Glyphosate (dangerous??)

[MRBB]

I'm afraid I'll have to disagree. There are already farmers out there that have dropped the chemicals, focused on soil health, and are producing just as well as before. And producing nutrient rich foods as well. Take a look at some youtube videos by Gabe Brown, Dave Brandt, Advancing Echo Agriculture, and the Bionutrient Food Association.

yes some farmers can make it work without it, BUT not all farmers plant on the same soil types, or quality of the soil
yields will be way off for MOST farmers IMO if they tried to farm without use of Round up like chemicals and other chemicals
and its yields that pay farmers bills, without high yields yr after yr, many farmers would go under, as only so many hits one can take, add in all the other things farmers cannot control
and its hard to be willing to TRY and gamble without using it!

 

[Mortenson]

In northern states it's hard for farmers to succeed using no-till. The growing season is short. Soils in the spring don't dry out, especially when covered in a mat of crop residue. Fall plowing or disking really helps dry the soil out to get it fit for planting. Not to mention if you don't like chemicals, then no-till probably isn't what you should be preaching. Iron can wipe out a lot of weeds that would otherwise require additional passes of chemicals. I read a book in college called Saving the Planet with Pesticides and Plastics. I believe in it.

 

[yoderjac]

yes some farmers can make it work without it, BUT not all farmers plant on the same soil types, or quality of the soil
yields will be way off for MOST farmers IMO if they tried to farm without use of Round up like chemicals and other chemicals
and its yields that pay farmers bills, without high yields yr after yr, many farmers would go under, as only so many hits one can take, add in all the other things farmers cannot control
and its hard to be willing to TRY and gamble without using it!

Another thing to consider is the market. If a farm isn't financially viable it will fail. There is clearly a relatively small market for "organic" (whatever the heck that means) and the market will support some number of farmers from the premium the organic consumers are willing to pay. That doesn't mean all farmers can follow suite.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

In northern states it's hard for farmers to succeed using no-till. The growing season is short. Soils in the spring don't dry out, especially when covered in a mat of crop residue. Fall plowing or disking really helps dry the soil out to get it fit for planting. Not to mention if you don't like chemicals, then no-till probably isn't what you should be preaching. Iron can wipe out a lot of weeds that would otherwise require additional passes of chemicals. I read a book in college called Saving the Planet with Pesticides and Plastics. I believe in it.

Highly fertile soils can take a lot of abuse and still be very productive. That is true whether the abuse comes from iron or herbicides. It just goes to show that different locations will need a different mix of tools and approaches to find the right balance.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Barndog56]

I don't have time to go over all of the details, but if you guys will just watch one of the Gabe Brown videos he'll tell you exactly why Regenerative Agriculture principals will solve your problems.

 

[ksgobbler]

A lot of folks here switching to organic. This is a interesting article. If you go to the middle you can see them talking about all the excess commodities we produce. Drive by an western Kansas elevator and you will see thousands if not hundreds of thousands of bushels of wheat and sorghum. Around here they were dumping corn and beans into piles because there was nowhere to store it and they can’t sell it.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/newfoodeconomy.org/rural-kansas-depopulation-commodity-agriculture/amp/

 

[Mortenson]

I believe the corn carryout is projected at a 5 year low at current consumption. Those groundpiles usually get cleaned up. At this point the national crop is on pace to be large, however. God forbid farmers eventually found another market or two for their products. Ethanol, unlike mtbe or other oxygenates that refiners like to use to boost octane on their crappy low octane gas, doesn't cause cancer or poison groundwater. It's also homegrown and our troops aren't killed protecting it in the nastiest of places. Major major cost using our military to forever protect the flow of middleeastern oil. And last I checked etol was about 70 cents cheaper per gallon. But I'm a little bit different.. I still like American beef steak (in addition to venison) and Budweiser!

 

[ksgobbler]

I am vehemently opposed to corn based ethanol.

 

[Frosted brassica]

I wasn't sure where to post this, but I know guys are using Roundup on more than just plots, so I thought I'd post it here.
First off, I'm not crying wolf or saying the sky is falling, I'm just sharing something I was told at a doctor's appointment.
A little background info as to why I was at this particular doctor...
I've been having blood issues since 2012. Low white count and lately a very low Neutrophil count. Neutrophils are the part of white cells that fight infection.
My primary care doc finally sent me to a blood specialist and he saw things about my white cells that he didn't like, so he sent me to an oncologist, who, also agreed there was a potentially serious issue. At first, he tested for Leukemia by doing a bone marrow biopsy...came back neg. Then I started developing daily chills, followed by fevers as high as 104.6, followed by night sweats.
I spent 2 days in the ER and another 2 days admitted.
Then they turned attention to Lymphoma possibilities and did a CT scan...also negative, except it showed a couple small cysts (?) on my liver which could be a sign of a fungal infection. So they sent me to a infectious disease doc.

Here comes the part about Roundup...
The nurse was asking questions about our lifestyle and my wife said we have 31 acres and do a lot of habitat work. Without hesitation, the nurse asked if I use Roundup. You can probably guess what the answer to that was.
She immediately said "Throw it away! It's one of the most dangerous chemicals that is on the market". She claimed that when we spray Roundup, the plants release fungus that we breathe-in and that fungal infections are among the most difficult to treat. There are many thousands of fungai so identifying which one is causing an infection and how to treat it can be challenging.

I know there has been debate on these forums about the safety of Roundup. I tend to trust that it isn't that bad. I don't know if this is just another scare like alar, coffee, eggs or 90 other things that the scare turns out to be bogus.
I will say that I've never worn a respirator while spraying. I'm usually a little lazy about PPE, except when using a chainsaw. But from now on, I won't be spraying without a mask.

The docs still haven't figured out what my problem is, but I can tell you that this ordeal is getting mighty old. Seems like I'm in a different waiting room almost every other day. Now I have to get twice-per-week injections of a $5,000 per shot drug (Neupogen)...so they tell me. Google says $350 per injection.

Diseases related to ticks have come back negative, too.

Was any of this caused by Roundup? IDK, but the nurse thinks it's a distinct possibility.
What I do know is that I can't imagine managing my property without herbicides, and I also know that I will no longer be nonchalant about using PPE.
I'm not trying to start a debate about Roundup...just thought I'd share my story in case it can help anyone avoid illness.

Hope your health improves.

I want to share a source. I was recently searching for info on the health of eating deer that eat herbicides because the farmer added a new spray to kill the gly resistant weeds. The herbicide manufacturer and govt agencies could not answer my question. Finally was told to call the national pesticide information center and they found a study for me. Since I was asking about a herbicide mixed with gly the center also emailed me some info on gly. I haven’t read it all yet cause I answered my question and will continue to eat deer from that field. Here are the links they sent and their phone number if you are researching chemicals.

Pesticide Tolerance Petition Filing: Glyphosate
https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-1996-12-24/pdf/96-32531.pdf

Draft Human Health and Ecological Risk Assessments for Glyphosate
https://www.epa.gov/ingredients-use...th-and-ecological-risk-assessments-glyphosate

Glyphosate Technical Fact Sheet
http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/archive/glyphotech.html

If you have additional questions, please contact us at 800-858-7378,
Monday - Friday from 8:00am to 12:00pm Pacific Time to speak directly
with a Pesticide Specialist.

 

[S.T.Fanatic]

I believe the corn carryout is projected at a 5 year low at current consumption. Those groundpiles usually get cleaned up. At this point the national crop is on pace to be large, however. God forbid farmers eventually found another market or two for their products. Ethanol, unlike mtbe or other oxygenates that refiners like to use to boost octane on their crappy low octane gas, doesn't cause cancer or poison groundwater. It's also homegrown and our troops aren't killed protecting it in the nastiest of places. Major major cost using our military to forever protect the flow of middleeastern oil. And last I checked etol was about 70 cents cheaper per gallon. But I'm a little bit different.. I still like American beef steak (in addition to venison) and Budweiser!

Ethanol may not poison ground water but it sure uses an awful lot of it.

One of the first lessons I learned when it came to Gas engines is that putting water in the gas tank was bad.

Water is for washing cloths after a hard days work and making bush light.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Natty Bumppo]

"The scientific evidence on the impact of glyphosate is far from conclusive."

This seems to be the theme. For every 5 articles I read that report no ill health or environmental effects from gly, I'll read 5 that say to stay the heck away from the stuff.

Is gly harmless? They said the same about Agent Orange....then DDT...thalidomide....etc.

Is gly harmfull? Occasional light and safe use of gly by the hobbyist food plotter is probably harmless, IMHO.

When I was in Desert Storm we were given a series of experimental anti-chemical weapon shots and anti-anti-anthrax shots for which we had to sign a waiver saying we would not discuss these shots. We were all given P-tabs...little pop out pills that we took every 12 hours during the war. More than 25 years later 1 in 5 Desert Storm veterans suffer from a cocktail of strange and widespread symptoms that the VA calls Desert Storm Syndrome. I am symptom free. I also did not take those pills. Even as a 19 year old kid I knew I did not want to be a lab rat. I weighed the cost to benefit ratio in my mind and decided that the risk was low of a chemical weapons attack and I took my chances. Spit the pills out in the sand after our chief walked by and observed us take it. Now in my late 40's I still do not want to be a lab rat. Gly is probably harmless. But if it's not...like Agent Orange, DDT, thalidomide, and the P-tabs...I'd rather have some weeds in my plots than take a chance on my health.

 

[Tap]

"The scientific evidence on the impact of glyphosate is far from conclusive."

This seems to be the theme. For every 5 articles I read that report no ill health or environmental effects from gly, I'll read 5 that say to stay the heck away from the stuff.

Is gly harmless? They said the same about Agent Orange....then DDT...thalidomide....etc.

Is gly harmfull? Occasional light and safe use of gly by the hobbyist food plotter is probably harmless, IMHO.

When I was in Desert Storm we were given a series of experimental anti-chemical weapon shots and anti-anti-anthrax shots for which we had to sign a waiver saying we would not discuss these shots. We were all given P-tabs...little pop out pills that we took every 12 hours during the war. More than 25 years later 1 in 5 Desert Storm veterans suffer from a cocktail of strange and widespread symptoms that the VA calls Desert Storm Syndrome. I am symptom free. I also did not take those pills. Even as a 19 year old kid I knew I did not want to be a lab rat. I weighed the cost to benefit ratio in my mind and decided that the risk was low of a chemical weapons attack and I took my chances. Spit the pills out in the sand after our chief walked by and observed us take it. Now in my late 40's I still do not want to be a lab rat. Gly is probably harmless. But if it's not...like Agent Orange, DDT, thalidomide, and the P-tabs...I'd rather have some weeds in my plots than take a chance on my health.

Thank you for your service,Natty.

 

[FarmerDan]

Try as I might I can't turn away from this! Here are my credentials that explain my interest:
1. I am old.

That's it, that and I worked at the pointy end of the stick selling and applying ag chemicals for about 15 years. Oh, and i like to believe I know how to read a peer reviewed research study to decide for myself if the design is valid, what inferences can be made from the conclusions, and how the media handles the narrative. I do think it's the narrative that colors our perceptions.

I'm going to mix opinions and facts and hope I can tell the difference.

1. It's very difficult to design a study involving people. It's impossible to recruit a thousand people, half of whom are going to get an injection of glyphosate and half do not. Then, we wait to see who develops what. The hypothesis would be that the half that got injected turn into dogs while the control group does not. Can't do it which immediately casts doubt on such studies.

2. Most people, scientists, medical practitioners, etc, etc jump with joy when a study reinforces their beliefs.
3. Media sensationalizes finding especially if the findings scare people. Nothing ever gets written if the results are inconclusive.
4. For all the concern, as a population, we've never been healthier or lived longer. This might be changing, but then again, we've never lived this long before.

I guess I'm rambling now. In "the old days" we never wore protective gear. We were drenched with methoxychlor, breathed paraquat all day because we spilled it on our clothes, and we ate atrizine (not literally) like it was a condiment. Fertilizer dust was nothing.

Now, I realized some perceived danger in this and got out of the business as fast as I could, but still believe in herbicides and insecticides. At 65 I'm still here although I am a prostate cancer survivor. I think ag chemicals had nothing to do with it. My dad had it too. He didn't go anywhere near the stuff we're talking about.

YES. Be concerned. Take precautions. Use ag chemicals cautiously and responsibly. What all the scientific studys cannot tell us is the long term effects. We are just now entering that period.

As people working with habitat on a comparatively limited basis I would contented you have nothing to worry about -- any more than you should worry about salt, sugar, and all the other yummy stuff we ingest.

Drive safely!

 

[Livesintrees]

I have sprayed heavily by hand for a decade. I’m in big construction (electrician). And the crap we breathe on a daily basis is slowly killing us all. With that said when I know I’m going to be spraying in certain conditions I wear a respirator. The type that has interchangeable cartridges for different exposed risks. You can get em for around $30 and other then replacement cartridges (dust, chemical, General hazard) they last a lifetime. That would be my suggestion for anyone spraying large scale with fine mist sprayers. I’ve been on jobs where day one on site they hand us $500 worth of PPE ( personal protective equipment). For them to supply it you know it’s bad. I’ve been on jobs where they tell you to wash your hands BEFORE using the bathroom. Contaminated soils, enclosed spaces, special training for locations etc. it’s the world we live in and unfortunately created ourselves. They make gear to minimize and/or eliminate the risks. I for one go to work for money which allows me to hunt and buy equipment to enjoy myself. So if simple precautions allow me to continue doing so then that’s what I’ll do.

 

[Telemark]

I wouldn't take a nurse's advice on glyphosate. They are not licensed or educated to give medical diagnoses, let alone agricultural advice.

I don't understand what this nurse meant by "plants release fungus". That seems poorly worded at best, and biologically improbable. Sounds like she is repeating something she read on facebook.

That said, glyphosate is toxic, and a good mask is certainly a good idea.

 

[Telemark]

I have sprayed heavily by hand for a decade. I’m in big construction (electrician). And the crap we breathe on a daily basis is slowly killing us all.

In the context of this thread, I just read your handle as "Livesinstress."

 

[MRBB]

"The scientific evidence on the impact of glyphosate is far from conclusive."

This seems to be the theme. For every 5 articles I read that report no ill health or environmental effects from gly, I'll read 5 that say to stay the heck away from the stuff.

Is gly harmless? They said the same about Agent Orange....then DDT...thalidomide....etc.

Is gly harmfull? Occasional light and safe use of gly by the hobbyist food plotter is probably harmless, IMHO.

When I was in Desert Storm we were given a series of experimental anti-chemical weapon shots and anti-anti-anthrax shots for which we had to sign a waiver saying we would not discuss these shots. We were all given P-tabs...little pop out pills that we took every 12 hours during the war. More than 25 years later 1 in 5 Desert Storm veterans suffer from a cocktail of strange and widespread symptoms that the VA calls Desert Storm Syndrome. I am symptom free. I also did not take those pills. Even as a 19 year old kid I knew I did not want to be a lab rat. I weighed the cost to benefit ratio in my mind and decided that the risk was low of a chemical weapons attack and I took my chances. Spit the pills out in the sand after our chief walked by and observed us take it. Now in my late 40's I still do not want to be a lab rat. Gly is probably harmless. But if it's not...like Agent Orange, DDT, thalidomide, and the P-tabs...I'd rather have some weeds in my plots than take a chance on my health.

first of I will say thanks for your service too
but at the samre time, if you choose to not use it, doesn;'t mean your not getting it
as its used in so many things, that your exposed to the chemical, just in other ways

so IMO, its again back to the same deal, if you don't want wasted time and money on plots, use it
in my area without use of chemicals in plots, you will have 90% weeds in short order, making a plot rather useless!
food plot seeds, tractors, fuel, time energy, all cost $$ and ??
unless you have prime grounds, I do not see how any food plotter can have great productive plots without it, unless you plant every yr and such which again gets VERY costly!

and please don't take this as bashing as NOT meant to be
just saying, even if a few folks choose not to use it, again, doesn't mean there not getting the harmful effects of it, due to its in so many foods and other things we use
if we are to be exposed to it, why not reap some sort of a reward from using it is my view!

 

[H20fwler]

You were talking about feeding people. I was talking about fuel mad from corn.

Bio fuels arent keeping the cost at the pump down much if any. It's just another form of ag welfare. We have a serious over production problem in this country. Canada did well by saying they dont need to buy our excess milk when they have enough of their own. Does it hurt the American farmer? Sure it does but they did it to them selves. Every cow added to the heard is just trading a few more dollars today for less in the future. The same goes for corn. Hybred varieties, Round up ready this and triple stack that. There just isn't enough use for all the corn being produced. When that happened you started seeing excuses for producing more of it. Ethonal, plastic, corn syrup put in everything imaginable yadda yadda yadda.

It has nothing to do with feeding the world. It's all about selling more expensive seed.

I agree with the ethanol, I think it is nothing more than an industry totally supported by government subsidies and it is neither a clean fuel source or really leaving that much smaller of a footprint.
As far as the corn production...agree with corn being grown in USA out distancing the amount we can use for our own needs but there are definitely countries that could use it they just aren't able to get it, and therein lies the rub. Most of the countries that could really benefit from our over abundance of ag products are either to poor to be able to purchase them or their governments are to corrupt to deal with or both.

 

[Natty Bumppo]

Thank you for your service,Natty.

Thanks Tap.

 

[Natty Bumppo]

first of I will say thanks for your service too

Thanks.

but at the samre time, if you choose to not use it, doesn;'t mean your not getting it
as its used in so many things, that your exposed to the chemical, just in other ways

so IMO, its again back to the same deal, if you don't want wasted time and money on plots, use it
in my area without use of chemicals in plots, you will have 90% weeds in short order, making a plot rather useless!
food plot seeds, tractors, fuel, time energy, all cost $$ and ??
unless you have prime grounds, I do not see how any food plotter can have great productive plots without it, unless you plant every yr and such which again gets VERY costly!

and please don't take this as bashing as NOT meant to be
just saying, even if a few folks choose not to use it, again, doesn't mean there not getting the harmful effects of it, due to its in so many foods and other things we use
if we are to be exposed to it, why not reap some sort of a reward from using it is my view!

Not taking it as bashing at all. I understand what you're saying. By your same logic, I suppose since I can't totally avoid second hand smoke I should go out and start smoking 2 packs a day?

I am aware that gly and other pesticides and herbicides are in commercial foods and drinks, yes. But that's exactly why I choose a lifestyle that limits my exposure to these. My wife and I grow our year's supply of our own vegetables and can and freeze them. We buy a quarter cow each year...locally raised and grass fed. We have a few chickens. Make our own maple syrup. And what we do buy, we do our best to buy organic. It's all about limiting exposure over the course of a lifetime. Don't forget, I did say that IMHO light use by the hobbyist plotter is probably harmless. I have used it in the past. And I would use it again. But I would take precautions and I would use it sparingly. I'm fine with some weeds and wildflowers in my plots. In fact, there is some weed in one of my plots that the deer absolutely hammer. Have no idea what it is.