does super lime like Cal-Turf work?

[Persimman]

I need to put out 2-1/4 tons lime initial dose on a new food plot, all spread by hand. The local fertilizer dealer recommended Cal-Turf. It costs 4x as much, but the use rate is 1/4 of their pelletized lime, so overall cost is very close. Works much faster; pH starts changing in a couple weeks. Generally, I think that hydrated lime is the most cost (and labor) effective, due to its CCE of 125% (25% more reactive than standard lime) and very fine grind. Dusty though. If Cal-Turf is for real, it would save me a lot of work. The lime specs on Cal-Turf's label are not outstanding, pretty close to pelletized lime, CCE = 100%, but not as fine nor as concentrated as hydrated dust. I'm looking at roughly 98 bags of pellets, 63 bags of dusty hydrated, or 25 bags of Cal-Turf. That's a huge difference for my old back muscles.

I don't understand how CalTurf can be so much better, given their lime specs. Must be other calcium or pH influencing materials that aren't part of the standard lime analysis. I would consider the fertilizer dealer to be trustworthy. But if it is just hype, or misunderstanding, it's a lot of $ difference. Can any of y'all attest to the power of Cal-Turf?

Here's some copy/paste from their label pdf, easily found online. Shucks, I just added it as an attachment. My internet skills amaze me.
Why Cal-Turf Pro and Mag-Turf Pro?
Our line of professional limestone products are more effective than limestone in raising soil pH. Cal-Turf Pro and Mag-Turf Pro begin to
neutralize soil acidity immediately, resulting in soil pH increases that can be measured in weeks rather than months. Cal-Turf Pro and
Mag-Turf Pro allow lawn applicators to use 75% less product; saving you time, labor, transportation and storage. Cal-Turf Pro and
Mag-Turf Pro are formulated to contain a chelating agent and limestone within every pellet.
How are Cal-Turf Pro and Mag-Turf Pro different from other limestone products?
Cal-Turf Pro and Mag-Turf Pro are high purity limestones specially formulated with an organic acid (Polyhydroxycarboxylic Acid). Organic acids are powerful chelating agents that bind to plant
nutrients such as Calcium, Magnesium and Iron to increase solubility and availability. Increasing solubility improves the translocation of nutrients into plants thus increasing:
• Root Development • Vigor and Plant Growth • Drought and Stress Tolerance
Why Cal-Turf Pro and Mag-Turf Pro are superior to similar products?
Our new Encapsulate Pellet Technology™ EPT synthesizes a high purity limestone with an organic acid chelating agent before the pelletizing process. This assures every pellet contains a uniform
blend of chelating agent and limestone. Other competing products do not combine limestone and a chelating agent within every pellet but instead add the chelating agent to an unproductive clay filler
or carrier. The carrier is then mixed with limestone pellets which leads to segregation and delayed reaction time for the chelating process. The advantages of EPT over competing products are:
• Faster acting immediate results • Eliminates all limestone and organic acid reaction time delays • No segregation of the chelating agent occurs inside the bag
• A more effective and potent product as no unproductive carriers are required • Uniform application and distribution of the chelating agent

 

[4wanderingeyes]

I have never used it, but I am pretty sure it would leach through your soil much faster then regular lime. The recommendation for Your lime is to get your soil to an ideal 7ph. Your soil will grow Most stuff now I am sure. Without knowing your ph, and what you plan on planting. I would just put lime down, plant it and see how it works. You aren’t growing a cash crop.

 

[Persimman]

soil test pH was 4.8, with the recommendation to apply 4.25 tons/acre to get to 6.2. That's a lot of lime. I won't do it all in one day, so my initial seed choices need to be adapted to low pH - suggestions welcome. Overall I want to get pH to 6 by next fall. Soil is very rich, somewhat sandy, and grows tremendous weed crops, like wildflowers 8' tall. It's a flat area that built up behind beaver dams decades ago. Beavers are long gone, leaving a great place for food plots.

 

[4wanderingeyes]

Assuming the soil test was correct, 4.8 is rather low. Is the soil sandy, clay? I guess getting lime down however you can would be step in the right direction.

 

[yoderjac]

Forget about the short-term. If your soil is sandy, lime will move through it quickly. If it is clay it will move through more slowly. I would focus on the long term. Cal-Turf is not going to be any kind of a magic bullet. There is no need to change your pH quickly and have it revert quickly.

Step 1: Do no harm - Learn about soil health and minimize tillage. You may need none (see the Throw-N-Mow thread) or just scratching the top inch at most.
Step 2: Start with crops like Winter Rye that tolerate low pH and poor fertility. Great for both deer and soil.

Tell us a bit more about your plot. Why does the lime need to be spread by hand and how large is the field? Is there no access for equipment? What equipment do you have?

I'm in central VA. The coops around me will come out and spread lime for me, or I can rent a buggy from them and do it myself. I would not waste my money on Cal-Turf. I'd look at pelletized lime and Ag lime as options. Pelletized lime can be spread without special equipment. Any broadcast spreader will work. Ag lime requires a special lime buggy or truck to spread, but I've seen guys shovel it out of a pickup as someone drove them around and I've seen guys use a leaf blower to blow it out of the bed of the pickup truck as well.

I'm presuming your 2 1/4 tons is 2 1/4 tons/acre correct? At 4.8 it will probably take two applications about 6 months apart to get you fully adjusted. If you apply the first batch now, you should have no problem growing Winter Rye planted in mid-September.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

I just connected this with your other thread on soil testing. I'd suggest you forget the mix of things you were going to plant on labor day. Focus on Winter Rye this first year. You can even wait a bit longer to plant than Labor Day. I'd get the lime down as soon as you can. When labor day rolls around, just start watching the forecast and plant before a good rain. Keep in mind that if you are using gly for burn down, check the label on your generic for rainfast. Many are rainfast in an hour, but it may change the order of T&M if you are getting on the edge of rain.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[4wanderingeyes]

Winter rye and clover grow decent in low ph, and not very good soil. This is a picture of an old gravel campsite on my property. I just throw winter rye and some clover on it every Labor Day. Deer are always in it. Never tossed lime on it, or fertilized. Never disced it, nuked it 1 time, and tossed winter rye and clover on it. You don’t need to plant popular seed to attract deer. Just basic stuff works. I have deer in there all day pretty much.

 

[yoderjac]

Winter rye and clover grow decent in low ph, and not very good soil. This is a picture of an old gravel campsite on my property. I just throw winter rye and some clover on it every Labor Day. Deer are always in it. Never tossed lime on it, or fertilized. Never disced it, nuked it 1 time, and tossed winter rye and clover on it. You don’t need to plant popular seed to attract deer. Just basic stuff works. I have deer in there all day pretty much.

View attachment 31122

At 4.8 I would not waste my money on a perennial clover. There are few benefits from an annual clover as nitrogen fixing nodules don't even form in soils with a pH of under 5.0. I'd stick with straight WR this season and put my money and time into the lime. WR will be attractive to deer during the hunting season this year. If he makes the second application of lime in the early spring and plants buckwheat when the soil temps hit near 80 degrees, the field will support a fall plant of perennial clover (He is in VA, so I'd recommend Durana) with a nurse crop of WR. I think this will be just as effective for deer and his perennial clover will compete much better against weeds in the long-run if he waits a year. I'd focus on a thick crop of WR this fall that will also help with weeds next spring until the buckwheat is planted.

But you are right some of the clover will grow and the WR definitely will grow while the soil amends.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Persimman]

Thanks for the discussion. In a different plot with similar soil, 2 tests by VT Extension put the pH at 4.8. At that point the soil scientist said 2.5 t/a lime to get to 5.2 pH in 6" depth in order to grow 'blueberries', which was what I put on the form because I was planting chestnuts. They said that it would take 4.25 t/a to get to 6.2.
Now I have opportunity to use a different patch with the same history and plant growth, so initially I'm guessing it is the same soil. Yes, I raised a separate question about how to fill in the form to get pertinent recommendations. Someone else had a plot there for 2 years, and now dormant for 2 years. I plan to go in, take soil samples, do a reasonable lime and fert, t&m, to get the process going, then finish off the lime based on the new soil test for this plot. I mentioned 2-1/4 tons cuz it's half an acre. I don't know how much lime the last plotter used, but guess it wasn't much. So I'll take a sample, spread maybe 1-1/2 tons now, then if my results say it needs 2.5, that means I need to add 1t more this fall. Get a lump out there now and get it working, then fine tune with the test results.
Let's see, other questions above... field is accessed by pick-up truck. I have a scut with Brushbull rc, 25 gal sprayer, carryall, and a pull cultipacker; no FEL. I also have a rear blade and landscape rake, but I want to do the zero disturbance route. T&m or the buffalo ideas. It's over 2 hrs from my home, so activities need to be planned well and I'm hauling the tractor and stuff across the mountain. I might be able to borrow a cone spreader, but need to make sure it's not too heavy for my rig. I'll check that out this weekend also.
Is a lime buggy something you can pull by pick-up? Is there someone there to load on Saturdays? If they spread it for you, is that only on week days?
I'll be going over tomorrow with the mower to see how it looks. I'm not sure if t&m will work if there's too much thatch. That's why I was thinking of mowing now to knock it down, then go back to spray the regrowth and seed under that. Would you guys seed before you mow 6' of weeds? That thick thatch is another reason I'm comfortable starting earlier than most. The flat area maximizes absorption, and I'll have lots of natural mulch. Other guys on the same property plant Labor Day, and their stuff often doesn't grow much by hunting season. They always burn their plots and use a no-till drill (retired farmers). I think t&m will better, with the buildup of the organic layer.
thanks again for all the comments. When people ask questions, that means they're thinking about what they read.

 

[Persimman]

also, ref the comment that Cal-turf is short-lived, I'm not sure about that. If it has a coarser grind than the hydrated lime, it seems it would last longer. That's part of my question about what else is in it and how it really works. Lots of fun discussion here, but I still haven't heard from people who used or believe in Cal-turf. Maybe that answers that question! I could be a guinea pig and split my plot in half. 10 bags of Cal-turf on one side and 40 bags of reg'lar lime on the other. No difference in cost, but a big difference in work. Actually, if I'm going to be maintaining this plot for 10 yrs, it would be worth it to know for sure. hmmm...

 

[yoderjac]

That sounds about right. My soils are about 4.8 to 5.0 before amendment. It takes me about 4 tons/ac to achieve 6.5, VT say not to apply more than 3 tons per ac at one application and apply the rest 6 months later. That is because plants are not responding beyond the 3 ton/ac level.

As for the lime buggies, the ones I rent for Southern States are ground drive for the belt. This means you don't have to worry about ground speed. You can pull them with anything from that perspective. The problem is that the lime is dumped on to spinners and those spinners are driven by a PTO. So in order to use one you need something that can tow about 3 tons (rough weight when full of lime) and a PTO (540 ish). My coop is only open till noon on Saturday and closed Sunday but when all the farmers are calling for lime, I see the lime trucks on the road at least 6 and maybe 7 days a week.

When I have a thick weedy field, I will typically mow and then wait a bit. This allows the debris to desiccate and the rest to begin actively growing again. I get better coverage when I spray.

The Cal-tuf (and similar product) discussion has gone on before. Soil scientists much smarter on soils then me have weighed in. I doubt you will find many of the regulars on here that have experience with it. Why? Not because it does not work, but it is probably not the most cost effective solution for food plotting. I don't find many farmers in my area using it. If it is not cost effective for a farmer, it is not close to cost effective for a food plotter. Farmers live on yield. Yield is pretty low on the priority list for us. Particle size is not the only factor in how fast lime will adjust your pH and move through the soil, but in general, what is fast ain't long lasting. I can see where a farmer may need a rescue solution that can mean the difference between failure and success.

In general, ag lime is the most cost effective solution for adjusting pH in our area provided you can apply it.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[BobinCt]

I’d also go with Jacks recommendation as well.

 

[FarmerDan]

Soil pH and the amendments we use to raise fertility and productivity are a rather complicated subject. It gets even thornier when the discussion is about wildlife habitat. Now I will start with my stream of consciousness.
1. Instead of matching the soil to the plant, why don't we find plants to match the soil?
2. If the soil pH is in the 4s why would you even think about putting a crop and/or a food plot there. Trust me, it's a losing proposition. I didn't read too deeply but I suspect the land use was/is trees or pasture. It's that for a reason - like low soil pH!
3. Improve that habit rather than trying to muscle the soil into something it will never be.
4. This expensive miracle in a bag lime is a solution looking for a problem. It will raise the pH quickly, but what goes up must come down. It's most effective use is with vegetable growers who find the need for a mid-growing season calcium boost. Turf? Sure if you'r managing a golf course or athletic fields. Use it and you can keep your job another week.
5. Choosing to haul pellitized lime or ag lime into a field, remote or not, will provide immediate benefit. Sure, the full benefit comes some months down the road, but compared to doing nothing, well, you might be amazed. But, again, it's a hard losing battle.
6. So far we've assumed your sample was a good one. Sampling is a complex procedure. Did you scrape off the top layer of biomass? How deep did you go? And did you use a shovel? How many places did you sample to make a sample? Oh, it gets better. Did you dig deep enough to know how much topsoil you have to work with?

I guess I'm sounding kinda' snarky, but this situation is a real challenge. Sometimes I think we think we can do miracles. But no matter how hard we try, sometimes a dead horse is a dead horse and no amount of effort is going to change that. Sometimes - heck, lots of times - we need to change our thinking. And, sometimes you just have to experience it for yourself.
B
e
s
t
Wishes

 

[35-acre]

I've used solu-cal which is a calcified lime as well. I got my soil test, emailed them and they gave me the dosage (x amount, x times this year). I don't recall the specifics but it worked well for me. It's primarily designed for lawns and helps with a more immediate (short term) gain. It's now what I use and seal out. I've gone from clay to decent soil after several years of t&m.

(My results are no means a guarantee of anyone else's)

 

[Persimman]

Thanks again for the discussions. Will winter rye make viable seed and reseed itself? Last November I put forage oats in our vegetable garden. This summer I mowed off the mature dead stalks/seed heads, and have a great start on this winter’s cover for free! But the counterman at the ag seed store got all confused when I asked him if wr makes seeds/grain. Farmers only chop it or graze it. Or kill it. Is wr the same as’cover crop rye’?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[VTer]

Yes. WR should make seed heads and reseed your field if you dont cut it.

 

[yoderjac]

Thanks again for the discussions. Will winter rye make viable seed and reseed itself? Last November I put forage oats in our vegetable garden. This summer I mowed off the mature dead stalks/seed heads, and have a great start on this winter’s cover for free! But the counterman at the ag seed store got all confused when I asked him if wr makes seeds/grain. Farmers only chop it or graze it. Or kill it. Is wr the same as’cover crop rye’?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Plant in heavy in the fall at least 100lbs/ac . September works well in VA. Look for the first good rain in the forecast after labor day and plant ahead of that. That will keep the WR attractive throughout our season. Do nothing in the spring or summer. Deer will use the WR early in the spring, but it will soon get too fibrous to be attractive. It will produce heads and turn brown in the summer. Deer and turkey will use the grain heads to some degree but not a lot. Wait until September again and mow it. You can spray if weeds have infiltrated. If you have a cultipacker, use it. If not, ATV tires work fine for pressing the seed into the ground.

Farmers plant cover crops in the fall for soil conservation purposes. That is where the "cover crop rye" name comes from. Cover crop rye is usually VNS (Variety not specified) it works great for deer!

Thanks,

Jack

 

[FarmerDan]

But the counterman at the ag seed store got all confused when I asked him if wr makes seeds/grain. Farmers only chop it or graze it. Or kill it. Is wr the same as’cover crop rye’?

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Whiskey made from rye gain (not chopped, never frozen or stirred) is a delight!

 

[goatman]

You won't be able to fill a cone spreader full with lime. To wet. I just did 2 ton on a half acre. Loaded half full and tried to keep it mostly to the back. You will also need a push pole to use from the tractor.

 

[Persimman]

Soil pH and the amendments we use to raise fertility and productivity are a rather complicated subject. It gets even thornier when the discussion is about wildlife habitat. Now I will start with my stream of consciousness.
1. Instead of matching the soil to the plant, why don't we find plants to match the soil?
2. If the soil pH is in the 4s why would you even think about putting a crop and/or a food plot there. Trust me, it's a losing proposition. I didn't read too deeply but I suspect the land use was/is trees or pasture. It's that for a reason - like low soil pH!
3. Improve that habit rather than trying to muscle the soil into something it will never be.
4. This expensive miracle in a bag lime is a solution looking for a problem. It will raise the pH quickly, but what goes up must come down. It's most effective use is with vegetable growers who find the need for a mid-growing season calcium boost. Turf? Sure if you'r managing a golf course or athletic fields. Use it and you can keep your job another week.
5. Choosing to haul pellitized lime or ag lime into a field, remote or not, will provide immediate benefit. Sure, the full benefit comes some months down the road, but compared to doing nothing, well, you might be amazed. But, again, it's a hard losing battle.
6. So far we've assumed your sample was a good one. Sampling is a complex procedure. Did you scrape off the top layer of biomass? How deep did you go? And did you use a shovel? How many places did you sample to make a sample? Oh, it gets better. Did you dig deep enough to know how much topsoil you have to work with?

I guess I'm sounding kinda' snarky, but this situation is a real challenge. Sometimes I think we think we can do miracles. But no matter how hard we try, sometimes a dead horse is a dead horse and no amount of effort is going to change that. Sometimes - heck, lots of times - we need to change our thinking. And, sometimes you just have to experience it for yourself.
B
e
s
t
Wishes

FDan, thanks for all the discussion. It may be a bit snarky or personal, but we're all people here in addition to being habitat managers, and it's good to indulge our humanity. To follow your stream...
1) In general, I agree with finding the right plants rather than manipulating dirt. Out of this 300 ac area I'm allowed to play on, and the 160 ac in-law land I'm allowed to play on a little, this is the only food plot I've ever tried. For this teeny part of my life I want to grow stuff that I pick out.
2) Picked this spot because it's already clear (not my land and not comfortable pushing out trees to make clearings), excellent dirt, lines up well with wildlife travel patterns, and well away from prying eyes. It was a beaver swamp. For most of my history hunting on this farm, this land was under water.
3) Done a lot of that, and continuing. Limited by lack of ownership, but still spend hours working (for fun) on habitat improvements.
4) Question wasn't about the cost; it was about whether it is really 4x as effective. I've put it down now, at 1/4 the soil test recommendation, so in 6 months I'll check the pH and see what happened.
5) Yeah, I read a bunch about fertilizing native browse, like the DNR guy who said "fertilize honeysuckle and deer will feed so hard they'll kill it". So I carried hundreds of pounds of lime and fertilizer around the woods hitting preferred trees/shrubs, honeysuckle, greenbriar, pokeberry, and just plain general distribution. My wife was along the day they set a #1500 pallet of lime on my mini trailer (and she saw the bill). What are you doing??? says she. That weekend I found out that I was incapable of spreading 1500# lime in one day, with each bag carried over half a mile by hand. What a wuss. But I still believe lime is the most important, and I still am very big on native browse.
6) Scraped off top, dug a hole, took a 1" thick section down edge of hole, cut section 6" wide and bucketed it. Repeated 15 times. Then rolled the samples and chopped and ground and poured back and forth between buckets and finally grabbed enough to fill the tiny box. Not accurate enough for my personality, but still way better than the majority of men who don't test at all. This will be the 3rd soil test I've done on this farm, so consistencies will be reinforced. Haven't dug deeper than 2'. It's easy digging, cuz it's generations of sediment behind the beaver dams. I'll dig more. Maybe leave an artifact.
For me personally, and I do think the discussion touches on personal aspects, I have historically eschewed food plots. I see people vested in their 1 acre spot, sitting in one place all season and being disappointed. (Well, actually, 3 years in a row he shot the nicest buck...) Food plots are expensive. I love to be in the woods. Now tree plots - that really gets me going. I plant lots of trees for deer. And habitat management and native browse and fire - that's where my heart is. But you see, FDan, (if you don't mind listening a little big longer, I'm almost done) (this is SO healthy for me) Wifey got so fed up with me spending so much time fixing our 25 yr old cat 0 tractor that she talked me into a 2004 JD diesel. Then we needed the attachments. First the snowblower and snowplow (we purchased in the fall), then the boom pole, carry-all (lots of design choices when building a carry-all), and I am most excited about the cultipacker. I HAVE MY OWN CULTIPACKER. The tractor came with a 4' BrushBull. I had a 25 gal spray rig. Somewhere in the same life-phase, Wifey got tired of me messing up the Explorer hauling potted trees and straw. She pushed me into an F150. Tractor, attachments, F150 = new utility treller. So you see, FD, the game patch isn't the disease, it's a symptom. I just love loading up my treller and spending a day afield - especially when I can use my cultipacker. That is life. Abundant life.
Egads, now you've got me so mellow I won't be worth squat the rest of the day. Think I'll just go home, take a lawn chair out in the field, and sit in front of my cultipacker. My very own cultipacker. Maybe take it down to the back yard and make some stripes. Or maybe just sit and look at it.
{sigh}