts as "fear-mongers" at best, and outright liars at worst. Canary-in-a-coal-mine means nothing to some folks ………… UNTIL - some environmental catastrophe hits THEIR family. Then it becomes "How can this happen ??" "Where's the EPA on this ??" "How can this stuff show up in our drinking water??" "Shouldn't somebody be monitoring for things like this ??" The answer is YES - there should be - if budgets aren't slashed & staffs cut just to claim " We're getting rid of all these un-necessary regulations."

We have a former military base right down the road from where I live that's been found to be the source of ground water contamination for local well water users and municipal supplies. The chemicals used to practice fire suppression in case of plane crash or other disasters are the toxic contaminants. They were sprayed on that base for years. Now that same chemical has been found in all the local water supplies. BUT THE EPA HAS BEEN TELLING LIES ABOUT IT'S SOURCE AND IT'S DANGER. AND THE EPA CONTINUES TO DO SO. Residents have been advised to use bottled water instead of tap water. But they still have to pay their water bills, in addition to more $$$ for bottled water. Those folks are mighty pissed that the budget of the EPA has been slashed so many times and staff has been eliminated. Try telling them and their families that "we need less regulations". Health problems have cropped up for them, and now they wonder what else will crop up after drinking that contaminated water for years. NOT ALL REGULATIONS ARE BAD AND WASTEFUL. HEALTH AND SAFETY ARE NECESSITIES ………… NOT LUXURIES.

 

[sandbur]

I am a PhD research scientist and Professor of Medicine at a major US college medical center and I study the effect of environmental stresses on bioenergetic function in model organisms. My management approach includes gly, but that doesn't mean I don't acknowledge its potential for harm. IMHO, almost every bioactive substance when introduced to a new environment has consequences, whether it be invasive species or chemicals. Unfortunately, we haven't developed the context yet to fully understand the mechanisms underlying these consequences. I've spoken here on this before, but if you haven't already, check out the field of epigenetics. It's scary stuff. As a card-carrying gene jockey, let me tell you that it's not the stuff we understand that will get us. I try not to think about it too much.

Tap, I wish you the best in figuring out your health concerns. It's tough when something's not off-the-shelf.

Thanks Knehrke and thanks to everyone that's sent their wishes.
I spent another night in the ER yesterday...104° fever. I was ~105° last Monday.
This sucks.

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Tap, I hope you are feeling better. I know you mentioned tick diseases and test were negative. I would surely question the doctors on this. My cuz was in the VA and they fiddled around because he had a fever . Not lunes.... I said just go on doxycycline. They finally decided it was a different tick disease after a long wait and went on doxy. He got better.

Some of those tick diseases are very Regional or new in areas. I don’t feel docs are current on it. Local practitioners or veterinarians probably have a better feel as to what is out there on a county by county basis.


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[sandbur]

Now my take on chemicals. Yup they are bad for you.
Drink coffee? Do we know if the beans were treated with chemicals? Herbicides?

Decaf? What chemicals are used to remove the caffeine?

I am sitting here drinking a cocktail of chemicals. Diet Coke.

Chlorinated water with fluoride in your coffee or in your ice cubes in pop?

Vapors from asphalt as you wait in line at highway construction sites?

We think organics are safe. The plant deadly night shade is organic. I once read too much pepper can lead to cancer. I am sure there are other natural foods that cause cancer, or even just trigger cancer in people with the right genes.

My Doc wanted me to eat a specific plant seed for my health. I won’t name it. But it can increase the rate of prostate cancer.

I am not sure what I am trying to say. We are exposed to chemicals every day, organic and man made, we have no idea what they do in combination with other chemicals , or with the specific genes in our body.

All we can do is to try and use good judgement. What happens, happens.

I lost both parents to cancer. I have done lots of thinking about causes and it is not clear other than my Mom smoked for years in the car and in the house. Dad had prostate cancer and Mom ovarian cancer.


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[TreeDaddy]

So I need to give up my nightcap of gly and coke?

bill

 

[DrDirtNap]

Now my take on chemicals. Yup they are bad for you.
Drink coffee? Do we know if the beans were treated with chemicals? Herbicides?

Decaf? What chemicals are used to remove the caffeine?

I am sitting here drinking a cocktail of chemicals. Diet Coke.

Chlorinated water with fluoride in your coffee or in your ice cubes in pop?

Vapors from asphalt as you wait in line at highway construction sites?

We think organics are safe. The plant deadly night shade is organic. I once read too much pepper can lead to cancer. I am sure there are other natural foods that cause cancer, or even just trigger cancer in people with the right genes.

My Doc wanted me to eat a specific plant seed for my health. I won’t name it. But it can increase the rate of prostate cancer.

I am not sure what I am trying to say. We are exposed to chemicals every day, organic and man made, we have no idea what they do in combination with other chemicals , or with the specific genes in our body.

All we can do is to try and use good judgement. What happens, happens.

I lost both parents to cancer. I have done lots of thinking about causes and it is not clear other than my Mom smoked for years in the car and in the house. Dad had prostate cancer and Mom ovarian cancer.


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Well said, Sandbur

 

[sandbur]

So I need to give up my nightcap of gly and coke?

bill

I would suggest switching to Lake Superior Oatmeal Stout! My current favorite. Limit is one beer per week.


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[Knehrke]

Yep, you can't avoid chemicals anymore. Stuff that's synthesized for some purpose without thought to consequences. Like I said, I try not to think too much about it.

Just don't try to take away my coffee! It's bad enough that I developed a hops allergy over the past two years. Unreal. Luckily I'm still good with single malt

 

[Tap]

Tap, I hope you are feeling better. I know you mentioned tick diseases and test were negative. I would surely question the doctors on this. My cuz was in the VA and they fiddled around because he had a fever . Not lunes.... I said just go on doxycycline. They finally decided it was a different tick disease after a long wait and went on doxy. He got better.

Some of those tick diseases are very Regional or new in areas. I don’t feel docs are current on it. Local practitioners or veterinarians probably have a better feel as to what is out there on a county by county basis.


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Thanks sandbur.
I've had 2 different types of Lyme tests and another test for a different tick disease which I can't remember what disease it looked for. Everything was neg, but I am aware that tick diseases can be difficult to diagnose.
The latest thing they are looking for is a hidden fungal infection. They tested me for fungal issues and one test came back border-line positive so they put me on a med for that.
A couple thoughts on fungal possibility...The nurse that went nuts over my use of gly said that spraying gly releases plant fungus, and breathing the fungus is one of the dangers. I have no idea if she is right or wrong about that.

I also know that I was cleaning out my rock gardens of wet and rotting leaves back in late May. I used the blower with no mask, so I very well may have been stirring up molds and fungus...maybe that is when I got this (as yet to be determined) fungus infection.

The bigger question is why is my white blood count so out of wack?? Last Monday, my neutrophil level was down to 300 (1,000 is considered low). Neutrophils fight infection and low N is most likely the cause of my regular fevers that have hit ~105.
The latest suspicion is the low N and screwy white count is a side effect of some Rheumatoid Arthritis meds. I've stopped the RA meds to see if my N improves.

So, going back to my original question...Is Gly dangerous?
I'm very skeptical that it is. For people with no other health issues, and when used with care and reasonable PPE, the rate that most plotters use gly, IMO, the use of gly isn't dangerous.
I do know that I've been pretty sloppy with PPE in the past and going forward I will be more careful.
In the meanwhile, I really can't wait for some concrete answers to what my issue is. This crap is getting old.

 

[Knehrke]

Tap, I'm not sure there's a good answer to your Gly question. You know the old saying about how anything can be dangerous at some level - water, drowning...trite, but true. I doubt that Gly is your culprit though, at least not the primary cause. As you say, "at the rate most plotters use gly".

Good luck with getting a good diagnosis. Sometimes it ends up being a diagnosis of exclusion, which means that there's lots of stuff to be ruled out first. It takes time and it sucks.

 

[Bill]

Darn Tap, sounds kinda scarey to me. Hopefully they come up with something soon.
If not I hope you just start to get better on your own.

I still need to find time to do some more MAM recon for you.

 

[Tap]

Darn Tap, sounds kinda scarey to me. Hopefully they come up with something soon.
If not I hope you just start to get better on your own.

I still need to find time to do some more MAM recon for you.

Thanks Bill. I went 5 straight days without a fever...got a mild one last night.

And the MAM is still spreading. Anything that you can do to help in that department would be greatly appreciated.

 

[kl9]

Question - when you spray gly it is absorbed by plants and makes its way to the root system. What about the gly that hits just black dirt. How long does the chemical stay somewhat active?

Ex: if you spray on Monday and disc up the dirt the next Monday, are you kicking up a bunch of the chemical when dust is flying?


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[Tap]

Question - when you spray gly it is absorbed by plants and makes its way to the root system. What about the gly that hits just black dirt. How long does the chemical stay somewhat active?

Ex: if you spray on Monday and disc up the dirt the next Monday, are you kicking up a bunch of the chemical when dust is flying?


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I don't know. A lot probably depends on soil type, OM, and rain fall.




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[yoderjac]

Question - when you spray gly it is absorbed by plants and makes its way to the root system. What about the gly that hits just black dirt. How long does the chemical stay somewhat active?

Ex: if you spray on Monday and disc up the dirt the next Monday, are you kicking up a bunch of the chemical when dust is flying?


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Gly does not have a residual soil effect like some herbicides. For example if you read the 24D Ester label, is tells you how long you need to wait before planting certain crops. This is because they operate through different mechanisms than gly and have a residual soil effect. Gly will bind with minerals in the soil and become ineffective. For example, we want to use clean water when mixing gly. If the water is hard (mineral content), we add AMS to the water before we add Gly. Why? Because the mineral will bond with gly making it ineffective. Any gly that bonds with something else can't bond with the receptor site on a plant.

Does gly have an effect on microorganisms on the soil? Perhaps. I don't know how much research has been done in this area. Clearly the impact, if any, does not have a dramatic effect given the amount of gly that has been used over the years and the increased productivity of soils that are sprayed and no-tilled rather than plowed.

As for disking after gly, it makes little sense to me. One is simply bringing more weed seeds into the germination layer. For more info on tillage impacts google "Ray the soil Guy". Minimizing tillage improves the health of your soils. Tillage also disrupts weeds, so if you are going to till, I would do it first and then allow two weeks for weed seed to germinate. At that point, I'd plant and then spry gly. An exception to this might be large seeded RR crops that need to be planted deeper like soybeans and corn, but most of the seeds we plant for deer require little if any depth. Many can be surface broadcast and cultipacked. Either way, none of the dirt you spray around when you till will impact plants because of gly.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Bowsnbucks]

Hey Tap - I was just checking back in on this thread & something you said got me to thinking - about 2 things actually. (1) You said you were cleaning out rock gardens in May with a leaf blower & wondered if you stirred up some fungus / breathed it in. Every time I got seedlings from the county conservation district, they include a pamphlet stating the possibility / danger of a soil & mulch-born fungus that can cause a variety of symptoms. They advise to ask your doctor if you become ill. I just can't remember the name of the fungus or the condition it causes. It might be a ?? to ask your Dr.

(2) My sister has R.A. and has for years. Her Dr. put her on a new med for the R.A. and she started to get a bunch of weird symptoms with fevers, etc. He took her back off that med and the problems went away. Maybe check into that with your Dr.

At any rate - I hope you get answers soon and get on the mend, pal. Take it easy & keep us posted.

 

[JFK52]

I have an older friend who tested negative for Lyme disease three or more times over a period of two years. It then turned out that he did have Lyme disease. He was then treated for it and made a good recovery. When I have a tick on me for more than 24 hours which has happened a couple of times after working at my farm, my Doctor gives me a Rx of dicocline (sp?) as a preventative measure.
TAP, sorry for all your problems and I hope you find a solution soon.

 

[Tap]

Okay guys, here's the latest on my issues. I will rehash a few things to jog memories of how I got here.
I've been on an RA med since 2012. Turns out that one of the side effects is it may lower neutrophils (the part of white blood cells that fight infection).
My white count is also low, so my primary care doc sent me to a blood specialist. He saw something that indicated possible leukemia so he sent me to an oncologist. A bone marrow biopsy was neg. Around that time was when I was cleaning old leaves from the rock gardens and it was also the time when fevers started...4 days a week and as high as 105°.
Bear with me...glyphosate eventually comes into the conversation.
The oncologist then thought the regular fevers were indicative of lymphoma so I had two CT scans...both neg. So he sent me to an infectious disease doc.
One of the 1st things that the nurse asked after hearing I own acreage was " Do you use Roundup?". Yes I do.
She contends that when Roundup is sprayed on plants, it releases harmful fungai that we breathe in. I have no idea if she is correct, but they did multiple blood tests...ONE came back borderline for an internal fungus infection. Fungal infections can be difficult to kill and it takes time and patience. They put me on an anti fungal pill about 5 weeks ago and my condition has slowly improved. Do I have a fungal infection? They don't know for sure. If I DO have an infection, was it caused by a combination of low neutrophils, spraying Roundup, and blowing leaves? There's no way to know that.
If I do have the infection, the RA med most likely caused my low neutrophils which led to being susceptible to the infection.
So getting back to my original post...is gly dangerous? The nurse seems to think its one of the most dangerous consumer products on the market. I don't exactly buy into that, but I will say that I'm not taking chances with the stuff. Yeah, I still use it but I now ALWAYS wear a respirator rated for herbicide use.
You guys do what you feel you must, but please be as careful as possible when using these chemicals. Hey, if only 1 in 1,000 people can become ill from the stuff (which may be agrivated by whatever other known or unknown health issue you may have), well then don't be the 1...use PPE.

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