Dipper rotation

[dipper]

Cracks in the driveway are great places to watch how easy it is for these types of seed to germinate. I swear, I always find a way to spill seed. Maybe it's my good luck charm.

 

[Tree Spud]

Tree, when do you plan on planting the rye and what are you using it for? Part of the LC mix? Stu, I'm curious why you would have suggested he ask for spring rye? If he wants to plant yet this year I would think winter rye would be more appropriate? I would understand the spring rye recommendation if he were wanting to plant in April or May, but unless one wanted it to die off with the frost, I think winter rye would be what he is looking for. Or did I miss something?

Wisc & Stu ... Thanks for your reply's ... I am less confused now ... :)

I have heard in 2 other areas this reference to spring rye and could never get a handle on what it was. My biggest concern was that it might be a variety of rye grass.

Based on your comments above, I am already doing what was is described above. Planting winter rye in the fall which will re-emerge in the spring. Letting it act as a cover and going to seed.

 

[Honker]

Dipper, I tried a variation of your planting method this weekend. Two year old alsike clover plots were mowed last weekend. This weekend the plots were sprayed (gly), fertilized and seeded with the Lickcreek mixes and cultipacked. For some reason my plots are notorious for being slow to establish so hopefully the extra time will be about right.

 

[dipper]

I'll say it again, cost doesn't reflect quality when your food plotting. Sticking with the basics LC first devolped are attracting deer all over the country, and helping build soil.
This is the second year I planted wheat. The main reason because it only cost me $4.90/ bushell. I use little to no fertilizer, as well. The wheat I added will get some nice height to it. This height is going to extend use of the small plot, giving me some late season drawing power. In fact, most of my plots get used well into March, with 30"s of snow covering them. Obviously the soybeans and sunflowers are going to be attracting/ feeding deer. Brassicas are a no brainer. Another interesting thing with brassicas is; I broadcasted radish into this plot last fall. It was a great plot, until the deer wiped them out. Rye saved the day last year, when it was broadcasted early July. Some of the radish didn't germinate till this year. The radish are about 6"s high right now, and every couple feet. I should get some big time growth out of them.
Another little strategy is the spring planted oats. It's going to mature over the next few weeks. It's gonna seed itself, and I'm going to have a bunch of tender young oats at the start of fall, and I won't have to bother planting it!!!
I did use a not till drill to seed the warm season crop. However, we are seeing guys getting results just broadcasting. Adding the cool season seed is as simple as the picture reflects. I used my small spreader to broadcast the seed. I just walked the spreader along, instead of using a machine. This way there is no damage to the warm season crop.
There is a thread going on where guys are saying it is costing them a couple hundred dollars/ acre to food plot. I think that's crazy. I didn't use any fertilizer on this 1 acre plot. After adding the cost of the warm season seed, and the cool season seed, I'd imagine I'm at about $50 max.

 

[SD51555]

I've been a quiet fan of Dipper and his preachings. I even bought the cover crop book he recommends, and I read from it daily for a few minutes to see if I can continue to pick up gems like easy establishment, easy termination, nutrient scavenging etc.

I put fertilizer on my virgin ground simply because there wasn't any nitrogen whatsoever in the soil. From here, I'm planning to go no-amendments (other than lime). That being said, I'm hoping my rye and radish pick up the nitrogen I laid down. Next year, I plan to try to keep one legume in the annual rotation to preserve and replenish the nitrogen bank:

Berseem clover
Cowpeas
Still looking for a third one to keep the pests guessing on a three year rotation.

 

[Tree Spud]

I'll say it again, cost doesn't reflect quality when your food plotting. Sticking with the basics LC first devolped are attracting deer all over the country, and helping build soil.
This is the second year I planted wheat. The main reason because it only cost me $4.90/ bushell. I use little to no fertilizer, as well. The wheat I added will get some nice height to it. This height is going to extend use of the small plot, giving me some late season drawing power. In fact, most of my plots get used well into March, with 30"s of snow covering them. Obviously the soybeans and sunflowers are going to be attracting/ feeding deer. Brassicas are a no brainer. Another interesting thing with brassicas is; I broadcasted radish into this plot last fall. It was a great plot, until the deer wiped them out. Rye saved the day last year, when it was broadcasted early July. Some of the radish didn't germinate till this year. The radish are about 6"s high right now, and every couple feet. I should get some big time growth out of them.
Another little strategy is the spring planted oats. It's going to mature over the next few weeks. It's gonna seed itself, and I'm going to have a bunch of tender young oats at the start of fall, and I won't have to bother planting it!!!
I did use a not till drill to seed the warm season crop. However, we are seeing guys getting results just broadcasting. Adding the cool season seed is as simple as the picture reflects. I used my small spreader to broadcast the seed. I just walked the spreader along, instead of using a machine. This way there is no damage to the warm season crop.
There is a thread going on where guys are saying it is costing them a couple hundred dollars/ acre to food plot. I think that's crazy. I didn't use any fertilizer on this 1 acre plot. After adding the cost of the warm season seed, and the cool season seed, I'd imagine I'm at about $50 max.

Dipper ... with the constant rotation of plant regeneration and new plantings (whether over seeding or seed drill) how do you address weeds and grasses?

Even plots that have been sprayed multiple times are prone to new weed & grass seeds brought in by deer and other critters along with other sources.

I realize rye is allopathic, but how do you maintain a sustainable plot without chemicals or serious ground tilling?

 

[dipper]

Dipper ... with the constant rotation of plant regeneration and new plantings (whether over seeding or seed drill) how do you address weeds and grasses?

Even plots that have been sprayed multiple times are prone to new weed & grass seeds brought in by deer and other critters along with other sources.

I realize rye is allopathic, but how do you maintain a sustainable plot without chemicals or serious ground tilling?

First let's define a weed-I define a weed as a plant growing out of place....just think about that.
Tillage creates more weed problems long term than reduces them. I manage plots that are regularly tilled. They are consumed with weeds right now if they haven't been sprayed at least twice this year. There is more weeds and grass, as the plots becomes thinner, as well. The no till plots have far less weeds, with the same spray schedule. When you till, you replant that dormant weed seed that can be idle for decades. Most weeds results from dormancy, than being brought in by a foreign source. Always having lush thick plots are a great defense to any weed prevention. Nasty invasive grass can become an exception, that's why I hate it.
Clover turns into a "weed"(don't forget the definition of a weed) when it is left to seed, after a couple years. It is a real aggresive and efficient plant. It will completely consume a plot, making it diffecult to plant into. At that time I will kill it chemicially. Don't worry about replanting clover, that dormant clover seed will germinate. It won't germinate to a perfect clover plot we are all conditioned to like. It's seed will lay dormant along with the many other "weed" seed out there. Clover is just a good weed until it becomes too thick.
Rye isn't the only crop that smothers the competetion, they all do. The allopathic properties of rye are also over blown. Many seeds will find a way to grow in established rye. Just like the radish seed I just mentioned. Some didn't germinate until 8 months after I broadcasted it. That's fine with me. Under conventional thought that volunteer radish would be considered a weed. From a food plotters perspective it isn't, because I want to be growing it anyway. Besides clover, no one plant will ever completely consume a plot, because I have created so much competetion. There is a threat of brassicas to reseed themselves, but brassicas winterkill in my area. So there is little threat of them getting to seed. That is not the case if your brassicas overwinter.
I'm pushing my limits a little on the above plot. There is some 2" crabgrass that just germinated. I could kill it with a grass select herbicide. I could also use glyphosate as well, but that would kill the oats and peas, which isn't really a bad thing. The oats and peas already scavenged nutrients, added OM, and fixated some nitrogen. From a cover crop perspective they completed their task. It isn't criticial to have them complete their lifecycle. It's all a personal choice. It would have been more ideal if I would have added my cool season crop before that crabgrass germinated. No crying over spilled milk, and I adventerous, so I'll live with it.
I'm not against using chemicials. Some times you have to use them, some times you don't. The food plotter has to be able to evaulate and weight each individual plot. My management isn't for the uneducated who have the read the directions on a BOB label. My management is for guys on this type of site, who are committed to actually understanding the plants they are growing, and what they want to accomplish.
I'll say it again I haven't created really any of this. I've taken some widely accepted cover cropping concepts farmers all over the world are practicing. I have given it a fod plot spin. Not waiting for crops to mature, to add another crop. Why....because we don't have too!

 

[dipper]

I've been a quiet fan of Dipper and his preachings. I even bought the cover crop book he recommends, and I read from it daily for a few minutes to see if I can continue to pick up gems like easy establishment, easy termination, nutrient scavenging etc.

I put fertilizer on my virgin ground simply because there wasn't any nitrogen whatsoever in the soil. From here, I'm planning to go no-amendments (other than lime). That being said, I'm hoping my rye and radish pick up the nitrogen I laid down. Next year, I plan to try to keep one legume in the annual rotation to preserve and replenish the nitrogen bank:

Berseem clover
Cowpeas
Still looking for a third one to keep the pests guessing on a three year rotation.

Sounds great, there likely many plants out there that I'm not considering. I stick with the cheap basics. :) Keep us posted on what your growing, and the results. Not sure what kind of ph you are dealing with, but I have a plot or 2 with a ph of 5.7. I've added some lime, but have no real plan on adding more. The plots look great without it.
You are no doubt on the right track!

 

[Buffalohunter1]

Hello everyone. New guy on the site. My question is I was able to get to get some Winter Rye for free from a friend but it also contains vetch seed in it. I'm assuming it is hairy vetch from what he tells me. Is it a good thing to have in my food plot cocktail? Or am I going to have problems down the road getting rid of it. My property is located south of Peru in northeast Portage county.

 

[dipper]

Hello everyone. New guy on the site. My question is I was able to get to get some Winter Rye for free from a friend but it also contains vetch seed in it. I'm assuming it is hairy vetch from what he tells me. Is it a good thing to have in my food plot cocktail? Or am I going to have problems down the road getting rid of it. My property is located south of Peru in northeast Portage county.

Welcome aboard BH, we are darn near neighbors. Vetch is a popular cover crop. I've never played with it because the seed is actually pretty expensive seed. I heard the deer like it, as well, but I can't speak to that personally I wouldn't worry about it, in fact, I'd be willing to buy some if that is possible?

 

[SD51555]

The book (growing cover crops profitably) says vetch can be very good for your soil, but you have to watch out for a few things. It will come back in the spring, it will set seed heads that can rest in the soil bank for a few years and cause residual problems with subsequent crops, and it'll produce a bunch of above ground biomass. If you can manage it by mowing or tilling right before it sets seed next year, I'd say go for it. If you don't have the tools to control it, I'd pass and buy a bag of pure rye.

No first hand knowledge here, but I ran to the John to check the book to see what it said. Great question, and welcome!

 

[Buffalohunter1]

Thanks guys that's what I was afraid of. Now the question I have is if I planted it this year within the next week and half and let it go until late next spring. Would you spray it with gly before it had a chance to seed out? That way it would have a chance to put some N in the ground and give me a boat load of green mature for the next crop of brassicas and turnips? But that kind of defeats the purpose of the Dipper rotation of free seed.

 

[SD51555]

I can't help ya on that one. MoBuckchaser would probably know if gly would work on that.

 

[dipper]

Summer is kicking into night gear in central wi. Drought is already curling up the corn and I am starting to see leaves drying up. Even with 3"s of above yearly rainfall, the conventional farmers are either starting to rape the ground water or starting to expect loss. No rainfall forecasted the next week, and highs in the upper 80s. She"s gonna get crisp.
These are the conditions I've been preparing for. Fall blends have mostly been planted or broadcasted. In high browse areas like the end of my funnels leading into plots, I've had rye broadcasted since mid June. That rye is sitting pretty at 6"s, not only protecting the warm season crop from excessive browse, it's protecting the soil and retaining moisture. The same can be said for the uncut clover. Smart management is the best crop insurance there is, and our options are damn near limitless. Hope everyone else's plots stay green and lush.

I'm heading north for a week.

 

[chummer]

I will get some pictures of my sweet corn trial. The end of June I broadcast WR into my sweet corn that was 1-2' tall. It had all germinated and was growing last weekend. Not sure what the corn will do, we have had a lot of nights in the 40's and a couple in the 30's. If it fails at least I will have a thick WR plot. Next to that I have sugar beets and WR I planted at the begining of June. I think that was probably a mistake as the WR is dominating the beets, but again at least the WR is thick. My two wooded plots of clover I also overseeded with WR two weeks ago. I will not touch those plots the rest of the year. My last plot is clover and still has last years WR standing. The clover looks great in the WR so I have just left it. I might spread some oats and wheat I have left and cut it this weekend but there is very little rain in the forecast so I probably will wait 2 weeks.

 

[Dave63]

Summer is kicking into night gear in central wi. Drought is already curling up the corn and I am starting to see leaves drying up. Even with 3"s of above yearly rainfall, the conventional farmers are either starting to rape the ground water or starting to expect loss. No rainfall forecasted the next week, and highs in the upper 80s. She"s gonna get crisp.
These are the conditions I've been preparing for. Fall blends have mostly been planted or broadcasted. In high browse areas like the end of my funnels leading into plots, I've had rye broadcasted since mid June. That rye is sitting pretty at 6"s, not only protecting the warm season crop from excessive browse, it's protecting the soil and retaining moisture. The same can be said for the uncut clover. Smart management is the best crop insurance there is, and our options are damn near limitless. Hope everyone else's plots stay green and lush.

I'm heading north for a week.

Drought?? Seriously?? Dont know what part of the state your in but the water table is beyond high here and corn and beans are yellowing from too much rain..

 

[dipper]

No I'm kidding.....when you have 6-12% slope, and soil that's only 10,000 years old. Of which the last 100 years it's been getting piss pounded by plows and discs....and most importantly erosion, there isn't a whole lot to hold moisture. That's also not counting the last 20 years of double cropping, but thats usually on irrigated land where you can dump water on it daily. The synthetic fertilizer only adds to the quality...I mean quantity of the crop. Yum yum
We've had a .25" the last week. No moisture and near 90 degree temps, make things look like a desert pretty quick if you don't get it. You are on one of the richest loams there is, appreciate and care for it.

 

[bueller]

Drought?? Seriously?? Dont know what part of the state your in but the water table is beyond high here and corn and beans are yellowing from too much rain..

Tomorrow marks three weeks since I planted my brassicas. I stalk the radar and weather reports and we've received only about 2" during that time with none in the short term forecast. Nearby areas have fared much better in the rainfall department. Far from a drought but I'm sure my sand is pretty darn dry right now.

 

[dipper]

The moral of the story is a food plotter needs to be aware of moisture retention, and how quickly moisture can disappear.

 

[strawhead]

dipper, or any one else..... sorry if I missed it, but as just a food plotter, do I need to inoculate the austrian winter peas I am putting in with the next round of rye,oats,radishes,peas, and clover.